182 replies to this topic

[rageagainstthedyingofthelight]

pwnface, on 17 November 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

Best is kind of hard to determine using metrics in a team based game, but generally killing enemy mechs efficiently is the best way to win. This is kind of hard to measure though, because you could do 1500 damage and open up the CT of every mech on the enemy team but not have any kills or you could do 700 damage and get 10 kills. Both contributed greatly to your team winning, neither is really "best".

I agree completely. Its a peace I had to make with myself. Will my Awesome ever be better at damage than a Direwolf? No. But LRM's are the Paper to the DW's Rock, so when I have them, DW's get it first.

You scan the battlefield and find the way to victory. As a Kuritan, I'm sure there's some Sun Tzu whatnot I should be quoting here, maybe, "A victor figures out how to win, then goes and fight" ( I know, brutalized that quote, but you get the point).

[Bishop Steiner]

rageagainstthedyingofthelight, on 17 November 2014 - 03:05 PM, said:

So what is the standard of who is best? If you can complete those objectives and still win, doesn't that make you a good pilot? Because only team wins counted, regardless of personal score, so what is the standard here?

What is best? Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women.



See how we're different? I go after your argument, you go after me. And with bad Metallica references no less.

My point was already well made throughout the length of this thread. You are the one who went after me, I responded with the respect I felt your posts merit.

Plain and simple. Don't like it? Can't say I care.

Oh, and quoting Conan the Barbarian is so much more highbrow than paraphrasing MEtallica. GG, close.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 17 November 2014 - 03:15 PM.

[Eboli]

pwnface, on 17 November 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

Thanks

I think I dropped with you and your Dragon last night pwnface on River City pwnface. We immediately went down 3-0 because of AFKs but clawed back the game with you taking position in your DRG-1N in upper city (left side). You did very well by memory and I got a few kills in as well - 5 and 4 I think.

I was in my Oxide.

It was a great example of a comeback

Cheers!
Eboli

[rageagainstthedyingofthelight]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 November 2014 - 03:14 PM, said:

I responded with the respect I felt your posts merit.

Plain and simple. Don't like it? Can't say I care.

I wonder if you really see it? I followed you on twitter for a while and it was the same thing, you really think you deserve the respect and deference of other players. I'm not sure why, because you have 19k posts? That doesn't mean you had good things to say, just a lot of things to say.

Truth is, no matter how much respect you have for what I say, I have as much right to say it as you.

[Bishop Steiner]

Eboli, on 17 November 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

I think I dropped with you and your Dragon last night pwnface on River City pwnface. We immediately went down 3-0 because of AFKs but clawed back the game with you taking position in your DRG-1N in upper city (left side). You did very well by memory and I got a few kills in as well - 5 and 4 I think.

I was in my Oxide.

It was a great example of a comeback

Cheers!
Eboli

I saw a couple of NASTY Oxide and Huginn teams out there this weekend..or maybe it was the same one. Anyhow, those 2 dropping srm4 "machine gun dakka volleys" into DW backs was just sick and wrong, lol.

rageagainstthedyingofthelight, on 17 November 2014 - 03:19 PM, said:

I wonder if you really see it? I followed you on twitter for a while and it was the same thing, you really think you deserve the respect and deference of other players. I'm not sure why, because you have 19k posts? That doesn't mean you had good things to say, just a lot of things to say.

Truth is, no matter how much respect you have for what I say, I have as much right to say it as you.

Actually, I don't think I deserve anyone's respect, and don't care. Pretty simple. My arguments speak for themselves. Some will agree, some will disagree, and some will act like Dbags. Since you have contributed nothing to this thread, I'll show you more respect than you show people and simply tell you, I'm just going to ignore your posts, until and unless you actually contribute something other than justifications over your bruised epeen.

[pwnface]

Yep, I distinctly remember dying to a Huggin SRM volley but to be fair I was a sneeze away from death when the Huggin found me. I don't remember who the pilot was, but good job wherever you are!

[rageagainstthedyingofthelight]

Which takes more skill, to ignore the rules and play the way you normally do, or to modify your play style to accomplish an objective you wouldn't normally accomplish?

[pwnface]

rageagainstthedyingofthelight, on 17 November 2014 - 04:11 PM, said:

Which takes more skill, to ignore the rules and play the way you normally do, or to modify your play style to accomplish an objective you wouldn't normally accomplish?

The issue is the objective you are trying to accomplish (assists + high damage) is directly opposing what you would normally want to accomplish (killing mechs effectively).

Quick analogy, you are a professional fighter and you enter a tournament where punching people in the leg rewards you points. Now, if you are able to land 100 punches to someones leg does it make you a better fighter than someone who can knock out another fighter with 1 punch to the face? You may certainly be the better leg puncher, but it doesn't necessarily mean you are the better fighter. It doesn't necessarily mean you are the worse fighter either though, a fighter who can punch someone in the leg 100 times is probably pretty good at fighting in general.

