181 replies to this topic

[Weeny Machine]

AlphaToaster, on 13 November 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

When TTK is too slow, people are afraid to push because they don't feel powerful. They can't push alone or flank alone because they can't kill anyone on their own before getting crippled themselves. When you end up with teammates that will not push then it's much easier for the team to get rolled.

When TTK is too fast, people are afraid to push because they risk getting 1-shotted. But you will see more people actively trying to sway the game because the reward is worth the risk. It is worth it to try to flank in your AC20 medium because if you get the drop on an assault you have a chance to kill him. It's not that you're going to kill him every time, but you at least have that chance to. Afterall, you're exposed on the flank, risking your mech for that chance to make something happen.

TL:DR

We're looking for the happy medium. Too much of either is bad, by definition of being too much. Personally I think TTK should err towards faster rather than slower because it opens up more chances for the individual pilots to sway the battle.

Not at all. The TTK is on an all time low currently. Now look how most PuG machtes are played: mostly people sit on top of each other and hardly anyone is moving. The reason is simple enough: if you peek out at the wrong spot or moment half of your mechs is missing before you can react.

Take this as an example: Tourmaline Desert
I moved up to the slope wanting to peek with my BJ and maybe get a shot off. What I didn't know was that 2 mechs under ecm cover stood 300 m away. When I peeked I got 2 full alphas, both on the ST. I instantly exploded thanks to an XL. A pristine mech...

Did I do a mistake which warrants instant death? I think not.

And here we have 2 of the worst mechanics in MWO with negative synergy: hughe alphas + ECM.



Sidenote: It feels more and more like a Call of Duty shooter and not like BT.

[LordNothing]

im always against ttk extensions. i think it is fine for the most part.

[Kiiyor]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 July 2015 - 01:43 AM, said:

For the record an Orion has 44 points of Side Torso Front armor (22 on TT). So a Single AC20 shot leaves it with 2 points of armor(10 seconds). To replicate that here requires a 40 point alpha or 2 taps with an AC20 (8 seconds). So a side torso almost stripped in 1 turn of combat either way. Looks like TTK is still about right.

Or, a 60 or 70+ point alpha from a DireWolf. Most mechs are a vaguely mech shaped canoe after that.

[Ashvins]

TTK is too low, why?

The game was balanced for 8 vs 8 not 12 vs 12. Add in the extra 4 mechs and TTK can be 1 sec or less. Just poke your head out at the wrong time even in an Assault and your gone. As others have stated it's the lack of objectives in this game that brings about the death ball and brings the TTK down. I rarely see a match last 8+ min any more, unless its because of a single ecm light mech hiding as the last man standing wasting the time of other players.

Back in the 8 vs 8 days a match could and often did end in a 6-7 or similar score. Granted that was pre-clan also but with the 8 vs 8 you rarely got mobed by more than 4 mech's and could usually fall back without dying or take at least one out before you died. That don't happen anymore, TTK has droped to almost CoD levels wich is sad considering your in a 20+ tonne mech.

[LordBraxton]

Closed Beta proves this thread wrong. All power creep has brought since is more and more sniping\peeking\poking and less and less brawling. If you enjoy peek\poke go play a tank game and sit hull down all day. I want brawls damnit.

[Weeny Machine]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 July 2015 - 01:43 AM, said:

For the record an Orion has 44 points of Side Torso Front armor (22 on TT). So a Single AC20 shot leaves it with 2 points of armor(10 seconds). To replicate that here requires a 40 point alpha or 2 taps with an AC20 (8 seconds). So a side torso almost stripped in 1 turn of combat either way. Looks like TTK is still about right.

You conveniently forget that...

1. in TT you cannot just aim for the damaged part. If you are unlucky your next 4 AC/20 shots hit all different sections of the mech

2. You choose the most brutal pinpoint weapon in the TT - do the example again with 4 MLasers and compare that in the TT and MWO (with instant convergence) and bear no.1 in mind.

3. A turn in BT is 10 seconds. How many alphas can you get off in MWO during that time?


I am sorry but when I saw your example and your reasoning a song was playing in the back of my mind and I smiled - I am not sure if you Amercians know it,though

Edited by Bush Hopper, 21 July 2015 - 05:21 AM.

[Zypher]

A little off topic, but I think they should have changed the way weapons worked. In TT one turn was 10 seconds right, they should have divided the weapon damage and heat by 3 but increased firing rates and ammo by 3 or by some other factor.

