263 replies to this topic

[KraftySOT]

Yeah heres what I actually ran on my Doomcrow. Though I also did laser vomit, but thats expected.

SCR-PRIME

3SRM6 with art plus 5 er meds generally blows up griffins and shadowhawks in a single hit.

Though the same is said for a 3 SRM6+art 3 med laser shadowhawk against a Doomcrow. Get close so the srms dont spread and you can put 60-70 damage in the CT.

Edited by KraftySOT, 08 November 2014 - 04:13 PM.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

MischiefSC, on 08 November 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

Better players play Clans because Clan tech is better than IS tech and better players are better because they invest the time, effort and energy into classifying even the smallest advantage and maximizing the benefits. In this sort of game that's the equivalent of finding what steroid-like drugs you can take and in what doses to get away with using drugs to buff up. Everyone who's in the competitive environment does it - it's expected, in its way it's balanced towards it. It's not 'don't cheat', it's 'don't get caught cheating'.

If someone came out and said 'yeah, all the competitive teams use X aimbot' everyone would just go 'huh. That sucks, but makes sense. Where do I get it?'

NOT, by the way, accusing anyone of aimbotting. Just that min/maxing every possible benefit you can get away with is pretty much what makes competitive players more competitive. That and good practice makes someone good; not just practice on its own, so grinding matches with the best setups against other highly skilled players is what lets good folks become best folks in something.

That aside, when CW hits this is going to hit the fan. I'm calling it right now (along with everyone else who has already), the Clans are going to stomp all over the IS and people are going to get pissed and leave. IS populations in CW will decline and it'll snowball.

So my question is this - when the Clans roll the IS and the number of IS players who find that fun dwindle to a fraction of Clan players who find it fun and CW consists of Clans waiting forever to take their turn stomping on Joseph Mallan and a few of his friends and the IS players are entirely only playing matches of IS vs IS...

What's the fallback plan? I don't even have to spreadsheet and hunt up studies of behavioral dynamics to call this one pretty definitively. Clan vs Clan and IS vs IS going to be 80-90% (or more) of matches and Clanners who are willing to wait 2 hours for their turn to curbstomp the 20-40 IS players who find getting curbstomped like that 80 matches out of 100 fun?

Cuz that's what's going to happen. Your population will shift. People who like to win (and are good at winning) will migrate to IS vs IS or switch to Clan accounts (or change when given the opportunity) and snowball the situation. Elo variance between IS and Clans will grow, even if overall Elo in IS isn't that bad they won't want to play games stacked against them (which, and let's be clear, is exactly what we're talking about. You're saying a 10% predetermined advantage towards Clans is your goal give or take) and so they'll move to IS vs IS Community Warfare and Clans will struggle to find Clan vs IS matches, which will in turn put more pressure on the IS folks who remain who will in turn move to IS vs IS, etc. etc.

Elo only works with sufficient population density. I'm a big fan of Elo Russ, that doesn't mean I don't understand the limitations it does have. Out of the gate you were talking IS and Clans being balanced. If they're not balanced then competitive players will go Clans and non-competitive players are not going to get fed into that machine very many times before they go elsewhere.

At which point you've trained the players NOT to enjoy CW if they're IS and if they're Clan they will have an expectation of winning, both of which are difficult to shift later on. Clanners will get really pissed if it changes after the fact to 50/50; they'll feel like they're being 'cheated' because you got them used to playing with an advantage and then took it away. IS will feel like Clans are way OP and 'cheaty' and be bitter about the whole thing.

So, calling it now. a 60/40 Community Warfare environment is a bad idea and will go poorly.

Actually I'm half expecting the IS to pick missions against other IS factions and avoid fighting against the Clans, leaving the Clans to fight each other.

But yeah, I have a feeling CW is going to really cause the proverbial *!&^# to hit the fan.

[RG Notch]

Ultimatum X, on 08 November 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

Think so?

This is what tonnage you have when you can't customize the Stock engine, stock structure and stock armor.


http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6bb902683b24ae9


Good luck filling out those hardpoints with 8 tons of "podspace".

That would depend on variant. 5M has 25 free tons I believe.

[Lily from animove]

MischiefSC, on 08 November 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

Better players play Clans because Clan tech is better than IS tech and better players are better because they invest the time, effort and energy into classifying even the smallest advantage and maximizing the benefits. In this sort of game that's the equivalent of finding what steroid-like drugs you can take and in what doses to get away with using drugs to buff up. Everyone who's in the competitive environment does it - it's expected, in its way it's balanced towards it. It's not 'don't cheat', it's 'don't get caught cheating'.

If someone came out and said 'yeah, all the competitive teams use X aimbot' everyone would just go 'huh. That sucks, but makes sense. Where do I get it?'