Edited by pwnface, 17 November 2014 - 04:19 PM.

[rageagainstthedyingofthelight]

Pwnface, I think we both agree, at least I agree with your point.

When I first logged in to the tourney and saw Atomic's score, I knew I wouldn't beat it, especially since I was going to be gone all day Saturday and half the day Sunday, but Friday night I got a few in and then people were messaging me like, "saw you on the boards, hope you do well", so I figured I'd give it a shot, and ended up staying on the board. I don't think I'm the 14th best Kurita pilot (I think I'm the best, of course), but I think I did better than hundreds of others who were also playing this weekend. I played the game better against the people that played.

The OP here is like "you suck if you think you're a good pilot just because you completed an objective that required you to pilot well and because I totally wasn't trying and you're a tryhard if you did" which is a bad argument on its merit, which is what I was pointing out. After all, I'm just one pilot in a fun/casual guild, what do I know?

[Vaderman]

I got into the 40's and stopped. All the broken down glaring red mechs that people didn't want to finish off was pissing me off.

I mean seriously, make a kill and an assist the same value. How hard is that to grasp.

[pwnface]

rageagainstthedyingofthelight, on 17 November 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

Pwnface, I think we both agree, at least I agree with your point.

When I first logged in to the tourney and saw Atomic's score, I knew I wouldn't beat it, especially since I was going to be gone all day Saturday and half the day Sunday, but Friday night I got a few in and then people were messaging me like, "saw you on the boards, hope you do well", so I figured I'd give it a shot, and ended up staying on the board. I don't think I'm the 14th best Kurita pilot (I think I'm the best, of course), but I think I did better than hundreds of others who were also playing this weekend. I played the game better against the people that played.

The OP here is like "you suck if you think you're a good pilot just because you completed an objective that required you to pilot well and because I totally wasn't trying and you're a tryhard if you did" which is a bad argument on its merit, which is what I was pointing out. After all, I'm just one pilot in a fun/casual guild, what do I know?

I think what Bishop Steiner was trying to say is, players that did well in this challenge shouldn't brag about being good at the game. From what I've read, I don't think he's bashing players who were chasing the leaderboard but rather saying this tournament wasn't a good indicator for true piloting ability. I'm sure he was much more abrasive, but the general points still stand. In any case, good players generally don't need validation from other players or a leaderboard. I know a lot of pilots who would have easily cracked top 15 in their faction if they actually cared about winning a tourney with poor scoring.

[Zordicron]

I really enjoyed the weekend play, people were actually normal for once. I didnt give a rip about the scoreboard, but I did want the 130 score for sweet sweet c-bills.

Frankly, I could give a flying **** about the people gaming the system, as EPEEN warriors are the least of my concerns when it is time for Stompy Robot smash.

Really now, does this actually bother some one? Are some of us butthurt we didn't score as well as some one else? "ONOZ gaming the systemz!!" I would care I guess if the gaming of said system was some how detrimental to the overall game experience, but in reality I didnt see a single player trying to NOT GET kills, I didnt notice anything stupid over this weekend, compared to the kill steal/shoot me in the back/blood rage nonsense of past challenges.

the score formula might need a small tweak, but it was put there as much to be a metric for the c-bill reward as it was for the leaderboards. As such, it did it's job well IMO, no one particular thing was rewarded so highly as to encourage stupid acts of selfishness. "Farming assists" I suppose, but then, you need to win, so it is not like you could laser spray all 12 foes in a 12 JJ spider and then run out of bounds and DC to farm points for the leaderboard= better to fight it out and secure the win also.

making assist worth enough that killsteals werent the end all and making the win count: created a weekend even better then anything outside of the halloween goodie fest IMO. In the small time I got to play, every match was decent, and I only saw 3 derpwad players (one raven that ran out of bounds, and a trollmando that lost it's weapons so it ran to the corner and powered down and DC'd) and even that stuff is "par for the course" during non event play.

[pwnface]

Going to have to disagree, making assists worth more than kills was a huge mistake and Russ has said as much. It is a big problem when your ideal match is 0 kills 12 assists.

[Eboli]

Ok, so it appears that this has been beaten to death with various arguments and their counters.

What formula do we think would make a more fair tournament? Let's try to come up with a solution - even though completely unlikely that PGI would listen see anyhow...

Formula used was: (Kills × 10) + (Kill Assist × 20) + ((Damage Done - Team Damage) ÷ 15) + (Wins × 20)

How about: (Kills × 20) + (Kill Assist × 15) + ((Damage Done - Team Damage) ÷ 15). +20 points for a win / +10 points for a draw. +5 points per solo kill. No TAG or Narc bonuses - just consider it part of team play in order to assist with a win.

