84 replies to this topic

[Tristan Winter]

First of all, I'm thrilled to see that Viridian Bog is finally giving MWO the lush, vivid, colourful enviroment that fans have been asking for since 2012. I view it as a sign that MWO is now paying more attention to what fans are asking for, combined with the fact that they know enough about CryEngine to give us stuff that they didn't know how to do before.

That being said, there's still two major issues with most of the maps in MWO and Viridian Bog looks like it has the same issue. First, there's no sense of scale. It doesn't feel like I'm piloting a huge 100 ton walker. Whether I'm on Tourmaline, Terra Therma, Alpine, HPG (especially this one!) or Canyon Network, it's very hard to get a sense of just how big my mech is.

There are some scattered cars and buildings here and there, but they are few and far between. If you're standing on any given position on the maps mentioned above, you're probably looking at a view that would be just as appropriate for a normal FPS like Halo.

The urban maps are a lot better. Frozen City, Crimson Strait, River City. Which leads us to the second issue: not feeling like you're piloting a big and powerful mechs. While these maps do give you a good sense of scale, you're still smaller than most buildings. You can't even destroy trees, traffic lights or cars, let alone skyscrapers.

Previous MW-games had several areas that gave you both the sense of scale and the sense of power that you want from a Mechwarrior game.

Spoiler

I'm really hoping that future maps will both establish a firm sense of scale, so it's always easy to see that you're actually ten or twenty meters off the ground, and also give the player a sense of power by letting him or her walk through settlements, bases and forests like a huge hulking monster, without being blocked by massive skyscrapers and vastly overgrown alien plants all the time.

I made this illustration to explain what I'm looking for.

EDIT: Updated

Edited by Tristan Winter, 22 April 2015 - 03:42 PM.

[CocoaJin]

I think a major reason why scale feels off is because even though the mechs are to scale, the internal cockpits are not.

The choice to use larger than scale cockpits was great for increasing FOV from the cockpit, but it essentially shrunk the world around it from a pilot viewing perspective. So until that scale mis-match is reconciled, there is nothing that can be easily done to fix it.

[AlexEss]

Well i agree that nature is a but out of whack... But in some ways it is a carry over from the books where nature often was mech sized for some odd reason... Most likley because the writers where used to writing from a 1,8 meters of the ground perspective. Not 14 meters.

But i feel that the new one give a even more interesting view... A sort of who hunts the hunter...

[Asmudius Heng]

They make things bigger for more cover i think which is ok - except the need some of the smaller more realistic stuff intermingled so that you do feel that sense of scale even if that bit of scenery doesnt do much for combat.

[Krivvan]

Mechs actually aren't very big. A Light mech is only about as high as a 2-3 story building. Mechs are dwarfed by apartment buildings and refineries. Trees are also very variable in size. Trees in a forest could easily be taller than the tallest mechs. I'd say that in non-residential settings, the proper size for trees should be equal to mech height, not smaller.

There are also gameplay concerns. There needs to be cover for mechs which requires large environment objects. The problem with the earlier mechwarrior games (in your screenshots in particular) is that it's essentially a big open area without any cover whatsoever. I shouldn't have to explain why this wouldn't work very well in this game.

Edited by Krivvan, 16 November 2014 - 02:21 PM.

[TexAce]

Nicolai Kabrinsky, on 16 November 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

First of all, I'm thrilled to see that Viridian Bog

see what? What are you talking about?

[Krivvan]

TexAss, on 16 November 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

see what? What are you talking about?

[Tristan Winter]

Krivvan, on 16 November 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

Mechs actually aren't very big. A Light mech is only about as high as a 2-3 story building. Mechs are dwarfed by apartment buildings and refineries. Trees are also very variable in size. Trees in a forest could easily be taller than the tallest mechs. I'd say that in non-residential settings, the proper size for trees should be equal to mech height, not smaller.