NOT, by the way, accusing anyone of aimbotting. Just that min/maxing every possible benefit you can get away with is pretty much what makes competitive players more competitive. That and good practice makes someone good; not just practice on its own, so grinding matches with the best setups against other highly skilled players is what lets good folks become best folks in something.

That aside, when CW hits this is going to hit the fan. I'm calling it right now (along with everyone else who has already), the Clans are going to stomp all over the IS and people are going to get pissed and leave. IS populations in CW will decline and it'll snowball.

So my question is this - when the Clans roll the IS and the number of IS players who find that fun dwindle to a fraction of Clan players who find it fun and CW consists of Clans waiting forever to take their turn stomping on Joseph Mallan and a few of his friends and the IS players are entirely only playing matches of IS vs IS...

What's the fallback plan? I don't even have to spreadsheet and hunt up studies of behavioral dynamics to call this one pretty definitively. Clan vs Clan and IS vs IS going to be 80-90% (or more) of matches and Clanners who are willing to wait 2 hours for their turn to curbstomp the 20-40 IS players who find getting curbstomped like that 80 matches out of 100 fun?

Cuz that's what's going to happen. Your population will shift. People who like to win (and are good at winning) will migrate to IS vs IS or switch to Clan accounts (or change when given the opportunity) and snowball the situation. Elo variance between IS and Clans will grow, even if overall Elo in IS isn't that bad they won't want to play games stacked against them (which, and let's be clear, is exactly what we're talking about. You're saying a 10% predetermined advantage towards Clans is your goal give or take) and so they'll move to IS vs IS Community Warfare and Clans will struggle to find Clan vs IS matches, which will in turn put more pressure on the IS folks who remain who will in turn move to IS vs IS, etc. etc.

Elo only works with sufficient population density. I'm a big fan of Elo Russ, that doesn't mean I don't understand the limitations it does have. Out of the gate you were talking IS and Clans being balanced. If they're not balanced then competitive players will go Clans and non-competitive players are not going to get fed into that machine very many times before they go elsewhere.

At which point you've trained the players NOT to enjoy CW if they're IS and if they're Clan they will have an expectation of winning, both of which are difficult to shift later on. Clanners will get really pissed if it changes after the fact to 50/50; they'll feel like they're being 'cheated' because you got them used to playing with an advantage and then took it away. IS will feel like Clans are way OP and 'cheaty' and be bitter about the whole thing.

So, calling it now. a 60/40 Community Warfare environment is a bad idea and will go poorly.

your logic is invalid, if IS guys go clan because getting rolled over, that would mean the baddoies mostly go clan, evening the stuff out because the dedicated hardcore IS fans will be left able to club the clanseals which suddenly suck because they have the clanmechs that are actzually not good in their hands.

[Alex Warden Wolf]

i played one of those matches...clan side (solo que)... we wiped the floor with the IS guys... but maybe theywere just that bad or smth... +shrug+

[Vassago Rain]

Lily from animove, on 08 November 2014 - 05:46 PM, said:

your logic is invalid, if IS guys go clan because getting rolled over, that would mean the baddoies mostly go clan, evening the stuff out because the dedicated hardcore IS fans will be left able to club the clanseals which suddenly suck because they have the clanmechs that are actzually not good in their hands.

The point is PGI spent years making IS robots that won't be used by anyone if clan robots are superior.

Since this game will be clan on one side, and IS on the other, IS is gonna lose players. And that's bad.

There are very few 'dedicated IS fanboys.' I'm one of them, but I'm not gonna play IS robots when my stuff is obviously much worse than what the other guys get.

[Ragnar Darkmane]

Lily from animove, on 08 November 2014 - 05:46 PM, said:

your logic is invalid, if IS guys go clan because getting rolled over, that would mean the baddoies mostly go clan, evening the stuff out because the dedicated hardcore IS fans will be left able to club the clanseals which suddenly suck because they have the clanmechs that are actzually not good in their hands.

Assuming there are still good players left in sufficient numbers that actually bother to play the handicapped side. All those good players that only have their stats in their mind (the most useless thing ever in a game where the stats aren't even public) and just like the feeling of pwning stuff easy mode style always gravitate towards the most easy to use and powerful (/OP) builds/mechs/weapons/whatever...

Once CW actually starts in honest I'd be surprised if there is anything but utter Clan Dominance, especially as far as Clan Wolf is concerned. Doubt there'll be enough players to even sufficently stuff factions with less popular mechs and background like the Combine or Liao either when faced by overpopulated Clans, doubt hardcore faction/RP guys like me will be enough.

Edited by Ragnar Darkmane, 08 November 2014 - 05:58 PM.