I still think that Kills should be of more value than an Assist but also aware that if there is too much difference in points team and game play starts to go downhill.

I like the idea of additional points for Solo kills (+5) but maybe this will cause too many problems of Rambo like behaviour. Then again such behaviour may not get too many kills/assists thus eliminating the problem anyhow, unless the player is good and then deserves the extra points. This gives lights a chance for a few extra points vs the general killing power of heavy assault mechs.

Cannot do much about LRMs in current format so it just has to remain as it is.

I like the idea of Team damage because it may stop players from team killing/legging in order to stop someone from getting the kill they "need".

Just my 2c worth

Eboli.

[pwnface]

Kills worth 5pts more than assists sounds reasonable to me although many feel they should be the same. 5pts is only 75dmg, this makes getting killshots less important than getting decent damage.

[Eboli]

pwnface, on 17 November 2014 - 06:08 PM, said:

Kills worth 5pts more than assists sounds reasonable to me although many feel they should be the same. 5pts is only 75dmg, this makes getting killshots less important than getting decent damage.

Yes, good point. What this promotes is that a solo kill, although adding a little bit extra reward, is not that high as if a player was to get higher damage while likely playing in a team/group. Just trying to find a balance that creates no crazy behaviour but reward if performed.

It would also be nice if your score will count whether your team wins or loses. I did some very good games which could not be counted because my team lost during the tournament. I can see how some people could argue that because you lost you don't deserve such points and have no real counter to such statement apart from if you play well you should get such points recognised.

Cheers!
Eboli

[BadMF]

Mahnmut, on 15 November 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

It baffles me why PGI doesn't use the new rewards to calculate scores. Assists 10, Kill 10, Solo Kill 20, Most Damage 10 etc.

Totally agree - pretty much what I said in another forum topic. They at least target real contribution.

[Lily from animove]

Mystere, on 15 November 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

The problem is that the person who just did just 1 damage, the one that did 1 damage to kill, and the one that soloed a kill, will all be treated the same.

I think a better criteria, albeit a much harder one, is to just reward someone who did most damage and the kill. That should hopefully force people to stick to target.

incorrect, the one that did one damage and the one that did the "solo" will receive different points because the formula also includes damage done.

[Bishop Steiner]

pwnface, on 17 November 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

Going to have to disagree, making assists worth more than kills was a huge mistake and Russ has said as much. It is a big problem when your ideal match is 0 kills 12 assists.

agreed, see below example

pwnface, on 17 November 2014 - 05:05 PM, said:

I think what Bishop Steiner was trying to say is, players that did well in this challenge shouldn't brag about being good at the game. From what I've read, I don't think he's bashing players who were chasing the leaderboard but rather saying this tournament wasn't a good indicator for true piloting ability. I'm sure he was much more abrasive, but the general points still stand. In any case, good players generally don't need validation from other players or a leaderboard. I know a lot of pilots who would have easily cracked top 15 in their faction if they actually cared about winning a tourney with poor scoring.

And yeah, I may be a little salty on this, though I must say, I think I stayed largely unsalted until a few people showed up with their epeens in a twist. Not perfectly so, as I might have been a little stronger than the PC Generation of cup stacking everyone gets a prize generation is equipped to handle (I said it was SAD, BOOHOO!!! HARSH WORDS!!!!), but yeah.

Lily from animove, on 18 November 2014 - 12:38 AM, said:

incorrect, the one that did one damage and the one that did the "solo" will receive different points because the formula also includes damage done.

divided by 15. So pretty much anything under 750 damage was a blip on the scoring meter.

12 kills, 1500 damage ? (a "perfect" match by almost any standards for a player) 240 pts.
12 Assists, 15 damage? 261 pts.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 18 November 2014 - 05:47 AM.

[rageagainstthedyingofthelight]

pwnface, on 17 November 2014 - 05:05 PM, said:

I think what Bishop Steiner was trying to say is, players that did well in this challenge shouldn't brag about being good at the game. From what I've read, I don't think he's bashing players who were chasing the leaderboard but rather saying this tournament wasn't a good indicator for true piloting ability. I'm sure he was much more abrasive, but the general points still stand. In any case, good players generally don't need validation from other players or a leaderboard. I know a lot of pilots who would have easily cracked top 15 in their faction if they actually cared about winning a tourney with poor scoring.

Yeah, I stayed out of it until he started being such a DB to every one who disagreed with him. Which is why my point still stands. A good mech pilot can take whatever metric you throw out there an tune his mech and game play to meet that metric. That's why I leave all modes on when I drop, because you play you have, not the game you want. It's why people min/max, it's why we keep score.

If this weekend they make a tournament mode that says only removing the left arm of a mech counts for a score, you can bet I'll be there making everyone a righty.