82 replies to this topic

[Yanlowen Cage]

I know this has been talked about already.
But Isn't BAP's new range a little over the top? Being cancelled on your ecm at double the range of your ecm is kinda too much.
It is manageable in an IS light, but with the clanner lights you are just too slow for ecm to make a difference. Unless you are playing and range build. If you are playing a range build, that makes you vulnerable to being singled out. Because you have to move yourself away from other mechs to range successfully.
Now not asking to totally nerfed bap. Just bring it down to say 180 meters. Same as ecm. I may not see the damage to game mechanics that this would do, but I have seen the damage that the long range bap has done.
example: I rarely run my kitfox as it is too open to ecm canceling. Making it extremely vulnerable to ranged attacks and it and never was designed as a brawler. IS lights eat kitfoxes for breakfast in close combat most of the time.
Also, to play an IS light successfully the most common sense approach would be to build a range mech. Kinda killing the whole light escort role and taking the turn and burn fighting and throwing it out the window.
I AM still successful in my ecm lights. But I see their role being severely impacted by the new bap.

[Phex]

I am absolutely in your opinion!
I've noticed the same the last few days.
BAP at 200-250 would be absolutely in order.
This would make it possible again to protect the team effectivly.

Greeting Phex

[Curccu]

No. It's good now IMO.
It's giving you long range targeting/locking and target info shielding, it's not supposed to prevent locking/targeting at short ranges for you and your team.

[El Bandito]

I like the current range. 360 meters equal to the max range of CSSRMs so at least one of the worst weapons in the game can shine little bit brighter. ECM is still very powerful for its weight and still is a must have for a team, anyway.

Now it is slightly weaker than the omnipotent Magic Jesus Box it used to be.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 November 2014 - 04:20 AM.

[Clownwarlord]

BAP and/or CLAP (lol clan active probe) share the same range as clan streaks which is 360m for IS streaks are 270m this was ment as a combo to use to help with skirmishing allowing more range where previously you had to be 180m to hit an enemy with ECM or near ECM. So I see no real issue with it personally. I would suggest though maybe playing the clan lights and Ice Feret (a medium) like a skirmish mech more so then a brawler now that even your CLAP has the adjusted range.

The game still follows who ever has the most ECM wins this helps negate that.

Edited by clownwarlord, 10 November 2014 - 04:17 AM.

[Willard Phule]

It really depends on which queue you're talking about.

In the group queue, where you have the ability to make sure your lance has everything covered, I can see how the range might be excessive.

But in the solo queue, where 50-80% of your team is inexperienced and relies solely on LRMs, active probes are the only thing you've got that'll bring down the ECM. We don't see a lot of TAG or NARC in the solo queue since everyone is out for the kills and cbills.

[Chemie]

PGI wanted more LRMs so they fixed the lock bug AND added BAP/CLAP ranges to nerf ECM>...= more LRMs

[Kjudoon]

One thing I can see but haven't had the opportunity to run yet is that it ends assault spiders and cicadas. This also forces lights back into more traditional roles of scouts and escorts... not pt boats trying to sink the Japanese navy and succeeding fairly consistently on taking out battleships.

[El Bandito]

Chemie, on 10 November 2014 - 04:36 AM, said:

PGI wanted more LRMs so they fixed the lock bug AND added BAP/CLAP ranges to nerf ECM>...= more LRMs

Eat your own words.

https://twitter.com/...893083481210880

PGI actually wanted less LRMs, hence the 10% damage nerf on LRMs, but being PGI, they had managed to inadvertently offset the nerfs with BAP changes and LRM quirks.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 November 2014 - 04:43 AM.

[Yanlowen Cage]

Kjudoon, on 10 November 2014 - 04:39 AM, said:

One thing I can see but haven't had the opportunity to run yet is that it ends assault spiders and cicadas. This also forces lights back into more traditional roles of scouts and escorts... not pt boats trying to sink the Japanese navy and succeeding fairly consistently on taking out battleships.

ok most assaults are not built to defend themselves at short range. thus making the lights seem to be OP comparatively. put some short range weapons on your Assault and see what those light mechs are like when you can actually shoot back. So less to do with op lights and more to do with your design consideration.