It's pretty easy to make a mech feel big, even if it's "only as high as a 2-3 story building". Whether it's a gas station for fuel trucks, a farmland with tractors, bridges, combine harvesters and tiny fences to keep the cattle in, or a desert train depot with lots of parked trains, trucks and other vehicles, it's easy to imagine many surroundings that would make the mechs big by comparison.

A lot of the buildings in MWO have external walkways and platforms that create a sense of scale. That's good. You can even create a mech factory that makes the mech look big, just by adding enough stuff that gives a sense of scale.

Krivvan, on 16 November 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

There are also gameplay concerns. There needs to be cover for mechs which requires large environment objects. The problem with the earlier mechwarrior games (in your screenshots in particular) is that it's essentially a big open area without any cover whatsoever. I shouldn't have to explain why this wouldn't work very well in this game.

And I shouldn't have to explain that I'm not asking for maps without cover. It's perfectly possible to create hills, canyons, bridges, etc, that give the mechs necessary cover, while keeping trees and buildings small.

I'm not asking PGI to change the landscape on maps like Alpine, Canyon Network or Tourmaline. I'm just asking them to include objects, plants and infrastructure that illustrate the size of the mechs.

Edited by Tristan Winter, 06 April 2015 - 03:08 PM.

[Zyllos]

I think the problem here is that we have not had urban or natural maps that the majority of the elements are smaller than the mechs.

One thing this presents in making these types of maps is that the only blocking LOS/cover is basically the ground. This might be considered a "high risk" to map developers because of the "uninteresting" nature of a map that is basically is a "flat" map.

[Kiiyor]

I think they should be using effects to help with the scale. Smoke, Debris, that sort of thing.

It's also hard to get an appreciation of scale when so much of the environment is static. The human brain uses things like trees swaying in the breeze etc. to help make sense of the increased height and scale of your viewpoint. Without it, it fills in the blanks and conceptualizes your point of view with something it is comfortable with, which is you walking to Star Bucks for a latte, instead of you stomping on Star Bucks with your giant robot and vaporizing handfuls of hipsters with your lasers.

Dust clouds and explosions behave very differently at different scales. The slower they move, the bigger the scale.

I know this sort of thing is heavily limited by the engine, and traditionally these sorts of effects are very expensive, but imagine if firing an AC20 kicked up a huge cloud of dust (like it should)





Imagine if a mech toppling over produced a proper debris cloud. Imagine if weapon and missile impacts temporarily obscured what you were looking at. Imagine if mechs walking produced the dust that 100 tonnes of anything striking the ground would produce.

I know it's a virtual impossibility with our current engine, but still, a guy can dream.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Asmudius Heng, on 16 November 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

They make things bigger for more cover i think which is ok - except the need some of the smaller more realistic stuff intermingled so that you do feel that sense of scale even if that bit of scenery doesnt do much for combat.

This is the real problem. Maps are mech sized, not real sized. I mean I used to be big into mountaineering and backpacking and the type of terrain we see common in MWO isn't that common. In most realistic terrain, a 15m tall robot would find itself standing at least chest and shoulders above anything around it.

Actually just look at MM:LL if you want proper scale. The map there all look like real terrain features.

[Aresye]

The mechs in BT/MW aren't giant, skyscraper tall gundams. I think the average was somewhere around 3 stories IIRC.

I feel an opposite sense of scale when playing in MWO, especially on maps like Crimson Strait and River City. I feel like I'm in TOO BIG of a machine.

I'd really like to see maps created that really give a sense of depth and parallax, because even the largest maps like Alpine and Terra Therma still feel small and claustrophobic. For example, you stand on top of the tallest mountain on Alpine and you really don't feel like you're all that high.

