262 replies to this topic

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

Squarebasher, on 15 November 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

roland had the best idea below

[color=#959595]Changes to Long Range Missiles[/color]

[color=#959595]The final section of this proposal includes an overhaul of the LRM weapons systems. I think many folks agree that LRM's have been a consistent source of balance issues. This isn't because they are necessarily under or over-powered, but rather because they function in such a way as to make their performance extremely inconsistent across different matches. Against some opponents they are like the hand of God, crushing targets who have virtually no way to counter attack. Against others, they are a complete waste of weapons tonnage. Very rarely do LRM's ever seem balanced to all parties involved. The result of this is a weapon system which will often be a source of frustration for either the shooter or the target.[/color]

[color=#959595]A big part of this has already been addressed above, by the removal of ECM's ability to affect missiles. With that change, LRM's can no longer be automatically negated by a 1.5 ton piece of equipment.[/color]

[color=#959595]However, the overall impact of allowing LRM's to target mechs without LOS results in some major balance problems. Getting pummeled by LRM's from a mech behind cover is really quite un-fun.. And with sensors able to gain detections through terrain, this would be greatly magnified, as you could potentially be spotted by someone who is under cover.[/color]

[color=#959595]In order to address this, I would make LRM's require a direct LOS in order to fire on a target. That is, you would be required to not only hold the target yourself to lock missiles on it, but you would actually have to expose your mech to return fire to get the lock.[/color]

[color=#959595]The exception to this rule will be TAG and NARC. If a mech is tagged or Narc'ed, then that mech will then be able to be targeted indirectly, as is the case today. Effectively, if a mech is tagged or narced, it's as though every mech has a direct LOS to that target.[/color]

[color=#959595]Now, the requirement for direct LOS (excepting Narc and Tag) itself would be crippling to LRM's as they exist today, because in a direct firefight LRM"s have many disadvantages. To counterbalance this, the second change I would make to missiles would be that I would revert them to their original mechanic they had in closed beta, where missiles continue to track a target once fired, without the shooter needing to hold lock. This has an important impact, in that it makes LRM's much more useful in terms of direct combat, in that a shooter does not need to just continue staring at a target to hold a lock. LRM carriers can engage in normal combat, spreading and soaking damage just like everyone else. This has the effect of making it so that LRM's will become more compatible with other direct fire weaponry, enabling mechs which are effective with a mix of LRM's and other weaponry.[/color]

[color=#959595]Further, I suggest making it such that LRM's do not actually need a radar lock to fire on a target. That is, if you can directly see an enemy mech, you can lock LRM's onto it regardless of whether it's within radar detection range. So at no point are you stuck in a situation where those LRM's are useless. If you can see a mech, and it's within range of your missiles, you can hit it.[/color]

[color=#959595]Thus, under such a system, a shooter could have targets on radar, either through his teammates relayed contacts or his own radar system. However, he would need to position himself in such a fashion as to get direct LOS on those targets to start raining down LRM's onto them. But once in position, he would only need to expose himself for as long as it took to get a missile lock (a second or so), unleash his missiles, and then he would be free to duck down behind cover.[/color]

[color=#959595]The target gets an opportunity to fire on the LRM shooter, while the LRM shooter is guaranteed to be able to use his missiles. What's more, he knows that if he fires those missiles, there's a quite good chance of them actually hitting the target. Overall, neither player is put in a position where he feels powerless, or his weapons feel useless.[/color]

[color=#959595]Also, given that LRM's are then used in a situation which is a bit more similar to other weaponry, this should make them easier to balance.[/color]

I agree on Rolands interpreatation why there are soo many different opinions wether lrms are no usefull and really good or just useless or not so good.

How ever i wouldnt like his suggested mechanic where a lrm - once locked will guid its target no matter if you keep aiming on the enemy radical or not.

But either way his suggestion of a lrm mechanic is like a directline of sight weapon. And i could live with that rather than the curent lrm mechanic while you still have to get your own locks and still expose yourself to the enemy.


Anyways squarebasher.. Thx for bringing this specific and well thought suggestion into this thread

[KharnZor]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 15 November 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

Hehe, dont see you tearing ppl with your A1.. Last match you did only 240 dmg

You'll never see me in an A1. Ever.
I like how you think i give a damn, 240 damage who cares? i've had lower scoring games than that it happens sometimes, i deal with it then move on.