[Kain Demos]

Ragnar Darkmane, on 08 November 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

Assuming there are still good players left in sufficient numbers that actually bother to play the handicapped side. All those good players that only have their stats in their mind (the most useless thing ever in a game where the stats aren't even public) and just like the feeling of pwning stuff easy mode style always gravitate towards the most easy to use and powerful (/OP) builds/mechs/weapons/whatever...

Once CW actually starts in honest I'd be surprised if there is anything but utter Clan Dominance, especially as far as Clan Wolf is concerned. Doubt there'll be enough players to even sufficently stuff factions with less popular mechs and background like the Combine or Liao either when faced by overpopulated Clans, doubt hardcore faction/RP guys like me will be enough.

Steiner and Davion will probably have good numbers. The other 3 houses probably not.

[Lily from animove]

Vassago Rain, on 08 November 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

The point is PGI spent years making IS robots that won't be used by anyone if clan robots are superior.

Since this game will be clan on one side, and IS on the other, IS is gonna lose players. And that's bad.

There are very few 'dedicated IS fanboys.' I'm one of them, but I'm not gonna play IS robots when my stuff is obviously much worse than what the other guys get.

and thats what sucks, why you always say "clan" the only MECHS that are kinda op are DW, SCR and TBr, btu thats not because they are clan, thas because the way they are, give these chassis and hardpoints the IS and you have OP mechs there as well.

balance has to be done on chassis level primarily, then on weapon level. but clan or IS is hardly anything that will achieve balance for the game. Where are the adders and novas? PGI also spend a lot time making those, yet you hardly see them.

[Aresye]

Vassago Rain, on 08 November 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

There are very few 'dedicated IS fanboys.' I'm one of them, but I'm not gonna play IS robots when my stuff is obviously much worse than what the other guys get.

But they aren't "much worse." You can still do well in IS mechs.

Originally switching back to my IS mechs meant I had a challenge. I had to play smart and make absolutely no mistakes. Now, after multiple nerfs to Clan mechs, and the recent IS quirks, playing IS just feels like a different flavor, and my scores are more consistent between each other for the same amount of effort put in. I can make mistakes and still live to continue fighting, and overall it feels like it's in a really good place now.

The problem with IS mechs is there's less customization in regards to what you can take. Clan mechs can take a variety of loadouts and still remain effective, but IS mechs are more of a puzzle because of heavier weapons and larger crits.

In other words, you can have 5 different Timberwolf loadouts that are effective, but a Shadowhawk only has 2 different configurations that can put up a good performance.

[Ultimax]

The Boz, on 08 November 2014 - 03:26 PM, said:

Good job sticking an STD engine and single heat sinks in there...

EDIT: This is what you'd actually get to play with. Going from 8 to 22 tons is a pretty big deal. Also, lighter and smaller weapons.

I'll assume you weren't following the conversation and therefore missed the point.







That would the stock locked items for a shadowhawk.

Sorry, no changing engine, no changing structure, no changing armor, no removing your built in heat sinks, no upgrading heatsinks.

You get 8 tons. Enjoy.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Ultimatum X, on 08 November 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

I'll assume you weren't following the conversation and therefore missed the point.







That would the stock locked items for a shadowhawk.

Sorry, no changing engine, no changing structure, no changing armor, no removing your built in heat sinks, no upgrading heatsinks.

You get 8 tons. Enjoy.

I was able to fit 3 flamers and SRM2s with hardly any ammo. If only it had flamer quirks!

[MischiefSC]

Lily from animove, on 08 November 2014 - 05:46 PM, said:

your logic is invalid, if IS guys go clan because getting rolled over, that would mean the baddoies mostly go clan, evening the stuff out because the dedicated hardcore IS fans will be left able to club the clanseals which suddenly suck because they have the clanmechs that are actzually not good in their hands.

No, the logic is perfectly valid. High Elo folks will already be largely in Clans. Those high Elo players who remain with the IS will avoid IS vs Clan battles and only opt into IS vs IS battles, leaving the IS vs Clan battles deeply skewed. There are plenty of low Elo players in Clan mechs but because of Clan techs superior nature they will still have an edge against equally derp players in IS tech. For Elo to function you need higher Elo players on the IS side playing against moderate Elo players on the Clan side. The issue is that high Elo Clan players will still be in the mix and grinding mid/high level players in IS mechs often enough that it starts the cycle I listed above.

Edited by MischiefSC, 08 November 2014 - 07:41 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Damien Tokala, on 06 November 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

Clans won 64%

there are still some energy reliant clan mechs that are not as efficient as they should be... IE nova. there are some brawler types that aren't as efficient as they once were before jump jet changes, IE summoner. there are some that need additional pods due the the fixed jets people don't want, IE timberwolf and kit fox.

and when an awesome can fire PPCs like a clan UAC, you know there's something wrong there.

