105 replies to this topic

[Kyriaeus]

Tabu 73, on 02 December 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

Just saying, if the 228th could make it work why can't Rasalhague? They are a huge group divided into two branches, the competitive and the casual.

So, sometimes when you see a 12 man of 228th and you stomp them chances are you were up against the casual sector. When you face another 12 man of 228th and they crush you, chances are they were the competitive branch.

Food for thought.

The 228th probably has better-disciplined casuals. From what I've seen, a lot of FRR casuals don't want to follow unit guidelines (don't cause disruptions for 12-man drops on TS, bring comp builds if you're dropping with the comp team, etc.) because of reasons like "This is a game and I'm adult! I don't need no rules!".

They go into 12-mans knowing the drop commander's expectations, but they still take garbage mechs with ineffectual builds and fail to follow simple directions. And then they feel left out and complain when they're obviously last-in-line to be picked to fill out a 12-man or when they're not picked at all, and work up some farcical drama about how elitist the comp players are. In short, they need to know their place.

Edit: Even a lot of the self-proclaimed "competitive" players in the FRR lack discipline. They'll form a large group and the drop commander only has a vague idea of if a teammate's mech is "long range" "short range" or "LRM" instead of deciding on a cohesive team comp. I also hear people whining in the middle of a drop about how OP clan mechs are or how it's always the PUGS who lost the match for them.

Edited by Kyriaeus, 02 December 2014 - 08:28 AM.

[Jarl Dane]

Thanks Kyriaeus.
You're right it's like comparing apples and oranges.
In the Isengrim's old drops and in recent drops I've done with other units these are problems that come up. It is amazing how hard comm discipline is for some people. Or how married people are to certain sub-optimal builds and strategies.

They become dead-weight in group drops, and if CW really is hardmode, it'll be even more unforgiving.

Anywho. Back to what we were discussing before. I have been thinking about it and maybe (After Yule) holding some sort of FRR wide comp practices..getting everyone in the same page so that mixed unit drops are slightly more successful..that might be something I could handle doing. Maybe.

[Malzel]

I don't necessarily agree with that, Dane. As I pointed out earlier:

Malzel, on 30 November 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

Now, I'm not saying that you can't strike a balance between casual and competitive in your individual unit. The 1RDR did that very successfully for a while, with an active casual base and a successful comp squad on the side. What I am saying is that each unit has to be responsible for their own competitive team....

But, I can point Tabu to that same quote. You have to have all your comp players under one roof. Mixing and matching across units doesn't allow for the same level of cohesion.

The 228th works because they have the membership and logistics to support both sides of the equation, and the 1RDR is set up the same way. There's nothing stopping a unit from having both, provided both sides have some autonomy and it's not the comp guys pressuring the casual guys or vice versa, it's just about having the right mix of membership:mentality ratio to sustain both at the same time. You need, at minimum, about 10-12 dedicated guys to really sustain a competitive effort. (As long as you can muster 8 on any given night, you can pull in 4 randoms and do okay) If you're a small unit with 30 active players, that means you're going to need to be about 60%/40% casual/competitive to do that. If you're a huge unit with 100 active members, you can get away with 90%/10% casual/competitive, because that still gives you the 10 guys you need.

So it's more than possible, it's just about taking a census and realizing where you stand, as a unit. If you want an effective competitive team, but you only have 4 guys that want to play competitively, then you have some serious recruiting to do, or convince some of your membership that maybe they want to try a competitive playstyle. Otherwise, a comp squad just isn't really feasible. That's sometimes a harsh reality, especially when you're just starting out, (Took us about a year to get established enough to start winning 12s consistently) but that's just the nature of the game.

Edited by Malzel, 02 December 2014 - 09:19 AM.

[Gevurah]

I should mention if you haven't seen this post on reddit today, it's pretty much a must-read re: CW

http://www.reddit.co..._warfare_notes/

[Grim DeGrim]

I believe that this thread should conclude, err feelings be hurt.

At the risk of speaking out of turn (sorry Dane in advance), Isengrim had taken a stance on the topic. It has been voted on internally and is in full alignment with Dane' response. I cringe with each post I see trying to further the initiative.

If the rest of FRR wishes to take that route, so be it. But let us each respect the decisions that have been made individually and then wait to see how CW transpires.

Just as some players want Casual vs. Competitive, I want a small organization vs. a large one. I would not personally join a super Alliance even if it were 100% Comp.

Maintaining open communication...

[Grim DeGrim]

Gevurah, on 02 December 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

I should mention if you haven't seen this post on reddit today, it's pretty much a must-read re: CW

http://www.reddit.co..._warfare_notes/

Good read. Can't see it actually happening that way, but I'm not about to form a super Alliance based on a reddit post. We just need to wait...

[Abivard]

That reddit post is simply putting down what PGI has said. It is not speculation. FYI

The part about groups can only be made of members of the same unit could very well be the key point. If they keep it, well.....

[Magna Canus]

Exactly this is what I have been explaining the entire time.
When unit 1 occupies planet A and only has 2-4 online for a defense, they cant just join up with other known players from unit B or C, they get what they are given on a first come first serve basis. This means when the noob that just started an account accidentially presses the defend button first, he gets to drop with unit 1 to defend that planet.

You may be able to "game" the system sometimes by quickly gathering other known players and have them press the defend button, but how well and how often that works is anybodies guess. No ELO means no balancing, means no "roughly equal" teams. When you go for an attack you take your best guys and attack when you are ready. That alone is a huge advantage.

