263 replies to this topic

[Alek Ituin]

The Boz, on 09 November 2014 - 03:00 AM, said:

When people say "make it like clan", that means XL engines and double heatsinks, for start. And although you can't customize it, most Clan mechs come with ES or FF or both. You are being intentionally dense.

Except Clan Mechs come with whatever is stock for the chassis. IS Mechs generally don't have DHS, Endo, Ferro, or XL engines when stock. Ergo, IS Mechs using MWO's Clan customization rules would be stuck with whatever crap they had when bought, nothing else.

Sucks, doesn't it?

[The Boz]

It's almost as if they're... underpowered.
YEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA--!

[Alek Ituin]

The Boz, on 09 November 2014 - 04:15 AM, said:

It's almost as if they're... underpowered.
YEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA--!

It's almost as if they're... stock chassis designed before mass proliferation of Lostech within the Inner Sphere, pre-Invasion...

Yeeaaaahhhh...?

(In other words, they're supposed to be incredibly basic. Most were designed and built pre-3028, or they're 100+ years old and being held together with duct tape and twine, using the same basic tech because all the old stuff broke.)

Edited by Alek Ituin, 09 November 2014 - 04:24 AM.

[Nik Reaper]

God damit , it so simple , give IS "Light engines" ( 3/4 standard engine weight and same size as clan engines, no 1 side torso death ) and then clan mechs will need a buff... , sure it's future tech but who really cares if it brings balance x) .

Edited by Nik Reaper, 09 November 2014 - 04:32 AM.

[Alek Ituin]

Nik Reaper, on 09 November 2014 - 04:31 AM, said:

God damit , it so simple , give IS "Light engines" ( 3/4 standard engine weight and same size as clan engines, no 1 side torso death ) and then clan mechs will need a buff... , sure it's future tech but who really cares if it brings balance x) .

This. Bring in IS 3060 tech... And XXL engines, because they're 5x the cost of a normal XL engine of the same size.

[Fragnot]

Kiiyor, on 06 November 2014 - 03:08 PM, said:

You should run an event - pure Clan VS the 'Sphere, over a weekend.

^^ This would be fun ^^

[IceSerpent]

[redacted]

Neither Elo in general nor MWO implementation specifically is exactly a big secret.

Edited by Egomane, 09 November 2014 - 11:22 AM.
removed quote and insulting response

[MischiefSC]

IceSerpent, on 09 November 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

[redacted] Neither Elo in general nor MWO implementation specifically is exactly a big secret.

Was just about to put that up. I swear I've posted links to the original Elo breakdown like 50 times if not 150 in just about every Elo thread ever made. We know everything about Elo except our own exact scores; we know how it's calculated, we know how it's used, we have screenshots of PGIs monitoring system showing exactly what the breakdown of matches looks like and how they track Elo and weight class matching.

Generally we know these things *before* they are put into game play.

Edited by Egomane, 09 November 2014 - 11:22 AM.
quote cleaned up

[Andi Nagasia]

even if balance is off or not, i Feel clans should get Quirks,
and each Omni-pod needs to get its own Quirks, why?


1) why Quirk them? it would help with balancing under-preforming Clan Mechs,
.......i dont think we need to huge quirks but some to help with balance,
2) why Quirk the Omni-Pods, right now why do you choose an Omni-pod over another? Hard-points!
......thats the only reason, having each pod have their own Quirks would give reason to chose certain ones,
3) you could always Balance both IS or Clan Quirks if things get out of hand,

example, using a WHK, what if?
WHK-P, LT= ER-PPC Velocity +10%, heat generation -5%
WHK-A, LT= Energy weapon Cool-down -10%, heat generation -5%
WHK-B, LT= MIssile weapon Cool-down -10%, heat generation -5%
Give us a reason to use different Omni-pods,

as i stated on Page 8 i believe this would help greatly,
giving reason to choose non-META Clan builds,

thoughts?
thanks

Edit- spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 09 November 2014 - 11:12 AM.

[Egomane]

I'd like to remind everyone that we expect you to participate in constructive arguments without insulting each other. I removed a few posts that were... well... not nice!

Even if you disagree, please respect the opinion of others.

You might want to read the code of conduct once more, but I could also give you the short form of it: Be nice!

[Mordin Ashe]

Scratch the three good chassis Clans have, we have many very bad Mechs and it looks like everything in Wave 2 is going to be very weak as well. Reason? No tonnage for loadouts. Ice Ferret isn't bad and the speed is very appealing, but 9tons? Really? The new light and assault are going to be the same case, they have speed but speed doesn't mean anything because you aren't Jenner or Ember to back it up with weaponry. Mad Dog is rather good, and why? Weapons. It has very good hardpoints and while lacking behind the TW, it isn't fault of that chassis. Mechs like Kit Fox, Adder and others are out of question, PGI can look how many Adders or Novas were purchased by players for c-bills and see for themselves how popular these are. We all know why.

Now the holy trinity, TW, DW and SC. I suppose it should be possible to redesign each chassis so that each has some special abilities. PGI can even give different engines and non-removable equipment on them so that each and everone would be different. The problem is, you can't refuse to do something with bad Clan mechs because those three are designed to be too good. Alter the three good so that they are on par with the rest and help the weak guys cause they are piling up and we don't know what to do with them anymore.

[The Boz]

...and I suppose every IS mech you see is the cream of the crop, right? No Locusts, nope, none, never.

[RiggsIron]

Yeah...

As already said - 64% win rate = 36% win rate for IS.

2-1 ratio.

Since Clan pack costs $240...

Pay to win, or enjoy losing most of the time?

[Brody319]

RiggsIron, on 09 November 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

Yeah...

