262 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 17 November 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

******’ LRMs

2

This entry was posted in Balance on November 8, 2014 by GMan.

I feel that it is fitting that my first post in my brand-spankin-new website be about the thing I hate most in the game. Namely, Long Ranged Missiles. This weapon system has always presented the greatest balance issue, greater than brawling, sniping, poptarting, BESMing, laser vomiting, or any of the other imbalanced elements that have had to have been addressed throughout the course of MWO’s history. These recommendations, though, are not based on my vitriol for the weapon system. Hear me out. It’s gonna require multiple changes, but I think it can be a usable weapon, at least until PGI gets the free time to completely work the mechanic (which I think needs doing but is not the subject of this post).
Step 1: Make LRMs fire & forget. Huge buff, right? I know. Trust me, the rest of the steps will help balance it. But one of the hugest issues with using LRMs is that they have to be boated in order to be used effectively. Why is that? Because you have to hold your damn mouse over that box. Does that involve any skill at all? Nope! But it does prevent you from doing anything else with your time. That means you can’t shield, you can’t lead your other weapons properly (well, you can, but it’s a bit annoying), and you can’t look around for extra situational awareness. Among other things. Seriously, this will fix the main usability issue I see facing LRMs, and change it from a must-boat weapon to a legitimate supporting or secondary option.
Step 2: Adjusting Radar Deprivation and Target Decay. The first part of this is to make radar deprivation’s effect global and automatic on all mechs. So, once you and your team loses LoS, the missiles automatically stop tracking. There’s no additional time that it will spend tracking after your guys can’t see the enemy mech. Optionally, you can make it so that either the LRMs cannot reacquire, or they can. Either one would be fine, I think. Target Decay? That can make it so that your targeting will function the way it does now without Target Decay or Radar Deprivation being involved. So it’s not as ridiculously long as it is now with Target Decay, but it at least means that the enemy can’t break LoS momentarily and throw off your plans using stuff like the cables in the center of Terra Therma. And how will Radar Deprivation work now? Here’s my idea – make it so that for the first 1 or 2 seconds that you are within enemy LoS, you can’t be targeted. That would be awesome! Not only does it mean that you can trade against LRMs at short-medium range without having to worry about getting wrecked as hard, but you can coordinate flanks and sneak-attacks a lot better. Alternatively, just make it so LRM lock-on and target info gathering on you take longer. But I think that would be way lamer.
Step 3. The balance bits.

• Have LRMs launch at a certain velocity (100 m/s?) and accelerate to 200 m/s over their flight time, maybe peaking at around 500m.
  
• Reduce LRM impulse by a lot.
  
• Change all LRMs to spread the same amount, pinned to the current spread of, like, a LRM 15 (Artemis still decreases spread)
  
• Make it so that an enemy must be spotted by TAG or NARC or UAV in order for you to indirectly fire, otherwise you have to spot them yourself.
  
• Get rid of the thing where the LRM arc gets taller if the target is not in LoS.

I think that about does it (well no, not really, but it’s a good smattering of ideas). I’m not gonna go into huge details about all of Step 3, because it’s all been said and explained before and I don’t particularly want to repeat myself for the 6th time. The value of these changes should be evident.

LRMs are the exact opposite of fire and forget! You click the mouse and follow the target as it moves around. Which is the opposite of fire and forget. Ballistics and Streaks are almost fire and forget.

Not against the suggestions for Depervation and Decay.

Flight speed was complained about when a mere 170KpH!

I personally like seeing LRMs arc over buildings (within reason). I didn't like it when My missiles bent 90 degrees in mid flight to drop on your head. But that was a long time ago.

Missiles are on my list of "Things that Killed me" no more often that any other weapon. Its why I don't think they are in need of any tinkering.

[Barkem Squirrel]

Over the weekend I had a drop with my team where I was the only one with LRMs in a Griffin 3M. Now one LRM 15, and 3 LRM 5's is not much too look at it, but if you know what you are doing you can rain hell on the other team.

