262 replies to this topic

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

Fut, on 15 November 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

Exactly. The problem isn't with LRMs, it's with people's failure to deal with them in the appropriate manner.

To your second point; LRMs are weak as hell. Jump into a HBK-4J for awhile, then let us know how OP you think the weapon system is. The reason you see 4-6 people with some LRMs on their build is because people are starting to see the benefits of a mixed load-out. If you bring an AC, an LRM rack, and some MLs you can engage the enemy a great number of ranges.



What, you want AMS to shoot down 100% of the missiles coming at you?

At least you talk with more respect. Thats a progress

Edited by ThisMachineKillsFascists, 15 November 2014 - 12:25 PM.

[Abivard]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 15 November 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

dual ams with overlord and the ams range Module do kill how many missiles out of a volley of 60? 20-30? Still not effective enuff imo

AHA! the OP simply wants an invulnerability shield for his mech! roflmbao, now that is eezy peezy lameness at it's height.

[bobF]

Fut, on 15 November 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

Exactly. The problem isn't with LRMs, it's with people's failure to deal with them in the appropriate manner.

I agree 100%. It's just highly frustrating when those appropriate manners turn to garbage with changes in other systems, and we are left to the half-assed fun of most team zergs cowering behind a tall hill or building, and maybe 2-4 AMS systems pot-shotting the looooooooooooooong trails of incoming blue and yellow missiles.

Some matches the majority of the game is just moving from cover to cover, avoiding the lrm god's wrath. It's shallow, skill-less gameplay.

[James DeGriz]

Willard Phule, on 15 November 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Different queues, different dynamics.

It never fails to amaze. Some guy that plays primarily in the group queue comes to the solo queue during an event...when it's swarmed harder than normal...and experiences the same thing that everyone that plays in the solo queue exclusively has been experiencing for MONTHS.

I know I can't confirm this with any posts newer than a year or so but we get a LOT of new or very inexperienced players in the solo queue's general population. New and inexperienced players prefer "fire and forget" weapons that don't require them to aim....so, you get LRMs and the occasional SSRM boat. It is what it is. It's a shame they don't use BAP/CAP but, whatever.

During events, especially one that's focused on your ability to get assists as opposed to kills, you really should expect to fight in the shade.

I think this really sums it up for me. There is a much more direct way of not being killed by LRMs if they are ruining your day, than calling for nerfs. Use that stuff between your ears to avoid them. Adapt. Be proactive. Sitting back and getting wet eye, then coming on to the forums to moan about how the bad CheeseBoats gave you a sad doesn't change anything. Really, it changes nothing.

This is supposed to be "The Thinking Mans Shooter". If it is, be a Thinking Man. Not a brainless child.

Edited by James DeGriz, 15 November 2014 - 12:33 PM.

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

Abivard, on 15 November 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

AHA! the OP simply wants an invulnerability shield for his mech! roflmbao, now that is eezy peezy lameness at it's height.

20- 30% isnt effective at all.. 50% would be imo .. half ammount you assume me to want : stay classy

James DeGriz, on 15 November 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

I think this really sums it up for me. There is a much more direct way of not being killed by LRMs if they are ruining your day, than calling for nerfs. Use that stuff between your ears to avoid them. Adapt. Be proactive. Sitting back and getting wet eye, then coming on to the forums to moan about how the bad CheeseBoats gave you a sad doesn't change anything. Really, it changes nothing.

This is supposed to be "The Thinking Mans Shooter". If it is, be a Thinking Man. Not a brainless child.

So throwing lrms all over the place with eazy peezy lock mode is the thinkings man shooter?

Edited by ThisMachineKillsFascists, 15 November 2014 - 12:34 PM.

[Crockdaddy]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 15 November 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

Pretty much game is unplayble since a few months due to intense lrm rains. Not that the arc of those lrms are insane, narc adds a different quality to the lrm rain too.

"go behind cover" doesnt work due to the ridiculous arc

i dont mind some lrm mechs but when half of the enemy Team is Boating lrm 50 and more is then this gets just silly.

Dumb animals can play a lrm mech.

Pgi has to act fast.

When challenges are on some ppl usually try to do the challenge with min effort. That means boating lrms.

I dont blame those ppl but pgi because of the broken lrm mechanic.

Go ahead and suggest below how the lrm mechanic could be changed from the "ground" if needed

Hmmm ...

