263 replies to this topic

[SaltBeef]

I disagree I would play all of my mechs like I do now! IS or Clan. I do not see you argument as valid!

[Andi Nagasia]

why does Everyone feel that Quirks need to be huge buffs,
as i stated Page 7 of this topic, of every peice of a clan mech gets a quirk,
then there will be reasons to by all variants, and diffrences between Omni-pods,
BESIDES the hard-points on those Pods, even if its a small 3-5% boost on a nova,

having the full NVA-P could give a boost of 21-35% heat reduction bonus,
but they have to take ALL prime parts, this will give us reasons to choose,
right now its just all my legs are exactly the same why by NVA-P legs?

[SweetJackal]

SaltBeef, on 07 November 2014 - 08:59 PM, said:

I disagree I would play all of my mechs like I do now! IS or Clan. I do not see you argument as valid!

If you are going to argue the psychology behind video games then provide your own examples to back up your own opinion and viewpoint. You can see that very thought process in terms of faction selection in the history of Planetside 2, when a faction would receive buffs to the point that it would be perceived to be more powerful and have a higher impact per player than the others you would see the 4th Faction (as it has been dubbed) flood into that faction and the server population values would swing accordingly. This idea of wanting to have the most impact per player is the reason why the vast majority of players in MWO were running Heavies and Assaults before the queue became regulated and the reason why we see a dominance in what is supposed to be The Meta.

Your own desires do not matter as players do think differently. Broad strokes like this only provide an outline for the majority and where we have seen and would see the data lay. There are players that play as dedicated Supports in DOTA styled games and those that only played Healers or Tanks in the MMO Trinity design. There are always those that break out of the expected model but those players are a minority.

So why do you not see this analysis as valid?

[SaltBeef]

I am saying I have spent $1500 bucks on my IS and Clan mechs and That I would play them both in CW! Allow Split faction during the same period. Money talks BS walks.

[SweetJackal]

SaltBeef, on 07 November 2014 - 09:22 PM, said:

I am saying I have spent $1500 bucks on my IS and Clan mechs and That I would play them both in CW! Allow Split faction during the same period. Money talks BS walks.

Congratulations! So what about the rest of the playerbase?

[SaltBeef]

Pony up! Or F2P their choice. Trail mechs are free. Mechbays get giveaways every few months.

[kf envy]

well Russ thax for forcing me into only getting to use an timber wolf

[kapusta11]

Well, if the goal is to balance IS vs Clans then:
Give IS Mediums and Heavies an ability to shoot two consecutive 45-50 damage laser alphas with 450m min range
Give IS Assaults the thing above AND 30 FLD
Give IS Clan XL engines

That would be a good start

Edited by kapusta11, 07 November 2014 - 11:41 PM.

[SweetJackal]

kapusta11, on 07 November 2014 - 11:37 PM, said:

Well, if the goal is to balance IS vs Clans then:
Give IS Mediums and Heavies an ability to shoot two consecutive 45-50 damage laser alphas with 450m min range
Give IS Assaults the thing above AND 30 FLD
Give IS Clan XL engines

That would be a good start

The idea is to aim for different yet equal, not having both sides being the same.

[Aresye]

kapusta11, on 07 November 2014 - 11:37 PM, said:

Well, if the goal is to balance IS vs Clans then:
Give IS Mediums and Heavies an ability to shoot two consecutive 45-50 damage laser alphas with 450m min range
Give IS Assaults the thing above AND 30 FLD
Give IS Clan XL engines

That would be a good start

Sure, just make sure to:
- Remove any weapon quirks from this recent patch.
- Disable the ability to change engines, endo, or FF upgrades.
- Force max jump jets on any part of the chassis that has them.
- Lengthen the duration of lasers so more damage is lost to HSR.
- Add a heat penalty for losing a side torso.

[The Boz]

I'd happily lose all quirks and ES and FF and whatever in order to double the DPS and alpha of my D-DC.

Edited by The Boz, 08 November 2014 - 02:53 AM.

[Nik Reaper]

Just give IS IS light engines, all problems solved, exept for the then op IS mechs .

[Ultimax]

Kanatta Jing, on 07 November 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

Do not forget the removal of the Victors negative quirks.

I haven't forgotten, but I don't think the Victor is as highly rated as to where the Devs pegged it in the current meta.


Aside from the direct chassis nerfs, all of the variables that aligned to make the Victor great have basically been nerfed.

It's still a good mech, but I think the devs over-rated it at T1 for all of the variants.

[Sjorpha]

Regarding the ELO difference:

ELO is a function of performance in absolute terms.
Performance in absolute terms is boosted by running more powerful/optimized/meta mechs.
At least 3 of the clan mechs are extremely powerful in the current meta.
The more time you spend in these 3 mechs the more inflated your ELO becomes.
Many pilots are dedicated clan pilots and spend most of their drops in one of those mechs.

It is therefore not surprising that the average ELO is higher on the clan side, and it should be taken with a large grain of salt when considered as a balancing factor.

I'm not dismissing it completely of course, the average experience and skill is higher amongst the paying players and the average of paying players is higher for clan pilots, naturally since the clans are not even all released free yet. So I'm sure some that ELO difference is actual skill, but some of it is inflated by power creep.

[RG Notch]

Aresye, on 08 November 2014 - 01:31 AM, said:

Sure, just make sure to:
- Remove any weapon quirks from this recent patch.
- Disable the ability to change engines, endo, or FF upgrades.
- Force max jump jets on any part of the chassis that has them.
- Lengthen the duration of lasers so more damage is lost to HSR.
- Add a heat penalty for losing a side torso.