Now I focused the one Direwolf that walked across one open area and when he got near the one hill he hid right beside it due to a red center torso, then later on he poked out and I killed him with a ML shot. So while he was sniveling like a spoiled brat chatting about all the LRMs we had another Direwolf tried the same route. He did not run for cover and died to LRMs. Then right behind him a third Direwolf I was able to blow a leg, arm and side torso off before he ran into a few of my team members. By this point the remainder of the other team had been forced into the open area and I was just picking and choosing who to target.

It is not how many LRM boats you have, but how efficient and trained the LRM boater is.

The LRM complaints from this match were taken as a complement. I took three direwolfs out of the fight and was finishing off stranglers running from the rest of my team and still had over 90% health. What else did I do, well I was able to watch the other 9 mechs go charging through that open area and tell my team where they were going. Then I waited for the direwhales since I watched them go into the canyon to come out in F6 in Tremoline. No ECM, just good placement and knowing when to fire and when not to fire.

Edited by Barkem Squirrel, 17 November 2014 - 06:01 AM.

[ollo]

Egomane, on 17 November 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

If the merging would work properly, I would have cleaned up and merged a lot topics already. Right now this isn't reliably possible and therfore we refrain from using it at all, as we do not want to lose whole threads in the process.

Now back on topic please!

Well, perhaps you could speak to someone at PGI about my idea to force all "LRM OP"-posters into trial LRM boats for 20 matches? No threads lost there...

Edited by ollo, 17 November 2014 - 05:58 AM.

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 05:51 AM, said:

LRMs are the exact opposite of fire and forget! You click the mouse and follow the target as it moves around. Which is the opposite of fire and forget. Ballistics and Streaks are almost fire and forget.

Not against the suggestions for Depervation and Decay.

Flight speed was complained about when a mere 170KpH!

I personally like seeing LRMs arc over buildings (within reason). I didn't like it when My missiles bent 90 degrees in mid flight to drop on your head. But that was a long time ago.

Missiles are on my list of "Things that Killed me" no more often that any other weapon. Its why I don't think they are in need of any tinkering.

See, you are welcome to have your own opinion. That statement above was from the comp guy. I dont agree 100% with his idea but the fact that ppl wanna tell us that comp ppl dont have a problem with lrms doesnt matches reality.

i really welcome the latest change in your tone and the more respect you show by posting ideas and argues instead assumes and offends.

[Kensaisama]

Let's see..... what did I say in that one thread? Oh yes, its all fun and games until someone takes a hot load of missiles to the face

[Blood Rose]

*Sigh* more LRM whining.... One does wish that PGI would just lock all these threads, remove the radar derp module and convert the ECM to do what said derp module does. And then introduce some decent tutorials to prevent the scru-Redshir-Bad play-n00-Beginners how to play.

[Joseph Mallan]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 17 November 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:

See, you are welcome to have your own opinion. That statement above was from the comp guy. I dont agree 100% with his idea but the fact that ppl wanna tell us that comp ppl dont have a problem with lrms doesnt matches reality.

i really welcome the latest change in your tone and the more respect you show by posting ideas and argues instead assumes and offends.

I know Jman from the forum (IF its the same Jman) He and I agree and disagree often. I like how he lays out his suggestions and in general find him a respectable guy. He also doesn't post topics with the sky is falling in the title. I played the game just fine for going on 3 years. I have faced and lived through every complained about mega weapon complaints, with the same calm as I do now. It is not the end of the game as you know it. I have plenty of fun matches against LRM heavy opponents, Gauss heavy Opponents, AC20 heavy... You get the picture. I have overcome all of the combinations through trial and error.

If you are offended by my posts its on you not my posts. I do not insult, I mildly criticize, when I read when I find something over dramatized. and the level of Hyperbole in the title is silly.

The Game is playable as is. It just isn't played how YOU(and others) want it played. I play an Atlas. I don't out run Missiles, and yet I can play the game just fine.

Is it a problem that 2 Mechs bring 120 missiles or 6 mechs with an LRM20 each? If 12 Mechs have an LRM10 each is that to much missile? Its 120 missiles in teh air at a time?

Kensaisama, on 17 November 2014 - 06:08 AM, said:

Let's see..... what did I say in that one thread? Oh yes, its all fun and games until someone takes a hot load of missiles to the face

Or artillery, Gauss, AC, PPC, Lasers, Streaks, SRMs... Did I miss any of the other "unplayable" weapon complaints?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 November 2014 - 06:27 AM.