First ... don't be bad, practice more and work with others.
Second ... use AMS.
Third ... use cover.
Fourth ... bring an ECM mech.
Fifth ... group up. Competitive units don't use LRMs ... they just are not that effective for winning.
Six ... Lurms are a great way to get easy assists and leveling

[Andi Nagasia]

to this another LRM discussion,
(not that we need another)
i feel you need to first ask what it means to be an LRM Support?
LRMs in general are easy to use hard to Use well weapon,

example
it takes little to no Skill to Fire LRMs on a targeted target,
but to make sure that all those missiles hit takes a lot,


the Low/No Skill
yes there are those who will equip 50+LRMs and 3000 ammo,
and spam their Missiles at anything and everything they lock on to,
but in general if your behind/under cover all their doing is wasting ammo,
it is these people that cant or don't know how to fight directly,
and it shows when a light runs at them, they cower,

the High/Support Skill
these are people that bring support to the game missile wise,
these people most always will have a secondary weapon in case they run out of ammo,
they will target and fire on enemies that are sure they can hit, or enemies they can suppress,
they will move about the battlefield striping armor off enemies so allies can finish them off,
they will fire on enemies forcing them to stay in cover so Allies can move more freely,
in a rush they are right being the heavies aiding support, firing over their heads,

theses are how LRM players Play,
yes you don't need much skill to use them,
-just's a Lock on, (Lock and Fire)
-add Luck, (Lucky if you get many hits)
but to use them well you need,
-you need Positioning, (know where you are)
-Enemy awareness, (know where the enemy is)
-Ally awareness, (know where the ally is)
-Situational awareness, (know where you & allies are in relation to Enemies)
-Cunning, (you need to out think Cover & ECM even if that means dumb firing)
-Lock on, (Lock on and wait till you can hit the enemy and then Fire)


My Solution to LRMS,
decrease target accusation from 1010m down to 800m,
this will let teams move about more freely at extreme ranges,
and most damage past 800m will be LOS, or scouting,
also BAP/CAP will boost it back to their 1000m range,
(made a mistake radar range is 800m, oops)


LRMs arn't that hardest to Use,
just the hardest to Use Well,

Thanks,

Edit- made a mistake(redacted it)

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 15 November 2014 - 02:31 PM.

[Jacobei]

LRM requires little skill and zero tactics and teamwork for the LRM Boater. They need others to target and hold and then they leech damage. But they don't need that person to with them as a team.

Narc and Tag

Tag -Their is "skill" in using the tag laser but so much so that it is under used. Its a no damage give away for enemies to spray and pray for damage. Also the LRM bloater (I mean) boater gets all the glory and more reward. But they did not have to face the enemy and hold visual/lase target....

Narc - LRM has made Narc just as rad. The teamwork required is limited and the LRM boaters will take the glory and points. But you get some to now so YAY. Narc the lights with a heavy LRM boater and is a easy three kills.

This leads to the missile arc issue. I would agree there is no hiding from a narc/lrm missile combo and its very frustrating. Some maps and map areas leave no where to hide from them. Do I think its an ark issue NO. I think:

1. AMS should be easier to equipped and should change to Lasers with no ammo requirements. As natural game lore would also support the advancement of technology for combat tactics
2. Kill rights should go to narc'er - They are given % of all damage and will get kill if they top = if more then one lrm boat hits target his odds increase

Missle ark nerfs could easily make LRM gimped.

[James DeGriz]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 15 November 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

So throwing lrms all over the place with eazy peezy lock mode is the thinkings man shooter?

Many players will take the path of least resistance. If LRMs are nerfed to uselessness, they'll just use something else. We saw it with pop tart PPCers, we've seen it with LRMs. We'll see it with something else no doubt as well. If you are unwilling to face these challenges and adapt to them, then you're just going to be in the same position time and time again.

Adapting to them is the thinking man part. That's the bit you're clearly not doing. Honestly, I was just like you. Frustrated by LRMs, praying they'd be nerfed to all hell and feeling fairly disgruntled at the kinds of people who would (t)roll out the same "Use cover, use ams, yadda yadda yadda".

Thing is, once you let go of that "Aaaah I can't do anything NERF TTHEEEM" and start to adopt the position of "There is nothing that will change this, so how can I change the way I play to get around it" the problem magically disappears.

Edited by James DeGriz, 15 November 2014 - 12:57 PM.

[H I A S]

KharnZor, on 15 November 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

LRM are crap.
Nobody of the top10 Units will Run LRM.
In Leaugeplay LRM are a Autolose.

Edited by HiasRGB, 15 November 2014 - 12:59 PM.