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

CtrlAltWheee, on 15 November 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

The "easy mode" criticism is misplaced. Lasers hit where my mouse is. Could anything be easier than that?

The lrm complaint threads need polls so the silent majority can say "lrms are fine" and not engage in the forum.

you dont need to aim with your lock.and you benefit from indirect locks without line of sight. Thats what i meant with eazy peezy.

Anyways i would like to have a poll but i think polls are not allowed in general forum sub .

KharnZor, on 15 November 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

You'll never see me in an A1. Ever.
I like how you think i give a damn, 240 damage who cares? i've had lower scoring games than that it happens sometimes, i deal with it then move on.

my bad.. Misquoted i guess.Meant mechwarriorbuddah with the cpt a1 as i had a match against him in his a1

Edited by ThisMachineKillsFascists, 15 November 2014 - 02:17 PM.

[RazorbeastFXK3]

Spreading the damage by twisting your torso side to side as you seek cover helps a little to keep you alive. And even if you're narc'd and behind cover, sure the LRM launcher only can tell they're hitting you when their reticule flashes red but they'll keep firing in hopes you'll poke your head out from behind cover before the NARC Beacon expires.

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 15 November 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

Pretty much game is unplayble since a few months due to intense lrm rains. Not that the arc of those lrms are insane, narc adds a different quality to the lrm rain too.

The "ridiculous arc" isn't that "ridiculous" honestly.. Sure it assists with going over obstacles but that's all it does.. If the target moves laterally the LRM flight path doesn't adjust to the new obstacle conditions which can result in the LRMs slamming into a new obstacle which wasn't in the original flight path.

Then there are the times when overhead obstacles block the flight path because the LRM was only designed to go over terrain/grounded structures. Plenty of times when I used LRMs on Tourmaline my missiles would slam into the stone arches above because the LRMs cannot go straight up from the launcher then out towards the target.

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 15 November 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

"go behind cover" doesnt work due to the ridiculous arc

I'm guessing those "some lrm mechs" are the ones who can't equip anything but missiles and you 'specially don't mind the ones that only have LRMs equipped because they're helpless at close range combat.

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 15 November 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

i dont mind some lrm mechs but when half of the enemy Team is Boating lrm 50 and more is then this gets just silly.

Dumb animals can also step on the triggers of loaded weapons resulting in the death of humans.

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 15 November 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

Dumb animals can play a lrm mech.

PGI is doing what they can to iron out glitches and bugs in the system. They can't just "snap their fingers" and make everything work the way you demand.

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 15 November 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

Pgi has to act fast.

When challenges are on, most if not all people usually use what works best for them.. and most don't involve the use of LRM boats.

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 15 November 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

When challenges are on some ppl usually try to do the challenge with min effort. That means boating lrms.

I'm sure PGI loves that you're blaming them and not the community for the "broken lrm mechanic" but, as like me, doesn't understand exactly what needs to be "fine tuned" when it comes to how LRMs work.

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 15 November 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

I dont blame those ppl but pgi because of the broken lrm mechanic.

I normally add my comments "above" quotes so I'll just put my suggestion here:
LRMs don't need to be "fine tuned" as they work as designed. They have a limited tracking capability which is balanced towards both the target and the user so they are not "overpowered" as some like to think.

Players equipped with Artemis only benefit when they can see the target they are throwing their LRMs at and I'm not talking about the red blip on the radar. Players without Artemis spray and pray like a machine gun/autocannon runner does while hoping that over half their missile salvo connects with the target.

I'm guessing your idea of a "proper nerf/adjustment" would be to remove the flight path design entirely which would force all LRM users to go by line of sight engagements and if an obstacle gets in the way "oh well" because LRMs can't climb anything anymore so the target is saved from the onslaught.

But I'm sure that you're going to argue further about how LRMs will still be "easy peasy" weaponry even if the flight path/track design is removed. If I'm wrong.. yay me.

Reading through all your replies to everyone's comments made me remember seeing a picture of a person sitting near a chess board with a pigeon standing on the board..
"It's like playing chess with a pigeon; No matter how good I am at chess.. the pigeon is just going to knock over the pieces, crap on the board and strut around like it's victorious."

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 15 November 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

Go ahead and suggest below how the lrm mechanic could be changed from the "ground" if needed

[Abivard]

bobF, on 15 November 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

Straw man much? Lrms are either worthless or OP? They aren't worthless at all. They functionally punish poor positioning, and reward the scout/spotter role. I know, in super comp land, where humans make their valuable contribution to society by playing this game 8+ hours a day, lrms don't make sense. You guys rush each other super fast and whoever flanks faster/better with ppfld wins. Truly, such an enlightened and advanced group of gamers.