Cool and remove min range on LRMs, make ER PPC do 5 pts of dmg to neighboring parts, reduce the weights of weapons, make FF and endo only take 7 slots. I'll take a heat penalty for torso loss instead of death anytime. I'm sure I'm forgetting somethings but I know the poor put upon clans that only win 64% of the time sure have all the bad things. I mean they are buffing the clans to compete with the IS...oh wait. Clan tears best tears.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 08 November 2014 - 08:48 AM, said:

I haven't forgotten, but I don't think the Victor is as highly rated as to where the Devs pegged it in the current meta.


Aside from the direct chassis nerfs, all of the variables that aligned to make the Victor great have basically been nerfed.

It's still a good mech, but I think the devs over-rated it at T1 for all of the variants.

The 9K variant in particular probably should have been rated as no higher than T2 because it can't do dual ballistics or AC/20.

[UrsusMorologus]

Dragon Slayer is about 450 average damage for me but almost never over 700, like its glued to 300-600 range

However it is my only mech that can beat a Dire in a straight fight, due to the mobility.

Question is, where is T1 really? If we were honest, T1 would be DW and TBR only, every other mech would be demoted a notch from current rank.

Edited by UrsusMorologus, 08 November 2014 - 09:53 AM.

[kapusta11]

SuckyJack, on 08 November 2014 - 12:26 AM, said:

The idea is to aim for different yet equal, not having both sides being the same.

Ok then:

• Remove Ghost Heat penalty from PPCs
  
• Increase PPC projectile speed to 2000mps
  
• Remove Gauss charge
  
• Add crit split for AC20

There you go, IS Mediums and Heavies have 25-35 FLD alphas vs 48-57 laser vomit and Assaults have 50 FLD alphas vs 30 FLD + 54 laser alphas.

Edited by kapusta11, 08 November 2014 - 10:08 AM.

[LordBraxton]

I'm ok with Clans having a higher win percentage. Obviously the ELO gap is caused by the fact that the clan community is made up largely of players who dropped massive $$$ on clan packs, which means they are also likely dropping massive amounts of time on the game. When I hear clan players bitching about quirks though... gets me all angry. I love how the elitism of Clan warriors in the fiction has always bled into the community, whether it be BT, earlier MW games, or MWO. I read most clan posts with a nasally accent. No offense, ya vatborn scum. :>

[Hoax415]

Here are some choice quotes where people pretend they have any idea what the average team elo delta number Russ gives should indicate in terms of expected winrate:

IceSerpent, on 06 November 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

55-45 range with this kind of Elo advantage wouldn't be good at all.

Aresye, on 06 November 2014 - 03:51 PM, said:

Convenient how many folks seem to have missed the, "Clans had a 100-120 Elo advantage," part. In which case, a perfect 50/50 would actually mean Clans are worse than IS given the Elo advantage.

For all you know you massive partisan (seriously this guy has like 15 posts in this thread defending his precious clan honor) a 100-120 Elo advantage in mixed tech solo queue games gives the higher elo teams a 57% expected winrate, could be 54%, could be 66% on the dot. You spend all thread talking as if you have a clue without providing any evidence that you have half of one.

bar10jim, on 06 November 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

You didn't read the post correctly. He also said "most matches I observed were around 100-120 ELO advantage to the Clan team."

With an ELO advantage in that range, having a 64% win percentage is actually a good number.

Pack it up guys. bar10jim says 64% is a good number. He must feel it in his gut or something.

This guy is at least trying and admits that he merely suspects he knows what he's talking about, credit to him for that.

Moenrg, on 06 November 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

What amazes me is that you simply cannot comprehend that for a given elo difference, the chance of winning changes. The "clan' team had a higher ELO in this test - therefore they had a higher chance to win.

Per Russ's own post the clans started with a higher ELO by 90 points, and this advantage was growing. Do you seriously believe that if statistics show that a team with a higher ELO by 90 points was suppose to only win 50% of the time and the clans won 64% of the time, that anyone with an IQ above double digits would think that's balanced? Do you believe you would be the only person to figure this out?

Maybe it's not obvious to you, but I suspect that 64% is pretty close to what the win chance is for a team with a 90 point ELO advantage, as I remember PGI stating 50 was a pretty big difference. If this simple math is beyond you, then please don't drop on my team...ever.

This was like page 7, finally someone who asks the right question.

makbeer, on 06 November 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

Russ - to normalize this result, please tell us what's the Norma win rate between two teams with a 120+ ELO difference...then there will be a more accurate measure.

shad0w4life, on 06 November 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

Do a test without Dire, Timber or StormCrow allowed on clan side and see it goes, I'm very very curious if it's just a few popular mechs making a difference.

This is a pointless test. Will those mechs be banned from CW? What do we care about? Balancing Clan vs IS for CW. All that matters is if when two teams are trying equally hard to win, bringing the best mechs and builds they can that the matches are even and come down to player skill not tech advantages. It'd make more sense to ban all mechs that aren't 35/55/75/100 from both sides for a test. And that doesn't make much sense either.

tl;dr anyone claiming that they know squat about what the winrate should have been based on elo is a liar and a partisan who you should probably put on forum ignore.

anyone trying to make this thread about "bad" clan mechs and how they are third class citizens (behind the power 3 and IS mechs) is reaching SUPER hard and is just derailing a thread that is about one simple thing: If CW started today would IS vs Clan be balanced?

Edited by Hoax415, 08 November 2014 - 10:19 AM.