263 replies to this topic

[Naduk]

that number seems low enough (eps given the higher elo diff) to run a long term test
advertise in game that its going to happen to avoid back lash
test for a week or two and see how it goes
if it goes well we can just leave it on

both teams will need to time adjust to how they fight with out each others strengths backing them up
the meta needs time to adjust and show you what the real balance is like

[KraftySOT]

There wont be 10 v 12.


That aside 64% is encouraging. Thats a great starting point for CW. Im sure its a few % lower once it hits CW, and frankly, you want the clans taking more territory than everyone, about 10% more, to keep the map moving in a way you want it.

They can of course use an event at some point to slow down the map, and continue with development of quirks, other mechs, and someday, god willing, things like ER Medium lasers and such that come online for the IS after 3052. Then the balance is pretty much the same between the two and CW can run, forever...

[DocBach]

Kanatta Jing, on 06 November 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

I think the logic goes like this...

64% doubles becomes 1 Clan Mech equals 1.28 IS Mechs thus 10 Can Mechs = 12.8 IS Mechs.

If we assume the .8 extra IS mechs will round down as IS pilots adjust to them we can move onto 10 vs 12 matches in Community Warefare.

I'm sold. Lets do more testing on 10 vs 12.

If that's not enough, hit Clanners in the checkbook when they act like dishonorable Spheroid freebirths -- instead of bonuses for flanking and staying with their group they get penalized if they don't go out trying to get glory and honor for just themselves.

[Angry Kylo Ren]

Russ - to normalize this result, please tell us what's the Norma win rate between two teams with a 120+ ELO difference...then there will be a more accurate measure.

[Aresye]

IceSerpent, on 06 November 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

55-45 range with this kind of Elo advantage wouldn't be good at all.

Yup!

Convenient how many folks seem to have missed the, "Clans had a 100-120 Elo advantage," part. In which case, a perfect 50/50 would actually mean Clans are worse than IS given the Elo advantage.

[Angry Kylo Ren]

Also within clans themselves there must be some awareness that there is a huge divide. Timberwolf, dire wolf, stormcrow are massively better than the rest. Summoner, nova, ice ferret, adder, kitfox could arguably use some buffs while the timby (doesn't seem as dominant since the jj lock) and especially direwolf and stormcrow may need a sight nerf

[R Razor]

TL:DR......clans win 2 for every 1 the IS wins...... clans still make more $$$ for PGI.......working as intended.

[Angry Kylo Ren]

Sorry to spam - but quite worried here. Just to be clear:

- effect of ELO needs to be considered before any further clan nerfs or is buffs.
- please don't make a sweeping clan change that brings some mechs in line but in doing so makes others useless (nova is already there)
- consider that some clan mechs actually need positive buffs right now (nova, ice ferret)

[Scratx]

Aresye, on 06 November 2014 - 03:51 PM, said:

Yup!

Convenient how many folks seem to have missed the, "Clans had a 100-120 Elo advantage," part. In which case, a perfect 50/50 would actually mean Clans are worse than IS given the Elo advantage.

This. Even the last ISvClan test with 73% win rate for clans was not that much of a steamroller, the ELO diff said 60-65% clan victory was expectable.

What I'm curious about, and it is something PGI could actually tell us, is how likely the higher ELO team is to win based on ELO diff. Can even be determined experimentally by checking the solo match database, select by ELO diff and check win rate of the teams with the higher ELO.

Should produce either an ascending slope or a curve, I'd expect... Yes, I'm curious.

[Kain Demos]

R Razor, on 06 November 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

TL:DR......clans win 2 for every 1 the IS wins...... clans still make more $$$ for PGI.......working as intended.

Apparently you didn't read (so no need for the TLDR part as we can tell) or you would have seen the ELO advantage was in the favor of the clams.

Edited by Kain Thul, 06 November 2014 - 03:57 PM.

[Angry Kylo Ren]

R Razor, on 06 November 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

TL:DR......clans win 2 for every 1 the IS wins...... clans still make more $$$ for PGI.......working as intended.

