181 replies to this topic

[Coolant]

according to Russ, TTK is only 15 seconds less...i personally don't even notice any change...

[Thunder Child]

Whelp, from experience in my Elo bracket, most mechs die within 15 secs when in a 2 to 1 situation. Sure, the match may take 5 mins, but most of that is people wandering around in circles trying to find each other. TTK is just too low for a Mechwarrior game. This isn't Call of Doody.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bhael Fire, on 14 November 2014 - 03:28 PM, said:

Seriously? Increasing TTK will only make deathball tactics even MORE prolific as teams will rely more on focused fire to take down enemies.

Except that clearly wasn't the case back in the closed beta days when TTK was the highest it has ever been.

[Bhael Fire]

WM Quicksilver, on 14 November 2014 - 09:03 PM, said:

Except that clearly wasn't the case back in the closed beta days when TTK was the highest it has ever been.

Except that clearly isn't the case now that full 8-man groups vs solo PUGS are not possible in 8 v 8 games.

...Like they were back in the good old days of closed beta...

[Bhael Fire]

Comparing then and now is pointless. So much has changed as far as weapons/mech/game balance is concerned.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 14 November 2014 - 09:52 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bhael Fire, on 14 November 2014 - 09:41 PM, said:

Comparing then and now is pointless. So much has changed as far as weapons/mech/game balance is concerned that doing so just makes you look like Kim's big butt. Which is ok...but kinda pointless.

Except all those balance factors you stated (almost all gameplay mechanics in other words), are the reason TTK has decreased, ergo directly related, so no it isn't pointless.

As for 8 man vs PUGs, what exactly are you talking about? I'm talking about competitive play where PUGs weren't involved (good ol sync drops).

[Bhael Fire]

WM Quicksilver, on 14 November 2014 - 09:51 PM, said:

Except all those balance factors you stated (almost all gameplay mechanics in other words), are the reason TTK has decreased, ergo directly related, so no it isn't pointless.

Show your work.

Otherwise you are placing conjecture.

I'll show you mine...if you show me your's....

[Mercules]

Murderball exists in PuGs because it is the most effective way to communicate. Birds use the same non-verbal communication to move and do so in safety. Atlas, Direwolf, 2 Timberwolves, ECM Raven, and a Shadowhawk go to the left you tend to follow because 1 mech versus 4+ is dead almost instantly.

Groups will actually break up the murderball some, spreading out more into firing lines and such because they have a chance at communication and it lets them have clearer lines of fire. They still tend to stick close but I've seen some flanking maneuvers work fairly well when you can actually coordinate pushes with the rest of your team.


TTK being higher will not encourage more hiding, it will encourage maneuver tactics where damaged mechs drop back allowing undamaged ones to move up and try and finish off the enemies damaged mechs.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bhael Fire, on 14 November 2014 - 09:59 PM, said:

Show your work.

Otherwise you are placing conjecture.

I'll show you mine...if you show me your's....

You do realize your first statement that I commented on was conjecture right?

DHS/ES/FF are the main game changers that had a drastic impact on the firepower a mech could mount. Former troll builds became meta designs (Splatapult and AC20apult) thanks to the drastic improvement of firepower. Ghost heat limited them to some degree, but still if we were to compare meta builds from Closed Beta to before the Clans were released, guess what you would find?

[Bhael Fire]

WM Quicksilver, on 14 November 2014 - 10:18 PM, said:

You do realize your first statement that I commented on was conjecture right?

DHS/ES/FF are the main game changers that had a drastic impact on the firepower a mech could mount. Former troll builds became meta designs (Splatapult and AC20apult) thanks to the drastic improvement of firepower. Ghost heat limited them to some degree, but still if we were to compare meta builds from Closed Beta to before the Clans were released, guess what you would find?

No probs dude...prove my conjecture wrong.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bhael Fire, on 14 November 2014 - 10:28 PM, said:

No probs dude...prove my conjecture wrong.

So, I have to prove my conjecture right AND prove your conjecture wrong, sorry that's not the way it works. Your argument doesn't get to stand over someone else because you will it so...

Either prove my conjecture wrong, or state the foundation of your conjecture then we will start an actual discussion.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 14 November 2014 - 10:36 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

WM Quicksilver, on 14 November 2014 - 10:35 PM, said:

Either prove my conjecture wrong, or state the foundation of your conjecture then we will start an actual discussion.

Please stop being silly.

[elismallz]

Fut, on 13 November 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

Don't take this the wrong way, but I believe you're missing the point of flanking the enemy. The purpose isn't to pop out on their side and insta-gib the first poor soul you happen upon - it's to distract, confuse and pressure the enemy. As soon as they notice that they're taking fire from a different front, they are forced to either react to you and expose themselves to your main force, or to ignore you and allow you to continue firing upon them.

TTK has to be longer than other shooters, we're not just foot soldiers but pilots of massive war machines. Battletech/Mechwarrior has always been a battle of attrition - it's part of what makes the game so much fun.

This.

[Khobai]

Quote

This game having a relatively slow TTK is the reason why "the blob" dominates tactics, and why things like flanking maneuvers are basically pointless against competent opponents.

And yet the game has gotten worse since TTK has decreased. Its significantly less fun to pilot lights and mediums than it used to be.