As already said - 64% win rate = 36% win rate for IS.

2-1 ratio.

Since Clan pack costs $240...

Pay to win, or enjoy losing most of the time?

these statistics are a quick snap shot, they need like a weeks worth of testing before I think we can get a good statistic.

[Andi Nagasia]

The Boz, on 09 November 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

...and I suppose every IS mech you see is the cream of the crop, right? No Locusts, nope, none, never.

hey i love my LCT-3M, 5ML, BAP, 3DHS, 169kph,
so short everything bigger than a Jenner can shoot over it, LCT for LIFE,

its the only Mech i kept when i defected to the Clans,
(i didn't buy any packs, i get them when they come out for C-Bills)

Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 09 November 2014 - 02:04 PM.

[Aresye]

MischiefSC, on 09 November 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

Was just about to put that up. I swear I've posted links to the original Elo breakdown like 50 times if not 150 in just about every Elo thread ever made. We know everything about Elo except our own exact scores; we know how it's calculated, we know how it's used, we have screenshots of PGIs monitoring system showing exactly what the breakdown of matches looks like and how they track Elo and weight class matching.

Generally we know these things *before* they are put into game play.

So using the probability formula posted on that thread and plugging in a 100 Elo difference, the probability of the lower Elo beating the higher Elo comes out to 29%. Or a 71% chance of the higher Elo beating the lower Elo.

On the higher end of the spectrum with a 120 Elo difference, the probability of the lower Elo beating the higher Elo comes out to 25% (75% chance of the higher Elo winning).

So technically, the Clan side should have won between 71-75% of games with an Elo separation between 100-120, which means...

...the IS side was actually performing better and winning more matches than predicted.

ggthread

[Metus regem]

RiggsIron, on 09 November 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

Yeah...

As already said - 64% win rate = 36% win rate for IS.

2-1 ratio.

Since Clan pack costs $240...

Pay to win, or enjoy losing most of the time?

-sigh-

Again someone who is throwing around a term with out thinking about it... Not one clan mech from wave 1 or 2 will be locked behind a pay wall forever. It is more like pay to use early. The only mechs that are locked behind a pay wall are hero's and anything with a special letter designator. I wish people would think before they post sometimes.....

[Kain Demos]

Metus regem, on 09 November 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:

I wish people would think before they post sometimes.....

Unfortunately most won't.

[MischiefSC]

Aresye, on 09 November 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

So using the probability formula posted on that thread and plugging in a 100 Elo difference, the probability of the lower Elo beating the higher Elo comes out to 29%. Or a 71% chance of the higher Elo beating the lower Elo.

On the higher end of the spectrum with a 120 Elo difference, the probability of the lower Elo beating the higher Elo comes out to 25% (75% chance of the higher Elo winning).

So technically, the Clan side should have won between 71-75% of games with an Elo separation between 100-120, which means...

...the IS side was actually performing better and winning more matches than predicted.

ggthread

The IS needs to be winning ~50%. In fact a 45/55 spread is going to be problematic over time given the 'collect tokens' approach to taking planets.

You're not going to have a situation where you've got more IS players and better IS players than Clan players. To do that you'd have to control player behavior, which isn't going to happen.

There will be more Clan players and the most competitive players will gravitate to Clans, all because Clan tech is superior than IS tech (even if it's just a few mechs, those 3 or 4 mechs can fill the roles of 20 IS mechs via omnipods). So you're going to have the Clans rolling the IS.

The result of that will be an exodus of IS players from IS vs Clan play. You'll have Joe and a handful of like-minded folk getting rolled again and again and again while most the IS play is IS vs IS. Any sort of matchmaking will fail and fail completely due to insufficiently deep populations.

You're not going to get any significant group of people to happily go grind out matches that they lose 2/3rds of.

If Clan vs IS tech is not absolutely 50/50 or within a couple % of that then CW is doomed before it starts. It's a concept based on results averaged over time. If after 100 tokens have been earned and one side, even if player skill/population distribution was perfectly homogeneous between the sides, is going to win 55 of them based on tech advantage and the other 45 due to being at an overall disadvantage you're dooming the whole process.

Quirks are a good start. CW without IS/Clan balance will fail. To pretend that people will behave contrary to human behavior and their own interests overall as a population average is not reasonable or rational. Saying 'yes, well, Clans should win most the time' is all well and good - until it happens and suddenly most people either only play Clans or only play IS vs IS. Then what do the Clans do?

They play Clan vs Clan or they wait 30 minutes for their turn to stomp on Joseph Mallan, two other people who just love the IS vs Clan dynamic even when they lose 2/3rds of their matches, and 9 nubs who decide the game sucks and will never play it again.

A 100 pt difference is a 25/75 prediction. A 36/64 would be about a 71 pt variation in Elo. They may have a prediction variable based on relative tonnage, gleaned from historical data. Wouldn't surprise me.

No crystal ball or complex math required to say what happens if CW isn't pretty perfectly balanced for IS vs Clans though.

[Valcoer]

I did my own test. it consisted of me using my centurion with weapons that take advantage of the buffs and the stormcrow that has no buffs.
Using your latest contest
out of nine matches with my centurion zero qualified.
out of nine matches with my stormcrow five qualified.
It quickly became apparent that if I waned to complete any challenges in a medium mech I would have to use my storm crow and not my centurion. because I wanted to complete the final challenge I no longer am using my centurion for the duration of the challenge.

This is a better indication of the superiority of the clan mechs. I firmly believe that I could not complete any of these challenges in a centurion no matter how many games I played in it.

Post Script: I only own one stormcrow. I own three centurions, two of which were free. due to limited number of mechbays I do no keep excess mechs after mastering. both mechs were mastered mechs.