[Foxfire]

I just wish they would come up and actually address what makes ECM an elephant in the room. These asinine changes wouldn't be needed if they made ECM function more in line with source instead of a combination of multiple systems.

They really need to add a better information warfare system(with things like passive radars, time based target recognition/painting/magic dorito in addition to the time based target information gathering). If done right, you can balance ECM for all time, give BAP a legitimate use, and make scouting a real role in this game.

[Kjudoon]

Yanlowen Cage, on 10 November 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

ok most assaults are not built to defend themselves at short range.

[Mordin Ashe]

Pardon my language but ECM has been the worst atrocity that hurt the fun I had in game. Too often ECM simply puts me into situation where I can't do anything, and all previous "counters" were either so hard to make work or horrendously expensive to employ compared to small tonnage of ECM. Not a big problem if you run meta Mechs but for anything else ECM kicks you hard and anything that kills this abomination is welcomed.

[Livewyr]

OP

You might have a case if ECM only made you in-targetable (stealth) at a few hundred meters...but I think you forget that it makes you stealth at *ALL* ranges outside 200ish meters. (A few more if you have modules to extend your sensor range)

The BAP change is not exactly what I was going for in balancing ECM..but it certainly is better than before.

[Kjudoon]

You like all the functionality of the current ECM, fine. Make it the size and weight of an IS PPC.

Still worth taking?

[Livewyr]

Kjudoon, on 10 November 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:

You like all the functionality of the current ECM, fine. Make it the size and weight of an IS PPC.

Still worth taking?

Don't forget the base heat of a PPC while active.

[Ultimax]

The new RADIUS on active probe is too large, because any mech can mount one.

It's one thing to be a counter, and quite another for you to be able to deny a huge section of the map.



Unfortunately a lot of players don't seem to understand how a huge radius, on an easy to slot item that can be stacked x12 is problematic.

That, or they just love their LRMs.

[UrsusMorologus]

Its no more broken than perfect-immunity ECM

[Yanlowen Cage]

Point that some of you seem to be missing is that that problem of "ECM" was a nail sticking up. But instead of using a hammer to fix it, PGI used a howitzer.

Curccu, on 10 November 2014 - 04:06 AM, said:

No. It's good now IMO.
It's giving you long range targeting/locking and target info shielding, it's not supposed to prevent locking/targeting at short ranges for you and your team.

360 is not IS short range. that is comparable to the IS large laser and longer range than quite a few IS weapons.
The fix (if there is one) isn't pretty much nullifying ecm. But creating a balance with it in game with a successful counter that is not OP. I do not see how matching the range of ECM to BAP (180 meters) is in any way making ECM OP again. all it does is make the BAP equipped mech have to get as close to the ECM make as the ECM mech is required to get to him. For example. if I want to shut down a missile boat in an ecm mech, I have to get with in 180 of him to disrupt his targeting locks. on the other hand, in order for him to break my ecm all he has to do is equip BAP and be with in 360 meters. that leaves a 180 meter hell zone for him to rain lurms on me. Now as I stated early or in a different post. this push light ecm mechs to go into a sniping/scouting role or as a skirmisher. Both of which are not optimal for a light mech. sniping/scouting lights are highly vulnerable to being swarmed and murdered by lights and fast mediums, and with a sniper build they are pretty much toasty. as a skirmisher they do not carry enuff armor or weaponry to effectively make much of a difference. As I have said I still play lights and do well in them, but the extended range of BAP does destroy a large portion of why a light mech would even carry ecm.

[nehebkau]

All the arguments tersely summarized :

Occasional LRM users: BAP is fine now, ECM is OK now
LRM boaters: BAP range is too low ECM is still OP
DD Users: BAP is a little too powerful ECM is OK.
ECM Users: My ECM is only useful if I am a long range sniper now.

Honestly, BAP should be just outside of LRM range, around 230 M, giving enough time to get 1 damaging volley off on a medium speed closing enemy.

Edited by nehebkau, 10 November 2014 - 07:44 AM.