Me, I would rather have the pick of the B team on my terms than be forced to deal with randoms and lone wolves. Without decisive and cohesive cooperation the FRR may likely be lost within a couple of weeks. I would rather be prepared today for what comes tomorrow than have to go through the long process of wining back our worlds one at a time.

[Kamikaze Viking]

Gevurah, on 02 December 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

I should mention if you haven't seen this post on reddit today, it's pretty much a must-read re: CW

http://www.reddit.co..._warfare_notes/

Came here to say this

"If in a Group All Players must be from the same Unit. (Smaller Units can not group up to make bigger groups)"

This means that if we had the FRR hub full of players from different units, we cannot group together.
We would have to form small groups of unit players and attempt choose the same CW planet and hope to Sync into the same match.

This means that despite the direction of this discussion and my personal choice to stay separate, Maybe it might be better to form into Super units to give ourselves a more effective way to fight outsiders (clans, steiners or those dirty Drac's). At minimum FRR competitive and FRR casual. That way we can at least form 12 mans if we dont have enough unit members on at once (which is likely for most our our units)

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Dang! all these discussion is making me more excited for CW!

IF we form a super FRR alliance, maybe we could regroup our players into groups based on where we live. The members in each group is encouraged to train and drop with each other. (Example: Group 2 is the Oceania group, each member in Group 2 will be training and dropping together) By doing this, we can assign shifts to each groups and we'll have groups online, for pretty much 24 hours a day.
The advantage of doing this is that each group will know how the other members in that group plays, which will allow for better strategies and team work. Of course, if there is not enough players online in that group whne it's their shift, others may join in.
The only disadvantage I could think of is that the group numbers will vary. I'm sure there will be little players in the Asia/Oceania region compared to the NA

[Fenres]

If there were to be a super alliance, I would imagine it would be a work around for the unit only rule in clan warfare. Basically, we would give up the unique unit tag that is associated with our individual groups and replace it with FRR. So now we could all group up and defend a planet in a premade. Within the new faction tools is the ability to create a custom ranking system with custom titles and privileges. This could be used to define our different units in game. So basically, instead of Capt. Lt. Corp. You would have ISEN, RDR, 1stH, 5thD.

I think that's all that is truly needed at the moment. The only thing that we would be sacrificing is our in unique in game unit tag, and in return, we will be able to defend planets together.

A true universal allied FRR government with different ranking and political structure would be neat at some point farther down the road, and possibly never But I don't think that is what needs to be decided at the moment.

I think a simple FRR tag that we can switch to in order to defend our space together and not be overwhelmed is all that is needed now. No power fluctuation. At the moment, this is the only way for us to drop with mixed units for CW. This is the problem we are faced with right now, let's work towards a simple solution to that and then slowly develop a greater plan that in includes the politics involved.

[Richard Warts]

Shiroi Tsuki, on 03 December 2014 - 03:54 AM, said:

The only disadvantage I could think of is that the group numbers will vary. I'm sure there will be little players in the Asia/Oceania region compared to the NA

Isengrim has that covered, lots of Aussies

[Jarl Dane]

We're basically half Australian.

[Damon Howe]

First: Given PGI's track record, everything is subject to change.

Second: Despite all the fluff, edge, and appeal you try to give a "super alliance" discussion, we've already decided it won't happen.

So please, stop speculating. You're wasting your internet breath.

Third: I'm gonna hate myself for asking, but can we PLEASE move this discussion in a more progressive direction? Like Mech's government proposal? I'll admit I'm not on board with some points, but it's better than this dead-end topic.

Edited by Damon Howe, 03 December 2014 - 02:19 PM.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

I guess we should wait until it's released then. Give it a couple of days, and if the FRR is getting rekt, we should really create a FRR defense force.

[Grim DeGrim]

Here Here! I'm in agreement!

[Jarl Dane]

In the process of talking with other unit leaders to set up an FRR government. Hold tight for some updates on how that goes.

In the meantime, walk over to the Yule 2014 thread and get excited! Sign up!

[Grim DeGrim]

Shiroi Tsuki, on 03 December 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

I guess we should wait until it's released then. Give it a couple of days, and if the FRR is getting rekt, we should really create a FRR defense force.

Ps-some wreckage will occur. Have to bear in mind that all those players starting in one spot... In FRR territory... Need someplace to go. By map design, we are destined to lose some ground. The bigger question is "can we hold and divert pressure into neighbouring areas".

Edited by Grim DeGrim, 03 December 2014 - 03:37 PM.

[Malzel]

Physics says forces always take the paths of least resistance, and the FRR is all about resistance.

[Abivard]

Damon Howe, on 03 December 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

First: Given PGI's track record, everything is subject to change.

Second: Despite all the fluff, edge, and appeal you try to give a "super alliance" discussion, we've already decided it won't happen.

So please, stop speculating. You're wasting your internet breath.

Third: I'm gonna hate myself for asking, but can we PLEASE move this discussion in a more progressive direction? Like Mech's government proposal? I'll admit I'm not on board with some points, but it's better than this dead-end topic.

Govern away, dictate, decree play ego trips and power games, that's where the fun is.

Why try to win playing the game when you can spin the forums FTW?

Edited by Abivard, 03 December 2014 - 07:31 PM.