The point being is TTK would be altered because weapon damage would be spread more and you would take less damage in split second engagements.

You wouldn't have even needed to change convergence with this method, it would rely more on player skill for consistent aiming. The fire fights would be more intense but more forgiving, it might even be conducive to brawling as the weapons would be based more around sustained fire rather than burst.

You may have not even needed to increase armor to it's current rates as faster mechs would have more survivability.

Not that this will ever happen now, just my 2 cents.

[Lugh]

Lefty Lucy, on 13 November 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

This game having a relatively slow TTK is the reason why "the blob" dominates tactics, and why things like flanking maneuvers are basically pointless against competent opponents.

In order to effectively reduce the enemy team's ability to fight, you need to kill their mechs. Most importantly, you need to kill their mechs as fast as possible in order to minimize damage to your own team as well. For all but the most powerful mechs, 1 v 1 TTK is slow in this game. Slow enough that if one mech is losing a solo fight it can quite easily return to its team before dying. This is why focus fire is of utmost importance.

Similarly, if you attack a mech from an angle it is not currently observing, it almost always gets a chance to return fire. Combine this with relatively long cooldowns compared to other shooters, and the only way to effectively damage an enemy mech without simply trading damage with them is to hug cover obsessively. It also means that trying to "flank" a prepared defensive position is pointless because getting the first shot in combat is only a minor advantage, rather than a decisive one.

Don't get me wrong, I think this game is fun with relatively slow TTK, but suggesting even *slower* TTK as a way to improve gameplay is incredibly misguided.

Could not be more wrong. low TTK is why you get the stagnant death ball of doom.

When we had 8v8 in CB and after, you could have 2 or 3 guys Flank and destroy the enemy team easily. Now with 12 v 12, you need to be sure to have at least 4 accurate shooters for the flank maneuver AND a combined push from the other 8 at that same time to be successful.

The number of bodies in the ball means that even after taking out 4 you've got 8 guys left staring at you and that means death(without pressure from the main line)

It can still be done even with the accelerated TTK of today, however, it is a far far riskier move than it ever was 'back in my day'.

Bush Hopper, on 21 July 2015 - 05:08 AM, said:

You conveniently forget that...

1. in TT you cannot just aim for the damaged part. If you are unlucky your next 4 AC/20 shots hit all different sections of the mech

2. You choose the most brutal pinpoint weapon in the TT - do the example again with 4 MLasers and compare that in the TT and MWO (with instant convergence) and bear no.1 in mind.

3. A turn in BT is 10 seconds. How many alphas can you get off in MWO during that time?


I am sorry but when I saw your example and your reasoning a song was playing in the back of my mind and I smiled - I am not sure if you Amercians know it,though

3-4 alphas in the same TT turn. Weapon damage is 4x, armor was only doubled ONCE long ago.

[FrontGuard]

I don't understand the OP...
I think the Death Ball is great! I love it... its called Team work and it is a good thing and its lots of Fun.
TTK should be Increased if anything to encourage more Team Work until the FPS jarheads understand this is more than an FPS.

First Person Shooter people... Go Away... You are hurting this game.

Edited by FrontGuard, 21 July 2015 - 08:23 AM.

[Greenjulius]

The OP was created not long after the Quirkening dropped. I feel like it was created without fully comprehending the massive changes that have happened in the game since.

TTK wasn't low until after clans dropped. It got worse once Quirks became a thing. Now we have progressively more powerful mechs, quirked Firestarters with 20% heat reduction, King Crabs with 4xUAC5 and Clan UACs that have become very deadly. Hitreg is finally getting better, so TTK is absolutely at the lowest we have ever seen.

Is it better for gameplay? I would say not. Gameplay has suffered this year, chiefly because everything dies so fast. Just try group queue against a decent drop. Usually the match is over in about 5 minutes.

[Almond Brown]

DV McKenna, on 21 July 2015 - 03:58 AM, said:

Maps too small
Maps too cluttered

=limited viable tactics

Bigger maps
Less clutter

=increased viable tactics

And forget about any chance to ever Brawl again. Booooooo!

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

operatorZ, on 13 November 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

I disagree, You have it backwards in my opinion.

Increasing TTK actually increases the ability of mechs to play in a non blob focus fire group way...not the other way around. Increased TTK increases risk taking tactics, of which blob focus fire is not, which inherently makes the game less boring.

