183 replies to this topic

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

SuckyJack, on 15 November 2014 - 05:04 AM, said:

I'm just going to drop this little note about collisions. Mass times Velocity Squared.

This means that a 25 ton mech slamming into something at 100 KPH will have the same force as a 100 ton mech slamming into something at 50 KPH. So expecting that you'll always be squeaky clean from lights because you've got 100 tons under your rear is just sitting in that absolutely wrong idea of "Lights Should Always Lose To Assaults."

Tonnage difference should without a doubt determine how they walk away from the collision in terms of damage taken, a light mech slamming into a heavy mech at high speed should have the light mech on the worse end of damage received. This should already be covered in the difference between armor and internal structure.

The strongest considerations for collisions should be speed, facing and bracing. A mech should be more resistant to collisions from the front as you should be able to brace yourself. A mech should be more vulnerable to collisions from behind as in the current iteration of the game you wouldn't be aware of them. A mech should be more vulnerable to collisions from the side as lateral movement of the legs is much more limited, the machine cannot brace itself as well. Facing should be determined by the facing of the legs and not the torso.

Personally I believe that doing collisions properly will involve removing the movement of our mechs from auto-pilot and cruise control, instead using a system that takes the concept of the player being assisted by the Gyro yet the player maintaining balance instead of just walking around. For a good example of how this was done take a look at Steel Battalion.

Anyways, my 2 cents on the issue. Collisions, Charge Attacks and changes to what is expected of the player to even move go hand in hand in my books.

Yeah but that 25ton light will be a crumpled wreck after the collision. The assault will have the armour and mass to be able to survive mostly ok. Just look at the damage when a car head ons with a truck.

[Alistair Winter]

oldradagast, on 15 November 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

Half the posts on this thread seem to be nothing but assault mech pilots whining that their Dire Cheese can actually be threatened by something.

Conveniently ignoring the posts by light mech pilots like myself, who look forward to the challenge? There's been a few people saying that.

[Troutmonkey]

Alistair Winter, on 15 November 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

Conveniently ignoring the posts by light mech pilots like myself, who look forward to the challenge? There's been a few people saying that.

Good for you, but I don't like the idea of getting stun locked and insta killed. Running into a mech/building and stopping is enough to get you killed now as not moving = death. Stopping is punishment enough for making that mistake, being stun-locked is just over kill, especially for a weight class with less than 5% time on average.

[FupDup]

Alistair Winter, on 15 November 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

Conveniently ignoring the posts by light mech pilots like myself, who look forward to the challenge? There's been a few people saying that.

If only there was that "challenge" for the non-T5 heavies and assaults...

[QuantumButler]

If we get proper collisions and knockdowns back I will take back 30% of the bad things I have said about PGI.

[Alistair Winter]

FupDup, on 15 November 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

If only there was that "challenge" for the non-T5 heavies and assaults...

Hey, I hear that. I'm hoping that they'll find a way to do this with collisions and knockdown. A Commando should be able to get up to its feet a lot faster than the Atlas. I would like to see a system where light mechs get knocked down more often, but are able to get up faster. When you're able to knock down a big assault mech, it should be a catastrophic event for the assault mech. Like overheating, but worse. Now, overheating isn't considered a "stun lock" because it's your own fault if you overheat. So it would be nice if it was the same with knockdowns. E.g. one mech crashing into you isn't normally enough for a knockdown. Both mechs need to be moving at high speed to generate enough force. But just like knockdowns should punish bad light mech pilots, I'd like to see it punish bad assault mech pilots.

[Pale Jackal]

Alistair Winter, on 16 November 2014 - 07:08 AM, said:

Hey, I hear that. I'm hoping that they'll find a way to do this with collisions and knockdown. A Commando should be able to get up to its feet a lot faster than the Atlas. I would like to see a system where light mechs get knocked down more often, but are able to get up faster. When you're able to knock down a big assault mech, it should be a catastrophic event for the assault mech. Like overheating, but worse. Now, overheating isn't considered a "stun lock" because it's your own fault if you overheat. So it would be nice if it was the same with knockdowns. E.g. one mech crashing into you isn't normally enough for a knockdown. Both mechs need to be moving at high speed to generate enough force. But just like knockdowns should punish bad light mech pilots, I'd like to see it punish bad assault mech pilots.

Yes, excellent point, Assaults should be much harder to knock down since they can't maneuver out of the way easily, but lighter 'mechs should get up quicker. Maybe a small bonus if the 'mech has hand actuators. But getting knocked over shouldn't be a death sentence for a light.