However, in common group play and especially in puglandia, lrms control team movement and greatly contribute to softening up the enemy. I don't think lots of people are dying to lrms. I think lots of people are getting damaged to like 60% (depending on exposure and enemy positioning as you close to engage) from people they can't even return fire at.

When you're done getting carried by your premade and want to experiment on how self-sufficient you truly are in battle, try out the solo queue. LRMs will quickly threaten your w/l ratio, right away.

Drop in solo queue all the time.
The only time LRM's threaten my W/L is if my team has the most LRM's, or if I am in with a bunch of poor players on my team.
Having a bunch of poor players on your team can cause you to lose to a team of flammer and MG armed mechs lol.

I don't even bother to mount AMS unless I am in a mech that needs to be exposed for long periods of time, like an LRM armed mech played correctly would be. But with the poor shape LRM's are in today, no skilled LRM pilots are using them outside the tournaments.

So the fact that unskilled players using vastly underpowered weapon systems are killing or seriously cramping your style is a poor reflection on your or your teammates skills, or lack thereof one should say, rather than the weapon being OP.

The odds are it isn't even the LRM's which kill or cripple you, it is all the other weapon types that don't make a huge production out of being fired at you that are doing it.

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 15 November 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

you dont need to aim with your lock.and you benefit from indirect locks without line of sight. Thats what i meant with eazy peezy.

I beg your pardon but the part I am quoting is just so wrong!

LRM's require you to Target, aim and lock. The ONLY other weapon that requires targeting and Locks are streaks, and those must also be AIMED!

I dare any person to show me they only have to target and not aim to hit with Streak/LRM's?

You can not, because to achieve lock, you have to AIM at the target and keep it on the target for up to several seconds to achieve lock.

All other weapons are simple point and click weapons.

Stop trying to delude yourself and others into thinking differently.

[mogs01gt]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 15 November 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

Pretty much game is unplayble since a few months due to intense lrm rains. Not that the arc of those lrms are insane, narc adds a different quality to the lrm rain too. "go behind cover" doesnt work due to the ridiculous arci dont mind some lrm mechs but when half of the enemy Team is Boating lrm 50 and more is then this gets just silly.Dumb animals can play a lrm mech.
Pgi has to act fast.
When challenges are on some ppl usually try to do the challenge with min effort. That means boating lrms.
I dont blame those ppl but pgi because of the broken lrm mechanic.
Go ahead and suggest below how the lrm mechanic could be changed from the "ground" if needed

The more you play, the more you realize why bad players complain about LRMs...

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

Abivard, on 15 November 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

Drop in solo queue all the time.
The only time LRM's threaten my W/L is if my team has the most LRM's, or if I am in with a bunch of poor players on my team.
Having a bunch of poor players on your team can cause you to lose to a team of flammer and MG armed mechs lol.

I don't even bother to mount AMS unless I am in a mech that needs to be exposed for long periods of time, like an LRM armed mech played correctly would be. But with the poor shape LRM's are in today, no skilled LRM pilots are using them outside the tournaments.

So the fact that unskilled players using vastly underpowered weapon systems are killing or seriously cramping your style is a poor reflection on your or your teammates skills, or lack thereof one should say, rather than the weapon being OP.

The odds are it isn't even the LRM's which kill or cripple you, it is all the other weapon types that don't make a huge production out of being fired at you that are doing it.



I beg your pardon but the part I am quoting is just so wrong!

LRM's require you to Target, aim and lock. The ONLY other weapon that requires targeting and Locks are streaks, and those must also be AIMED!

I dare any person to show me they only have to target and not aim to hit with Streak/LRM's?

You can not, because to achieve lock, you have to AIM at the target and keep it on the target for up to several seconds to achieve lock.

All other weapons are simple point and click weapons.

Stop trying to delude yourself and others into thinking differently.

Pls dont call holding lock aim
You dont precisely aim.. You can even miss the red enemy radical for some seconds.lol
thx

mogs01gt, on 15 November 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

The more you play, the more you realize why bad players complain about LRMs...