[Squarebasher]

roland had the best idea below

[color=#959595]Changes to Long Range Missiles[/color]

[color=#959595]The final section of this proposal includes an overhaul of the LRM weapons systems. I think many folks agree that LRM's have been a consistent source of balance issues. This isn't because they are necessarily under or over-powered, but rather because they function in such a way as to make their performance extremely inconsistent across different matches. Against some opponents they are like the hand of God, crushing targets who have virtually no way to counter attack. Against others, they are a complete waste of weapons tonnage. Very rarely do LRM's ever seem balanced to all parties involved. The result of this is a weapon system which will often be a source of frustration for either the shooter or the target.[/color]

[color=#959595]A big part of this has already been addressed above, by the removal of ECM's ability to affect missiles. With that change, LRM's can no longer be automatically negated by a 1.5 ton piece of equipment.[/color]

[color=#959595]However, the overall impact of allowing LRM's to target mechs without LOS results in some major balance problems. Getting pummeled by LRM's from a mech behind cover is really quite un-fun.. And with sensors able to gain detections through terrain, this would be greatly magnified, as you could potentially be spotted by someone who is under cover.[/color]

[color=#959595]In order to address this, I would make LRM's require a direct LOS in order to fire on a target. That is, you would be required to not only hold the target yourself to lock missiles on it, but you would actually have to expose your mech to return fire to get the lock.[/color]

[color=#959595]The exception to this rule will be TAG and NARC. If a mech is tagged or Narc'ed, then that mech will then be able to be targeted indirectly, as is the case today. Effectively, if a mech is tagged or narced, it's as though every mech has a direct LOS to that target.[/color]

[color=#959595]Now, the requirement for direct LOS (excepting Narc and Tag) itself would be crippling to LRM's as they exist today, because in a direct firefight LRM"s have many disadvantages. To counterbalance this, the second change I would make to missiles would be that I would revert them to their original mechanic they had in closed beta, where missiles continue to track a target once fired, without the shooter needing to hold lock. This has an important impact, in that it makes LRM's much more useful in terms of direct combat, in that a shooter does not need to just continue staring at a target to hold a lock. LRM carriers can engage in normal combat, spreading and soaking damage just like everyone else. This has the effect of making it so that LRM's will become more compatible with other direct fire weaponry, enabling mechs which are effective with a mix of LRM's and other weaponry.[/color]

[color=#959595]Further, I suggest making it such that LRM's do not actually need a radar lock to fire on a target. That is, if you can directly see an enemy mech, you can lock LRM's onto it regardless of whether it's within radar detection range. So at no point are you stuck in a situation where those LRM's are useless. If you can see a mech, and it's within range of your missiles, you can hit it.[/color]

[color=#959595]Thus, under such a system, a shooter could have targets on radar, either through his teammates relayed contacts or his own radar system. However, he would need to position himself in such a fashion as to get direct LOS on those targets to start raining down LRM's onto them. But once in position, he would only need to expose himself for as long as it took to get a missile lock (a second or so), unleash his missiles, and then he would be free to duck down behind cover.[/color]

[color=#959595]The target gets an opportunity to fire on the LRM shooter, while the LRM shooter is guaranteed to be able to use his missiles. What's more, he knows that if he fires those missiles, there's a quite good chance of them actually hitting the target. Overall, neither player is put in a position where he feels powerless, or his weapons feel useless.[/color]

[color=#959595]Also, given that LRM's are then used in a situation which is a bit more similar to other weaponry, this should make them easier to balance.[/color]

[bobF]

Pages of these lrm complaint posts are filled with the same content. Are there nubs that just die to lrms because they suck? Yes. But consider a different perspective, from a former DDC pilot (that also mounted ams).

ECM is the only true viable counter to lrm spam. Could every mech mount ams, and there be a huge cloud of ams fire eating up all the spam, or a at least a good portion of it? YES. I've even seen a couple rare games where like 10 mechs brought ams, and there were glorious (and highly visually appealing) moments of lrm spam getting ownd. But we're talking about viable counters. Certain light pilots were cool also, but the assault mounting ECM brought some team love to the table (pretty much to make up for the fact that it's effective at only 270m). Your ECM buddy allowed you some wiggle room to actually MOVE AROUND THE MAP WITHOUT HAVING TO FACEHUMP COVER.

But there was a problem. You know those people who posted how ECM was basically an "I win" for team? They we're kinda right. Good ECM cover on one team vs none on the other was a slaughter; not because the ECM'd team could move about tactically stealthed, but because the mechanics allowed for the ECM'd team to rain down lrm with impunity. The other team, with no ECM, was helpless: can't lrm back, and has to sit there and take it in the rear. The ECM team knows where they are hiding, closes, and finishes the game. 12-2, ggclose. The clumsy answer was to just hard counter ECM.