[oldradagast]

Troutmonkey, on 15 November 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

Good for you, but I don't like the idea of getting stun locked and insta killed. Running into a mech/building and stopping is enough to get you killed now as not moving = death. Stopping is punishment enough for making that mistake, being stun-locked is just over kill, especially for a weight class with less than 5% time on average.

Exactly.

I get such a laugh out of people raging about how this change will "finally add some skill to playing light mechs."

Are these people playing the same game as the rest of us? It is a rarity for the light queue to hit 15%, and most matches are seas of Clan Heavies with some Mediums and Assaults tossed in. In what world do we really need ANOTHER reward for playing the heaviest mech possible?

I am also saddened by how the same crowd that is complaining about how time to kill is too short in the game wants a stun-lock mechanic added that will make time to kill even shorter once you're knocked down.

Finally, do you know what the best way is to avoid being knocked down by foes? Hiding and sniping... because the game doesn't have enough of that already?!

I really think that there are just a staggering number of pilots out there who either don't understand what they are saying or who are just angry that any mech in the game lighter than their 75+ ton "I paid real money for this so I should be able to kill poors on sight" monster poses any threat to them.

Edited by oldradagast, 16 November 2014 - 07:37 AM.

[FupDup]

Alistair Winter, on 16 November 2014 - 07:08 AM, said:

Hey, I hear that. I'm hoping that they'll find a way to do this with collisions and knockdown. A Commando should be able to get up to its feet a lot faster than the Atlas. I would like to see a system where light mechs get knocked down more often, but are able to get up faster. When you're able to knock down a big assault mech, it should be a catastrophic event for the assault mech. Like overheating, but worse. Now, overheating isn't considered a "stun lock" because it's your own fault if you overheat. So it would be nice if it was the same with knockdowns. E.g. one mech crashing into you isn't normally enough for a knockdown. Both mechs need to be moving at high speed to generate enough force. But just like knockdowns should punish bad light mech pilots, I'd like to see it punish bad assault mech pilots.

You really think that PGI is gonna let a "bottom-tier-avatar" knock over a "top-tier-avatar"? I wouldn't hold my breath on that...

The most you can hope for is JJ-capable mechs being able to do "jump kicks" against mechs of higher tonnage (like the original implementation allowed). But mechs without jets...will probably be screwed. That Commando is never, ever, going to knock over an Atlas, ever. It's not gonna happen, PGI ain't gonna let it happen, because "Endgame Content" and what not. And the complaints from assault pilots would make the original consumables/3PV/ECM/etc forumwars look like peaceful celebrations.

Edited by FupDup, 16 November 2014 - 08:10 AM.

[Pale Jackal]

Well, PGI might use drop ship mode to drop all pretense that light 'mechs need to be the equal of heavier 'mechs.

Hopefully they will not nerf light 'mechs any more.

[Alistair Winter]

FupDup, on 16 November 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

The most you can hope for is JJ-capable mechs being able to do "jump kicks" against mechs of higher tonnage (like the original implementation allowed). But mechs without jets...will probably be screwed. That Commando is never, ever, going to knock over an Atlas, ever. It's not gonna happen, PGI ain't gonna let it happen, because "Endgame Content" and what not. And the complaints from assault pilots would make the original consumables/3PV/ECM/etc forumwars look like peaceful celebrations.

As a Raven pilot, I'm not planning on knocking assault mechs over. And if I'm rammed by a frickin Atlas moving 50-60 kph when I'm doing 140-150 kph, that's my bad. I don't really plan on letting that happen either.

Now, I get that it's still bad news for light mech pilots more than assault mech pilots. But the same can be said for melee, and I'm still hoping melee makes it into the game. I'm sure it'll suck to park my wingless Raven next to an enemy Axman heavy mech, but I still want to see it.

[Alienized]

cant wait to punch into firestartes faces while they run past me.
hit detection is so bad on them that a collision could finally stop them.
now all i want is to drop my atlas into the path of lights.
like a wall.
and them crushing into it.

[FupDup]

Alistair Winter, on 16 November 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

As a Raven pilot, I'm not planning on knocking assault mechs over. And if I'm rammed by a frickin Atlas moving 50-60 kph when I'm doing 140-150 kph, that's my bad. I don't really plan on letting that happen either.

If everyone doesn't have equal access to pushing over everyone else, then prepare to see people using more of whichever mech type benefits the most from it (my own estimate being a JJ-capable TBR as the prime candidate, or an XL365 Grasshopper going even faster).