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 06:26 AM, said:

I know Jman from the forum (IF its the same Jman) He and I agree and disagree often. I like how he lays out his suggestions and in general find him a respectable guy. He also doesn't post topics with the sky is falling in the title. I played the game just fine for going on 3 years. I have faced and lived through every complained about mega weapon complaints, with the same calm as I have now. It is not the end of the game as you know it. I have plenty of fun matches against LRM heavy opponents, Gauss heavy Opponents, AC20 heavy... You get the picture. I have overcome all of the combinations through trial and error.

If you are offended by my posts its on you not my posts. I do not insult, I mildly criticize, when I read when I find something over dramatized. and the level of Hyperbole in the title is silly.

The Game is playable as is. It just isn't played how YOU(and others) want it played. I play an Atlas. I don't out run Missiles, and yet I can play the game just fine.

Is it a problem that 2 Mechs bring 120 missiles or 6 mechs with an LRM20 each? If 12 Mechs have an LRM10 each is that to much missile? Its 120 missiles in teh air at a time?


Or artillery, Gauss, AC, PPC, Lasers, Streaks, SRMs... Did I miss any of the other "unplayable" weapon complaints?

Nah read your first posts..You were blindly assuming degrading stuff.

HIs name is Gman btw You mean another person with jman

Edited by ThisMachineKillsFascists, 17 November 2014 - 06:28 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

ollo, on 17 November 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

Well, perhaps you could speak to someone at PGI about my idea to force all "LRM OP"-posters into trial LRM boats for 20 matches? No threads lost there...

That is cruel and unusual punishment Sir!

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 17 November 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

Nah read your first posts..You were blindly assuming degrading stuff.

HIs name is Gman btw You mean another person with jman

Yes... Yes I did!

[CrushLibs]

Compared to LRMs in MW3 or MWLL these missles are alot of work to keep lock vs fire and forget.

BUT the missles needs to be tweaked due to problems that make them OP

1. LRMs shouldn't sweep the ground , missles don't come down at a 80 degree angle and then suddenly turn and sweep the ground and clip your legs

2. Cover should work better , I hide behind a wall that is higher than my mech I shouldn't get leg damage or any .

3. launch angles and drop angles should be reworked

Fix the problem PGI not nerf it or make it worse, FIX IT.

Edited by CrushLibs, 17 November 2014 - 06:37 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

CrushLibs, on 17 November 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:

Compared to LRMs in MW3 or MWLL these missles are alot of work to keep lock vs fire and forget.

BUT the missles needs to be tweaked due to problems that make them OP

1. LRMs shouldn't sweep the ground , missles don't come down at a 80 degree angle and then suddenly turn and sweep the ground and clip your legs

2. Cover should work better , I hide behind a wall that is higher than my mech I shouldn't get leg damage or any .

3. launch angles and drop angles should be reworked

Fix the problem PGI not nerf it or make it worse, FIX IT.

These are things I do agree need fixed, Plus the occasional Missiles slamming into the ground because of a elevation difference. Those annoy me!

[Widowmaker1981]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 15 November 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

dual ams with overlord and the ams range Module do kill how many missiles out of a volley of 60? 20-30? Still not effective enuff imo

"My 2 ton defense system ONLY removes 33 - 50% of the damage of a 28 ton (+ammo) weapon loadout, this is so unfair!"

SMH.

Can i has a AGS that halves the damage of Gauss rifles for 2 tons?

thought not.

[STEF_]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 05:35 AM, said:

Yeah, but on TT you don't have to whether the impacts. and to a degree on TT LRMs are a psych. You know how long it takes to tally all teh 5 point locations... Dread!

And I just cannot get behind any challenges using skill when a game is using a mouse as the interface. Point and click is easy to do. Even for a 48 year old.

Lrms sprays dmg in TT too, but they do dmg even if the target pilot has the highest piloting skill value.
In mwo is just the opposite; the more the target has skill the less that target is hit by lrm.

I think that increasing lrm speed should work.