Did it work? Yes. At the cost of new obsolete ECM mechs (since mounting ECM requires a hardpoint) and reversion to an even more simple-minded play.

The passive play, the huddling behind buildings, the uncreative team movements, all contribute to shallow and predictable gameplay. For me, it isn't about lrms being this thing i die to all the time, it's about the mechanic keeping the game less exciting and dynamic.

Sadly, we're all at a hard place, because it's resoundingly clear that electronic warfare needs some thought and resource put into it. Changing it beyond adhering to the TT rules/lore, and making systems that make more sense in a live online environment. Use the lore as a guide, then devise a fun mechanic. Again I'mm gonna plug it, for myself and everyone else with the same idea: make these systems have activated, timed abilities with a cooldown. Make electronic warfare have more depth, rather than being hard, passive aura counters for weapons or other systems.

Just like in mmo pvp mechanics, proper revamping of electronic warfare could make lrms into another ability you can debuff or temporarily counter. ECM could be balanced to still be invaluable for lrm spam control, but not give autowin to their team. With layers of systems available to completely counter lrms, lrms could be looked at for buffs making them a useful system in such an environment, new tactics added, and skilled play needed.

But that's idealism talking. Realistically, PGI should just reduce BAP range (or make it dependent on a hardpoint), alter ECM effective ranges and effects, and cross their fingers as they've always done.

ECM has always solved the lrm spam problem, and with super BAP power, you're going to see a resurgence of these lrm whine posts. Despite the damage nerf.

[RockmachinE]

LRMs are ruining gameplay, keep the activism alive. Keep posting those threads.

Edited by Louis Brofist, 15 November 2014 - 01:19 PM.

[AdamBaines]

Worst....thread....ever......

[bobF]

HiasRGB, on 15 November 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

LRM are crap.
Nobody of the top10 Units will Run LRM.
In Leaugeplay LRM are a Autolose.

So you mean because like a handful of neckbeards think lrms are worthless, that's immutable truth for the remaining 99% of the playerbase?













































k.

[Abivard]

bobF, on 15 November 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

So you mean because like a handful of neckbeards think lrms are worthless, that's immutable truth for the remaining 99% of the playerbase?

99% of the players think LRM's are OP?

More like 99% of the players that know how to play think LRM's are just about worthless.
Among those who refuse to Learn anything beyond the most rudimentary of basic skills in MWO I doubt even half think they are a threat.

It takes a real special kind of person to think LRM's are OP.

[bobF]

Abivard, on 15 November 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

99% of the players think LRM's are OP?

More like 99% of the players that know how to play think LRM's are just about worthless.
Among those who refuse to Learn anything beyond the most rudimentary of basic skills in MWO I doubt even half think they are a threat.

It takes a real special kind of person to think LRM's are OP.

Straw man much? Lrms are either worthless or OP? They aren't worthless at all. They functionally punish poor positioning, and reward the scout/spotter role. I know, in super comp land, where humans make their valuable contribution to society by playing this game 8+ hours a day, lrms don't make sense. You guys rush each other super fast and whoever flanks faster/better with ppfld wins. Truly, such an enlightened and advanced group of gamers.

However, in common group play and especially in puglandia, lrms control team movement and greatly contribute to softening up the enemy. I don't think lots of people are dying to lrms. I think lots of people are getting damaged to like 60% (depending on exposure and enemy positioning as you close to engage) from people they can't even return fire at.

When you're done getting carried by your premade and want to experiment on how self-sufficient you truly are in battle, try out the solo queue. LRMs will quickly threaten your w/l ratio, right away.

Edited by bobF, 15 November 2014 - 01:45 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Never drop without radar derp.

[H I A S]

bobF, on 15 November 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

So you mean because like a handful of neckbeards think lrms are worthless, that's immutable truth for the remaining 99% of the playerbase?

Than 99% Terribads.

[CtrlAltWheee]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 15 November 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

Edit: no one said lrm´s have to get nerfed until they are useless. I would welcome any good ideas which change the hole lrm mechaninc from ground so they remain to be a good weapon but not a EASY MODE weapon

The "easy mode" criticism is misplaced. Lasers hit where my mouse is. Could anything be easier than that?

The lrm complaint threads need polls so the silent majority can say "lrms are fine" and not engage in the forum.