Yes I agree with you here. The Clans got a few really good mechs followed by some very mediocre to awful mechs. Nova downright sucks now and the Summoner and Adder look so bad on paper and based on popular opinion that I will never buy either even with C-bills. These definitely need to get quirked or have some new pods introduced or something, at least if we want to have any real diversity to clan mechs in game. Otherwise, people will end up just playing Timber Wolves, Stormcrows and Direwolfs all the time.

[Andi Nagasia]

question?

ever since the quirks came out ive been running my LCT in allot of different trial builds,
played maybe 10+ matches a day, most of them i didn't do good in and didn't make much C-bills,
but i did have allot of fun with all the new quirks, and love how they mesh with my LCT,
now after i played maybe 8+ matches with my decked out KFX to relax some,

so question if i was just TRYING OUT my LCT, and was just playing to try them out,
but after when i WAS playing TO WIN with my KFX to relax and earn C-bills,

wouldn't my numbers show i got more loses with my IS LCT, then my CLAN KFX?
wouldn't that make my numbers off and my Clan scores seem better?

i think we need a good week or two before a real week end 48+ hour IS vs Clan,
thoughts?

Edit- Spelling,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 08 November 2014 - 09:11 PM.

[kapusta11]

Ultimatum X, on 08 November 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

I'll assume you weren't following the conversation and therefore missed the point.







That would the stock locked items for a shadowhawk.

Sorry, no changing engine, no changing structure, no changing armor, no removing your built in heat sinks, no upgrading heatsinks.

You get 8 tons. Enjoy.

Stop playing fool, the point was "Give IS same avantages", then you can lock equipment however you want. Clan pros make it up for the cons tenfold.

[Alek Ituin]

kapusta11, on 08 November 2014 - 11:32 PM, said:

Stop playing fool, the point was "Give IS same avantages", then you can lock equipment however you want. Clan pros make it up for the cons tenfold.

I think that the Clan chassis without Endo+Ferro (Or just Ferro) would disagree with you wholeheartedly. Because they're all the terrible chassis that barely anybody uses anymore like the Suckoner, Warhawk (Peace Dove?), and Nope-va. It'd be great is the Suckoner and Nope-va could use Endo+Ferro... Maybe they wouldn't be bad chassis.

Oh, what about the Kit Fox and Badder? Lights that can barely break 100kph, I bet you they'd love to be able to swap engines and get some speed so they're not getting outrun by Mediums. HAH, and lets not forget the Warhawk and its 80 billion hardwired DHS! It'd be great to be able to drop some of those damn things...

Clan Mechs aren't all flowers and sunshine you know. They do have downsides, and the downsides they do have pretty much break the chassis. IS Mechs don't really have that issue, because you can change 95% of the bad things on any given IS chassis.

Edited by Alek Ituin, 09 November 2014 - 01:57 AM.

[The Boz]

Ultimatum X, on 08 November 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

I'll assume you weren't following the conversation and therefore missed the point.







That would the stock locked items for a shadowhawk.

Sorry, no changing engine, no changing structure, no changing armor, no removing your built in heat sinks, no upgrading heatsinks.

You get 8 tons. Enjoy.

When people say "make it like clan", that means XL engines and double heatsinks, for start. And although you can't customize it, most Clan mechs come with ES or FF or both. You are being intentionally dense.

[Sjorpha]

Ultimatum X, on 08 November 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

Think so?

This is what tonnage you have when you can't customize the Stock engine, stock structure and stock armor.


http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6bb902683b24ae9


Good luck filling out those hardpoints with 8 tons of "podspace".

I said "apply the mechanics as is"

...which obviously means a clan 275 XL engine. That's 17.5 tons of pod space if you use the 5K Base with all it's pods.(you couldn't have 2 fixed clan double heatsinks in the legs obviously, plus changing legs is trivial): http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f1d45b27411b781 Or 19.5 if you change the legs.

Though most people would build around the 5M CT to get endo steel, giving around 24 tons of pod space depending on which other pods you use and whether they have fixed heatsinks (which would obviously be clan DHS) etc. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4a3d1426555cd63

The 7E, 5M hardpoint configuration would use the 2d2 CT, legs and head, with 2K STs, 2D LA and 5M RA. It would have 19.5 tons of pod space with armour maxed (-2 pts in head). More than enough to use those hardpoints. 89kph elited with 4 JJs, fill all those hardpoints with clan small lasers and srms or streaks, it would be an absolute monster.

Obviously if you were to lock down IS std engines it would be as you say, but that would have zero to do with what I said so it's completely irrelevant as the argument is about whether the clan advantages (including engines, equipment and weapons) sums up to more than the IS advantages, and they clearly do.

Edited by Sjorpha, 09 November 2014 - 03:34 AM.

[The Boz]

It's called a straw man argument.