I think it's a combination of a different FOV and larger maps, but MWLL just had such a grander scale of things. You actually felt like you were exploring the maps as much as you were fighting the other team, and I don't mean that in a bad way like wandering around aimlessly like on Alpine. The graphics weren't as sharp as MWO, but MWLL really immersed you into the environment.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Aresye, on 16 November 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

The mechs in BT/MW aren't giant, skyscraper tall gundams. I think the average was somewhere around 3 stories IIRC.

I feel an opposite sense of scale when playing in MWO, especially on maps like Crimson Strait and River City. I feel like I'm in TOO BIG of a machine.

I'd really like to see maps created that really give a sense of depth and parallax, because even the largest maps like Alpine and Terra Therma still feel small and claustrophobic. For example, you stand on top of the tallest mountain on Alpine and you really don't feel like you're all that high.

I think it's a combination of a different FOV and larger maps, but MWLL just had such a grander scale of things. You actually felt like you were exploring the maps as much as you were fighting the other team, and I don't mean that in a bad way like wandering around aimlessly like on Alpine. The graphics weren't as sharp as MWO, but MWLL really immersed you into the environment.

Yeah just went back to look at more videos of MW:LL and every time I do so, I wish MWO looked and felt like the gameplay I see in those video. I mean there is 1000% more depth to that game, maps are huge and immerse, the battles look like how I envision battles and this is despite the much worse graphics overall. I like MWO but man PGI really missed the boat. Every time I think that this game could have been MM:LL only with better graphics, I can't help by feel disappointed.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 16 November 2014 - 03:45 PM.

[Tristan Winter]

Aresye, on 16 November 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

The mechs in BT/MW aren't giant, skyscraper tall gundams.

I have to read the OP again but I'm pretty sure I didn't imply that mechs are giant, skyscraper tall gundams.

I believe I even showed some screenshots from MW3 and MW4 to illustrate what I'm looking for.

I could be mistaken though. Let's both read the OP again and have a look, deal?

Kiiyor, on 16 November 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

Imagine if a mech toppling over produced a proper debris cloud.

I know it's a virtual impossibility with our current engine, but still, a guy can dream.

Well, it does produce a cloud right now, at least on some maps. But the cloud is gone in 0.1 seconds, so it looks more like you dropped a bun on a table covered by flour, or dropped your cat on a snow-covered lawn.

Other than that, I agree with you. It's a shame they toned down the smoke from jump jets too. This game just needs more smoke, dust, debris and fire in general.

Edited by Tristan Winter, 06 April 2015 - 03:09 PM.

[Viges]

Krivvan, on 16 November 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

Mechs actually aren't very big

Indeed.
http://bg.battletech...s-and-vehicles/

I can't see the problem, do you want some kind of a world where everything is tiny or smth OP to feel bigger?..

[luxebo]

I'm glad that we even have such a sweet map in the first place, with green for once. Scale can be fixed anyway later (or not, but even then just be glad with what we have.)

[Viges]

Nicolai Kabrinsky, on 16 November 2014 - 03:51 PM, said:

This game just needs more smoke, dust, debris and fire in general.

And we need computers that run at 10GHz...

[aniviron]

Asmudius Heng, on 16 November 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

They make things bigger for more cover i think which is ok - except the need some of the smaller more realistic stuff intermingled so that you do feel that sense of scale even if that bit of scenery doesnt do much for combat.

This is the ideal solution I think, so long as we can avoid having tons of objects that are just going to block movement, which is sort of how rocks function now.

[Tennex]

after seeing somebody add MWO mechs into crysis. i'm convinced the trees at least, are supposed to be taller than mechs.

[Tennex]

Someone dropped the MWO mechs into cryengine and shows that trees are larger than mechs. So atleast in that regard MWO has the trees correctly sized for the most part. Although i wouldnt mind more smaller trees.
http://imgur.com/a/bvxiD#0











I feel like MW4 did a really great job with tents and stuff.. MWO could use a healthy smattering of small objects here and there to remind us of the scale.

Edited by Tennex, 16 November 2014 - 04:31 PM.