Another issue is lock mechanics. In TT lock check is mandatory every turn, and indirect fire is more difficult, too.
Maybe adding 1 sec to indirect fire could be fair; and losing lock once every tube is fired (both direct and indirect), it would give us a TT right flavor.
Lock a little more difficult but lrm more usefull for damaging enemy due to higher missile's speed, not only an annoying weapon.

(and yes, point and click is really easy for us, old farts heheheh, even if high dmg convergence is the devil, giving a lot of issues to mwo)

[Joseph Mallan]

It did work Stefka, Its why the speed was lowered again

[Kensaisama]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 06:26 AM, said:

Or artillery, Gauss, AC, PPC, Lasers, Streaks, SRMs... Did I miss any of the other "unplayable" weapon complaints?

But LRM's are THE most complained about weapon system on the forum. Until such time as the current king is dethroned, I shall not change my saying until then

[STEF_]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

It did work Stefka, Its why the speed was lowered again

What can I say..... I've lurmed to death 2 or 3 times in 6 months with this account (around 3500 matches played since june).
And those 2-3 times it was entirely my fault

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 17 November 2014 - 06:55 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kensaisama, on 17 November 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

But LRM's are THE most complained about weapon system on the forum. Until such time as the current king is dethroned, I shall not change my saying until then

That doesn't mean they are an OP weapon, just that there are a lot of them and the complaining is usually from those who want to brawl or look their enemy in the eye as they fight. But that is not how Everyone wants to fight. What is n ot fun for some IS fun for others. Its why I don't complain about how players fight in the game. The more Variety the better the game. When I die I see a Litany of of Weapons ranging from MGs to LRMs. Thats a good mix in my book. Some times its AC20 Lrg laser LRM10 or MGs, PPC and SRMs, but once in a while its LRM15, LRM20, LRM5 Medium lasers. Good mix if you ask me.

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

Stefka Kerensky, on 17 November 2014 - 06:44 AM, said:

Lrms sprays dmg in TT too, but they do dmg even if the target pilot has the highest piloting skill value.
In mwo is just the opposite; the more the target has skill the less that target is hit by lrm.

I think that increasing lrm speed should work.

Another issue is lock mechanics. In TT lock check is mandatory every turn, and indirect fire is more difficult, too.
Maybe adding 1 sec to indirect fire could be fair; and losing lock once every tube is fired (both direct and indirect), it would give us a TT right flavor.
Lock a little more difficult but lrm more usefull for damaging enemy due to higher missile's speed, not only an annoying weapon.

(and yes, point and click is really easy for us, old farts heheheh, even if high dmg convergence is the devil, giving a lot of issues to mwo)

The game doesnt have to follow TT entirely tbh but indirect locks are a problem indeed

Yes change of the mechanic to make them more skill based and more effective would help the lrm even if some people here on the forum think when seeing a lrm complain thread that the lrm´s could get nerfed into the ground. Thats infact not my intention.

And since lrms are actually pretty bad (according to the posters in this thread - i dont necessaryly agree with them)and useless why not make them more usefull and skillfull by changing the hole lrm mechanic from the ground?

I do understand those ppl´s reaction and fear to be honest a bit because usually if pgi changes something they nerf it into the ground Aka Er ppc or JJ´s

Edited by ThisMachineKillsFascists, 17 November 2014 - 07:36 AM.

[Davegt27]

Quote

Pretty much game is unplayble since a few months due to intense lrm rains. Not that the arc of those lrms are insane, narc adds a different quality to the lrm rain too.

I play everyday
your going to have times when LRMS are all over you other times when you don't get hit
some times you will have the Super Mech and can do no wrong
sometimes you over heat in a snap other times when you thing you figured out the best loadout

its called balance (you win some you lose some)
if you die because of LRMs its because you where supposed to die to keep/make your sats right

so just get out there and haves some fun

[Yumemi79]

Widowmaker1981, on 17 November 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

Can i has a AGS that halves the damage of Gauss rifles for 2 tons?

thought not.

While i agree on the AMS/LRM ton ration, i also believe that you hardly get targetet by 5-7 gausscannons at once while fighting someone else. Or magic missiles hitting you from wierd angles behind the tallest building in the universe, just because you got narced or taged by a scout. ^^