[crustydog]

My two cent observation:

Back in the early days the games were intense... City Tech, Battletech, weapons were not over powered, and movement or a lucky dice roll could radically change the outcome of the game. The ability to get critical hits at any time, though somewhat infrequent, were a vital aspect of the game. An Atlas was deadly, but if you hit the ammo, or killed the pilot, the lightest mech with a 2 pack could always get lucky. When it did happen everyone freaked out !


Then came the Clans, and speed, range and firepower were all dramatically increased. What had not greatly increased was maximum overall armour. The net effect? ...the quality of the game radically devolved, in spite of much cooler mechs, most games simply ended very quickly, and strategy and tactics lost much of their meaning. The one shot kill, no longer a rare and often lucky event, now every mech battle was a rapid destruction of everything. Therefore, nothing special, nothing exciting, nothing spectacular... kinda boring when you get down to it.


It kind of reminds me of the use of the machine gun in World War One... everybody entrenching, because poking your head up ensures a quick death.... not a lot of movement, just stagnation, a battle of attrition.


To me, the obvious answer was that a mech should be able to carry more armour, with more armour per ton, to offset the greater weapon power, yet retaining a critical system that would still allow for those rare, but devastating events, to occur. Overall, the mechs would take longer to kill, but that also restores the flow of movement in the game. One shot kill should happen, just not every time you point your weapons. Mechs would also need more ammunition per ton, to offset the length of the battle.

Match times would have to increase, which may or may not be doable given available server resources.


As a side note about CASE - the idea is an armoured box around the ammo - ( which you pay for in tonnage,) to direct the explosion outward behind the mech, (could be an amazing graphic by the way. ) There is no need to radically damage either the armour or internal structure of the mech in a case explosion, because the box itself is armoured internally - really, there is no need to lose the arm, or even the mechanics and electronics for the arm - never mind the xl engine, unless some explosive damage roles criticals and does it that way - the ammo itself is now unavailable. I suppose there couild be a chance for case failure - especially if the armour is stripped before the ammo is hit.

This assumes an environment where criticals can happen through armour - as a rare event.

[BOWMANGR]

OP effectively suggests to make the game totally mindless where a single wrong maneuver means instant death, team tactics don't really matter because anyone can kill anyone, heat scale is useless, cover serves as a staging ground just before you commit and do some kills or die trying, high alpha builds become even stronger, tactics are thrown out of the window and the Cod crowd will rejoice in yet another iteration of the same idiotic twitch shooter game play.

Tl;dr NOPE

[Lefty Lucy]

BOWMANGR, on 15 November 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

OP effectively suggests to make the game totally mindless where a single wrong maneuver means instant death, team tactics don't really matter because anyone can kill anyone, heat scale is useless, cover serves as a staging ground just before you commit and do some kills or die trying, high alpha builds become even stronger, tactics are thrown out of the window and the Cod crowd will rejoice in yet another iteration of the same idiotic twitch shooter game play.

Tl;dr NOPE

I'm not actually advocating a change to TTK at all, I'm just explaining how the common suggestion to increase TTK won't actually change the game for the better.

That being said, short TTK doesn't make a "mindless" game. In fact, quite the opposite, it makes tactics and planning all the more important because you can't make that single "wrong maneuver."

Having a slow TTK dumbs the game down.

[The Boz]

That's incorrect. Longer TTK enables information gathering, processing of said information, and acting upon it. Shorter TTK goes more towards reflexes, alphas, and disincentivizes tactical movement, particularly retreats.

[Karl Streiger]

The Boz, on 21 November 2014 - 01:49 AM, said:

That's incorrect. Longer TTK enables information gathering, processing of said information, and acting upon it. Shorter TTK goes more towards reflexes, alphas, and disincentivizes tactical movement, particularly retreats.

Well while i don't like the currently gameplay a lot (ok i can remember when it was even worse) - i could not think about a good benefit of a longer TTK.

Hey look at the maps - great after the first clash what will happen. First there will hardly happen anything but the time between first contact and the movment and the edges of cover -
After that some units may try some different ways - but at last look at the maps - there is no room to - clash into the enemy - retreat order your lines and attack again. You are hardly able to create a real gap between the enemy forces - so the only difference is indeed the pure time of battle.

[BOWMANGR]

Lefty Lucy, on 19 November 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

I'm not actually advocating a change to TTK at all, I'm just explaining how the common suggestion to increase TTK won't actually change the game for the better.

That being said, short TTK doesn't make a "mindless" game. In fact, quite the opposite, it makes tactics and planning all the more important because you can't make that single "wrong maneuver."

Having a slow TTK dumbs the game down.

Couldn't disagree more. A slow TTK allows tactics, BETTER heat management, better builds based on DPS and ROF and relies a lot less on luck. A high TTK allows the COD twitch crowd to feel skilled. Twitch skills are a skill nontheless but they are far FAR away from strategy & tactics and are nearer the definition of mindless than the slow pondering strategic gameplay of a slow TTK match.

If anything, a gameplay where waiting for the right moment to press the left click and alpha strike kill someone is the very definition of dumbing down. Mechs who can tank require much more piloting skill to preserve their armor for the whole duration, require much more mechlab skills to make a build that can stand and fight for prolonged times and they also require heat & ammo management.
Fast TTK requires high pinpoint damage and a lucky or skillful twitch-y click of the left mouse button. If this is not dumbing down I really don't know what it is.

Please don't ask for fast TTK, this game is not Call of Duty and it shouldn't strive to be.

Edited by BOWMANGR, 21 November 2014 - 08:50 AM.