Kills / Death 4,263 / 2,271 C-Bills 3,051,635 Experience Points 3,261,764 Wins / Losses 1,768 / 1,675 Kill / Death Ratio 1.88 Accumulative C-Bills Per Match 99,282.34 Avg. XP Per Match 947.36
Didnt want to but here you go... This is even a alt account.. Iam here since 2 Years

Edited by ThisMachineKillsFascists, 15 November 2014 - 02:49 PM.

[Dazzer]

people keep saying Use cover , so your idea of a fun game is cowering behind a building ?

mehcwarrior is a game about big stompy robots fighting it out , not hiding behind building from the easy mode LRM rain.

LRM's are broken and make this game enjoyable.

I for one have stopped playing almost completely.

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

Dazzer, on 15 November 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

people keep saying Use cover , so your idea of a fun game is cowering behind a building ?

mehcwarrior is a game about big stompy robots fighting it out , not hiding behind building from the easy mode LRM rain.

LRM's are broken and make this game enjoyable.

I for one have stopped playing almost completely.

thx finally someone got the point

[RazorbeastFXK3]

People say to not be an idiot by just standing around taking the LRM barrage like an idiot. Be more strategic about the battle.. use cover to get closer to the enemy and take them out at close range if you can while hoping the target's short range combat skills are not better than yours.

Dazzer, on 15 November 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

people keep saying Use cover , so your idea of a fun game is cowering behind a building ?

That it is.. but everything can be destroyed with enough damage. You're not "hiding" as much as you are "staging an ambush" or staying away from the "LEEEEROOOOOY JENKIIIINS" fight style.

Dazzer, on 15 November 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

mehcwarrior is a game about big stompy robots fighting it out , not hiding behind building from the easy mode LRM rain.

LRMs are not broken.. they're flawed in the sense that they're not the "perfect weapon."

Dazzer, on 15 November 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

LRM's are broken and make this game enjoyable.

Glad to know you haven't given up on us and I look forward to joining your team or fighting against you.

Dazzer, on 15 November 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

I for one have stopped playing almost completely.

[Abivard]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 15 November 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

Pls dont call holding lock aim
You dont precisely aim.. You can even miss the red enemy radical for some seconds.lol
thx

No you can not!

these are the bare minimum steps needed.

Target mech

Aim at targeted mech to obtain lock, (anywhere from 1.5 seconds to 6 seconds if moved off target for even a microsecond must start locking timer over)

Fire Missiles

Locked target must be maintained for entire flight time(LRM speed is 150 M a second, means from 1.2 seconds to 8 seconds at maximum)

These steps never change, doesn't matter whether it is direct or indirect fire.

You don't even understand the very basics of LRM's, yet here you are trying to post against them.
Using irrational arguments, false hoods, myths denial and good old fashioned hyperbole.

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

Abivard, on 15 November 2014 - 02:51 PM, said:

No you can not!

these are the bare minimum steps needed.

Target mech

Aim at targeted mech to obtain lock, (anywhere from 1.5 seconds to 6 seconds if moved off target for even a microsecond must start locking timer over)

Fire Missiles

Locked target must be maintained for entire flight time(LRM speed is 150 M a second, means from 1.2 seconds to 8 seconds at maximum)

These steps never change, doesn't matter whether it is direct or indirect fire.

You don't even understand the very basics of LRM's, yet here you are trying to post against them.
Using irrational arguments, false hoods, myths denial and good old fashioned hyperbole.

Sure sure Alright.

I see now what your aim looks like with lazers if you compare it to the lrm so called " aim".. Dmg spread all over the mech if even hit

Edited by ThisMachineKillsFascists, 15 November 2014 - 02:58 PM.

[Abivard]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 15 November 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

Sure sure Alright.

I see now what your aim looks like with lazers if you compare it to the lrm so called " aim".. Dmg spread all over the mech if even hit

Your Aim with LRM's during the target lock must be even better than what you say about lasers, for the laser can track back and forth over and off the mech, Can not do that during LRM targeting lock on, if you wander off target you have to start over.

Also the laser doesn't need to target, or even SEE the enemy mech, they have a very good chance of hitting by firing blindly and waving the beam around at a suspected location and watching for the reticule to flash red and indicate they are hitting something hidden from view.

[James DeGriz]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 15 November 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

Kills / Death 4,263 / 2,271 C-Bills 3,051,635 Experience Points 3,261,764 Wins / Losses 1,768 / 1,675 Kill / Death Ratio 1.88 Accumulative C-Bills Per Match 99,282.34 Avg. XP Per Match 947.36
Didnt want to but here you go... This is even a alt account.. Iam here since 2 Years

I can tell you that my stats are a good deal worse than yours. I am average, probably even below average. However, I only die to LRMs if I do something stupid. Sometimes that is more frequently than I would like, but generally each time I know it's MY fault.