This. People, myself included, are very tired of " deathball warrior online " where individual skill is almost meaningless, matches are short and boring, and brawling is almost dead. This game needs a huge increase to TTK, otherwise...

Welcome to call of duty, mechwarrior edition.

[Joseph Mallan]

Almond Brown, on 21 July 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

And forget about any chance to ever Brawl again. Booooooo!

To be fair there isn't a map in the game I cannot find a place to Brawl... At least not in PUG.

[Almond Brown]

LordBraxton, on 21 July 2015 - 04:04 AM, said:

Fast TTK has actually made focus fire and formation far less important, as a single mech can just tear another down in seconds. My EXE isn't that heavily armed, but I double tapped a fresh enforcer and killed in in... what is the exact cooldown time for an ERSL with lvl 5 cooldown? Because that was how long he lived. I fired the first shot instantly, and he was dead before the beam duration of the second salvo. Basically 2 second engagement. 'Im having fun..."

From the Front or Rear? That would likely make quite a difference...

[Lily from animove]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 July 2015 - 01:43 AM, said:

For the record an Orion has 44 points of Side Torso Front armor (22 on TT). So a Single AC20 shot leaves it with 2 points of armor(10 seconds). To replicate that here requires a 40 point alpha or 2 taps with an AC20 (8 seconds). So a side torso almost stripped in 1 turn of combat either way. Looks like TTK is still about right.

not entirely, because the chance that one mech in TT reliably hits the same section si quite low, while we palyers here (depening on skill) hit the same location extremely often compared to TT. further a smal laser shot once in a single TT turn, while currently they cna shoot roughly 2.5 times, making them way more dps than in TT.

So 3 thinsg add in here in MWO:

far superior aim compared to TT
Faster wepaon firing rates than TT
Higher heat treshold to fire more wepaons within the same timeframe than TT.

this makes the ttk's especially in assault one vs ones WAY below TT.

otherwise since you seem to be very TT familar, let a DWF fight vs a pimped Atlas and see how long the time in turns turns out. Now compare this with MWO.

[Joseph Mallan]

Alwrath, on 21 July 2015 - 08:44 AM, said:

This. People, myself included, are very tired of " deathball warrior online " where individual skill is almost meaningless, matches are short and boring, and brawling is almost dead. This game needs a huge increase to TTK, otherwise...

Welcome to call of duty, mechwarrior edition.

So what if the team is using actual formations over the "deathball" and still apply overlapping fields of fire to wipe you from the map. What would you complain about then? That Tactics have no place in a fighting game???

Lily from animove, on 21 July 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

not entirely, because the chance that one mech in TT reliably hits the same section si quite low, while we palyers here (depening on skill) hit the same location extremely often compared to TT. further a smal laser shot once in a single TT turn, while currently they cna shoot roughly 2.5 times, making them way more dps than in TT.

So 3 thinsg add in here in MWO:

far superior aim compared to TT
Faster wepaon firing rates than TT
Higher heat treshold to fire more wepaons within the same timeframe than TT.

this makes the ttk's especially in assault one vs ones WAY below TT.

otherwise since you seem to be very TT familar, let a DWF fight vs a pimped Atlas and see how long the time in turns turns out. Now compare this with MWO.

One AC20 is all the reliability needed, and 6,7 & 8 Happen more often that some people want to believe. I learned the truth about random dice rolls in an SPC class.

[Almond Brown]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 July 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:

To be fair there isn't a map in the game I cannot find a place to Brawl... At least not in PUG.

That is why I question the need to make them more "sparse". Bigger, sure, until they get simply to BIG then whole classes of Mechs get left behind and simply out of the fight...

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Almond Brown, on 21 July 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:

That is why I question the need to make them more "sparse". Bigger, sure, until they get simply to BIG then whole classes of Mechs get left behind and simply out of the fight...

Sparse is the wrong word, there should definitely be mountains, ridges, small outposts but not all in the same place on tiny maps.
There simply has to be more room to maneuver to get more tactics to be viable

[Mister Blastman]

And I disagree. Sorry OP. The TTK in this game has gotten to be way too fast.

[zagibu]

While the observations about TTK vs blobbing in the OP are valid, even lower TTK would just lead to even more camping and hill humping as well. The real way to counter blobbing is to add objectives to multiple parts of the map, so that you WILL lose when you simply blob up. Also, larger maps.