Nope. They are pushing IS mech packs now. That's why all the IS pilots are getting easy mode quirks so they can play without worrying about things like heat management.

[bar10jim]

Diss, on 06 November 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

IS losing 2/3 of games doesnt look to good actually. Need to be in the 55-45 range at the worst.

Also, new clan med out. Need to do again in 10 days see where its at once people go back to regular mechs.

You didn't read the post correctly. He also said "most matches I observed were around 100-120 ELO advantage to the Clan team."

With an ELO advantage in that range, having a 64% win percentage is actually a good number. What I would like to know is: what was the Clan win% when they were at an ELO disadvantage?

[BARBAR0SSA]

Kain Thul, on 06 November 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

That would really **** things up. Right now the Clams only have two assault 'mechs and I probably see 8 Dire Wolves to every 1 Warhawk. The clam teams would always be on the "light side" if those 'mechs were excluded.

That's sort of the point. If ALL clan mechs are as OP as people think it wouldn't change it, I however have a feeling it should drop that last %14 or so.

CW will of course shine a light on this much better with tonnage limits. This is my primary concern. Think of it this way, if a team was made up of Adders, Novas, Summoners and Warhawks, would it be %64? or would IS run through them? Probably and then it's the problem in reverse.

IS has enough selection of mechs you can pick from a few strong ones in each weight class compared to the clans very limited selection.

Edited by shad0w4life, 06 November 2014 - 04:02 PM.

[orcrist86]

Is the ideal elo spread more like 75 based on your data?

[F4T 4L]

Kanatta Jing, on 06 November 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

I think the logic goes like this...

64% doubles becomes 1 Clan Mech equals 1.28 IS Mechs thus 10 Can Mechs = 12.8 IS Mechs.

If we assume the .8 extra IS mechs will round down as IS pilots adjust to them we can move onto 10 vs 12 matches in Community Warefare.

No thanks.

[Summon3r]

Russ Bullock, on 06 November 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

Clans won 64%



Yes

are u saying mechs like the Summoner dont need some serious help?

[Diss]

So how will PGI force Elo balance then?

If the Elo is always gonna be Clan advantage, why even bother with cw?

Why cant they lock Max Elo diffrence to 50 for IS vs Clan and get a real test?

If Clans are always gonna have a Elo advantage, CW is gonna suck.

Am I missing something?

[Kiiyor]

Wow. So this has escalated quickly.

Some points to keep in the back of your heads:

• ELO was balanced towards the clans in this test.
  
• There likely wasn't a large number of matches.
  
  • The timeframe was short, and the sample size is likely not truly large enough to paint a true picture of faction balance.
• There are likely a large number of un-mastered 'Sphere mechs.
  
  • I know -I- am trying out previously craptacular robots.
    
  • Most clan mechs, barring the IceFerret, will likely be mastered.

I would say that unless there is a far larger test, you shouldn't pin all your passion and rage upon the win statistic. Instead of screaming for nerfs/buffs, instead call for a larger test.

[Davers]

Scratx, on 06 November 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

This. Even the last ISvClan test with 73% win rate for clans was not that much of a steamroller, the ELO diff said 60-65% clan victory was expectable.

What I'm curious about, and it is something PGI could actually tell us, is how likely the higher ELO team is to win based on ELO diff. Can even be determined experimentally by checking the solo match database, select by ELO diff and check win rate of the teams with the higher ELO.

Should produce either an ascending slope or a curve, I'd expect... Yes, I'm curious.

With a 100 point advantage, the team with the higher Elo should win 64% of the time. Hey, look, Elo works in MW:O just fine.

[Mcgral18]

R Razor, on 06 November 2014 - 04:06 PM, said:

Poor wittle baby, worried that your Timby will finally be brought into line with the rest of the mechs in the game? Or maybe it's your Stormy that you're upset about? I feel for you if you're so lacking in ability that you can't play against a balanced opponent pal. It's okay though, you probably grew up getting a trophy just for showing up at the game anyway so this should be right up your alley.

I don't suppose you're going to ignore the 6 bad ones, and only mention the 3 good ones?


Typical.