What do you think your stats prove exactly? That you're a good player? If you regularly die to LRMs, then the fact remains: you're not.

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

James DeGriz, on 15 November 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

I can tell you that my stats are a good deal worse than yours. I am average, probably even below average. However, I only die to LRMs if I do something stupid. Sometimes that is more frequently than I would like, but generally each time I know it's MY fault.

What do you think your stats prove exactly? That you're a good player? If you regularly die to LRMs, then the fact remains: you're not.

Guessed so that you trying to relfect your own experience on me.. Doesnt work on me bud.. I know what iam doing in my mechs. and who said i die alot due to lrm fire? as stated above multiple time( pls read some posts before asuming stuff) the game play when deal with multiple lrm boats is no fun.

[mogs01gt]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 15 November 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

Pls dont call holding lock aim
You dont precisely aim.. You can even miss the red enemy radical for some seconds.lol
thx[size=4] Kills / Death 4,263 / 2,271 C-Bills 3,051,635 Experience Points 3,261,764 Wins / Losses 1,768 / 1,675 Kill / Death Ratio 1.88 Accumulative C-Bills Per Match 99,282.34 Avg. XP Per Match 947.36
Didnt want to but here you go... This is even a alt account.. Iam here since 2 Years

2 years wow....You do realize that this game is designed to increase your KD over time due to the structure of the matches? You've played that long and only have a 1.88kd...

Edited by mogs01gt, 15 November 2014 - 03:17 PM.

[Mystere]

Dazzer, on 15 November 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

people keep saying Use cover , so your idea of a fun game is cowering behind a building ?

mehcwarrior is a game about big stompy robots fighting it out , not hiding behind building from the easy mode LRM rain.

LRM's are broken and make this game enjoyable.

I for one have stopped playing almost completely.

Well, you're actually supposed to use cover to break locks and temporarily shield yourself from missiles. But if your idea of "using cover" is to just cower behind it, then you're sadly doing it wrong.

Edited by Mystere, 15 November 2014 - 03:31 PM.

[James DeGriz]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 15 November 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

Guessed so that you trying to relfect your own experience on me.. Doesnt work on me bud.. I know what iam doing in my mechs. and who said i die alot due to lrm fire? as stated above multiple time( pls read some posts before asuming stuff) the game play when deal with multiple lrm boats is no fun.

I did read the posts. All I saw was the same petulant whining about the same thing that has been said over and over again. Kinda ironic for someone to tell me to "read posts before assuming stuff". If you'd read all the other LRM whine threads you would be able to realise that what you're saying is actually nothing new.

Bud.

[Impyrium]

So much lawl on this thread. The only place I see LRMs being that effective is:

A: Solo queue games where lesser-experienced players are playing
B: The rare group queue game where a team is able to effectively co-ordinate their LRM boats, ECM jammers and scouts to defeat their opponent

Those who whine about LRMs are usually peeps who haven't actually tried LRMs, nor are they able to use them as 'skill-less' as they label them. I can understand how newbies fail to find the sense in them, but that's where better tutorials and learning come in, not the traditional nerf bat.

I'm not sure I've died to LRMs hardly at all over the past few months. The few times I have, is because I deserved it. Wading out into the open without the drive to charge your enemy, or without a team willing to back you up, is suicide and deserves death.

With that said, I still think there's room for improvement, but not for the reasoning the OP puts forth. LRMs are currently very black and white due to the way they are used. They're either effective or they're not. I would like to see more player interaction, and especially expanding of the electronic warfare side of things.

But LRMs are certainly not a 'problem' for anybody that knows what they're doing. They could be expanded, but only to perhaps make them more viable, not less.

[Mystere]

James DeGriz, on 15 November 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

I did read the posts. All I saw was the same petulant whining about the same thing that has been said over and over again. Kinda ironic for someone to tell me to "read posts before assuming stuff". If you'd read all the other LRM whine threads you would be able to realise that what you're saying is actually nothing new.

Bud.

Social media, and the internet in general, have made many people crave attention from strangers. They can't validate their lives any other way. It's sad really.

And of course, the other half of the equation is that those same social media, and the internet, have made many people voyeurs and lemmings.

Edited by Mystere, 15 November 2014 - 03:36 PM.