Alistair Winter, on 16 November 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

Now, I get that it's still bad news for light mech pilots more than assault mech pilots. But the same can be said for melee, and I'm still hoping melee makes it into the game. I'm sure it'll suck to park my wingless Raven next to an enemy Axman heavy mech, but I still want to see it.

Most of the mechs in this game are aesthetically designed to look bulky and inflexible. Seeing them try to punch each other and wield swords/stuff would probably look dumb. Some of them look like they can't even flex their arms far enough to do it in the first place.

[Alistair Winter]

FupDup, on 16 November 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

If everyone doesn't have equal access to pushing over everyone else, then prepare to see people using more of whichever mech type benefits the most from it (my own estimate being a JJ-capable TBR as the prime candidate, or an XL365 Grasshopper going even faster).

I'm quite prepared. The reason I picked the Raven as my primary mech for this game, was precisely because I wanted to be the underdog. It was kind of boring when the RVN-3L was the best mech in the game in 2012, but I solved that by playing the RVN-2X and RVN-4X with XL245 or even STD240 engines.

I'm sure the number of light mechs are gonna drop in the quick matches (though how much further can it really drop? We're already seeing 0% light mechs in the queue and matches without a single light mech on either side), but people will still be forced to play light mechs in CW if they want to play assault mechs.

I didn't become a light mech pilot because it was easy. I just wish my balls were big enough to play the Locust, but the amount of masochism required for that mech is just beyond what I can endure. It makes the Adder feel invincible.

[FupDup]

Alistair Winter, on 16 November 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

I'm quite prepared. The reason I picked the Raven as my primary mech for this game, was precisely because I wanted to be the underdog. It was kind of boring when the RVN-3L was the best mech in the game in 2012, but I solved that by playing the RVN-2X and RVN-4X with XL245 or even STD240 engines.

I didn't become a light mech pilot because it was easy. I just wish my balls were big enough to play the Locust, but the amount of masochism required for that mech is just beyond what I can endure. It makes the Adder feel invincible.

Just keep in mind that many people prefer to be the hunter instead of the prey. In the immortal words of Russ Bullock: You're kind of an island there bud.

Alistair Winter, on 16 November 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

I'm sure the number of light mechs are gonna drop in the quick matches (though how much further can it really drop? We're already seeing 0% light mechs in the queue and matches without a single light mech on either side), but people will still be forced to play light mechs in CW if they want to play assault mechs.

Maybe negative queue numbers?

[Alistair Winter]

FupDup, on 16 November 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

Just keep in mind that many people prefer to be the hunter instead of the prey. In the immortal words of Russ Bullock: You're kind of an island there bud.

I do alright.

[Alienized]

FupDup, on 16 November 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

Just keep in mind that many people prefer to be the hunter instead of the prey. In the immortal words of Russ Bullock: You're kind of an island there bud.



Maybe negative queue numbers?

light pilots are so dedicated that they dotn care about collisions. i cant wait to have collisions back on track. makes it alot harder to drive most mechs but at the same time assaults are no victims anymore on maps like river city skirmish with its bad starting points.

[oldradagast]

Aliisa White, on 16 November 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

light pilots are so dedicated that they dotn care about collisions. i cant wait to have collisions back on track. makes it alot harder to drive most mechs but at the same time assaults are no victims anymore on maps like river city skirmish with its bad starting points.

Yes... you, and all 3 or 4 remaining dedicated light pilots will no doubt enjoy yet another obstacle that punishes you. The rest of the players will ditch anything under 55 tons and focus on long-range sniping... because this game needs heavier mechs and less brawling, I guess...

[Troutmonkey]

Aliisa White, on 16 November 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:

cant wait to punch into firestartes faces while they run past me.
hit detection is so bad on them that a collision could finally stop them.
now all i want is to drop my atlas into the path of lights.
like a wall.
and them crushing into it.

How about asking for a hitreg fix instead of calling for unjustified nerfs to all lights?

[Dimento Graven]

Prezimonto, on 14 November 2014 - 11:00 PM, said:

It's actually not how WoT deals with things. Their tiering system somewhat keeps the most predatory veterans out of low level matches, but nothing actually stops someone from ranking up a tier 2 tank with full crew, equipment, consumables and stomping newbies, it's just not a profitable endeavor.

Interesting, and thanks for the clarificati0on.

The issue with the current MM is there's no guarantee it will keep noobs and the unskilled away from the veterans, and it feels that more often than not, it's vets vs. noobs.

We need something