114 replies to this topic

[KraftySOT]

And you can easily undermine LRM boating in the TT with a bunch of Red Caps or Savanah Masters.

That munchkin with his LRM boats better scramble to disallow charging with hover vehicles.

[Joseph Mallan]

KraftySOT, on 17 November 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

But that Lyran Archer guy I can actually avoid. He and I wont ever be in the same game. He'll say, ok im bringing my Archers.

No worries man, lets play on a single map sheet.

No.

Why not dude?

Because then I wont win.

Ah I see. Well im gonna go play with that guy over there who wants to play with Rifleman and Commandos.

Thats the difference. I cant choose to level the playing field, and then not play, if the other guy refuses to have a level playing field.

If I do that here. It means im not logging in at all. Im playing Megamek. How is that good for MWO?

Id play him on 2 Maps and mop the floor with him. 2 Jungle Maps! No LoS if there is more than 4 hexes of Woods. One Map and you are In range from the start almost.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 November 2014 - 10:19 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Prezimonto, on 17 November 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

The point is standing in the open is bad for your mech's health due to ALL the direct fire weapons as well as LRM's.

I do understand what you're getting at, but outside of a complete rework of the entire LRM mechanic and/or a complete rework of maps to include better cover and promote more short range in-fighting, there's not a whole lot to do about the situation. While at the same time there are lots of ways to mitigate the effect LRM's can have on your mech and your team.

But what I think gets people is when they have that moment where its them and an enemy mech, in the open, without the rest of either team there...and people think THIS IS IT!! THIS IS WHAT IVE BEEN WAITING FOR!!

Then the stream of LRMs come in, shaking, blinding, and ruining your enjoyable dancing with your partner.

Thats the point of disconnect I believe. Thats when the player comes into the forums and makes an LRM post. When his expectations were shattered. He expected a duel and got a rain cloud. Its like expecting to be able to dance at a dancehall and being swept off the floor the moment you got out there to shake your money maker. Its not what you expected, so you get frustrated (even irrationally so)

Thats bad for the venue.

And yeah I dont think its going to change, and I dont know how to change it, but thats whats irking people. When their expectations and reality part ways.

[lshtaria]

Before you make your movements and take up your positioning, always make sure you have a route of escape or effective cover. While the teams are still at distance but starting to close in, I try to bait the boats into wasting ammo on me and my radar derp.

I never go chasing lights blindly, I never try to get caught brawling out in the open or in a 1v1 situation where I will get focused. The majority of the time I'm fine although there is the occasional time where LRM heavy teams will get the better of me.

But how do you deal with that? You can't. Nerf LRMs... in what way? Any nerfs to what they are now and you might as well throw popcorn at the other mechs.

LRMs aren't perfect. I still think they could do with a shave off of their speed and a tiny amount off the screen shake and explosion size. Not a nerf, just a small tweak.

Otherwise it's as the OP says really. If I get blasted by LRMs, it's my fault.

[PappySmurf]

Here is the true problem MR.OP

The true problem for the pug/solo/group MM queues is a lack of individual targeting.When a player can target a enemy and 2-10 LRM boats or just missile mechs open fire the enemy player usually dies quite fast.As a player gains more skill this death percentage does go down but it still does not fix the LRM or any weapon spam in this game.

Switching MWO to a individual targeting system for each player where the OP {R} button only works when a command mech like a Atlas-DDC or a scout mech with a group targeting module in the game would eliminate not only massive missile spam but also a lot of the focus fire which would help new players until more skill has been learned.

PGI unfortunately will not listen to anyone that has ideas that make sense on any level for 3 years I have seem MWO go from a hopeful mech game to a flawed and boring FPS in mech skins.So don't get up your hopes on a fix unless its a new nerf which just ruins the game even more.

And unfortunately PGI and most players cannot understand how boring MWO has become for competitive players and how futile it has become for new players trying to make MWO there main gamming venue.

[Josef Nader]

Mallan's right. One map sheet isn't good for you either. As long as the LRM player spread his forces around and relied on something fast like a Sprint, chances are that you're going to lose one mech every round. As long as the boats were spread out, they could fire at the targets engaging each other and completely obliterate anything you were fighting.

Single map sheet wouldn't save you, and neither will macho posturing. Bad tactics are bad tactics.

[Ultimax]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

Thats only 150 Missiles. Read about this guy, and those who applaud his tactics!

I read that, can you tell me what this part means?

"Good tactic. Works best if you have NARC launchers or a TAG and Semi Guided LRMS, though."

Is there a difference between LRMs and semi-guided LRMs?




Also, not coincidentally, there is this:


"Some people playing against me no doubt do get bored of me using the tactic but I am trying to grow a player base in Winnipeg so players can start playing different people and not just me. I could also paint up my nine unseen Phoenix Hawks and start using my aggressive recon lances."


So apparently, it's not just MWO's playerbase that has many people bored when the game degenerates into a stale, stagnant hill hump fest where no one is allowed to leave cover unless you have a clear, direct and safe route to the enemy.


On top of that, I wonder how many people playing TT BT would enjoy it if while their forces were being LRMd the opposing player just shined a strobe light into their face and 2 other guys just shook his chair wildly when it was his turn to fire back.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 17 November 2014 - 10:30 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

Id play him on 2 Maps and mop the floor with him. 2 Jungle Maps! No LoS if there is more than 4 hexes of Woods. One Map and you are In range from the start almost.

That too. But to lulz him id take just a plain mapsheet with a couple roughs and just get in his face in a single turn. Win or lose his strategy is pretty much undermined.

And theres a plethora of ways to do it.

You just dont get that option here. Were stuck with little customization on our own for balance and enjoyment, and there isnt much to choose from anyways, so you very quickly with ALOT of players, get a "Meta" and the cheese rises quickly to forefront.

For people coming in, even older players coming back, or heck even long time players like myself, you have an expectation I believe of what "the fun" is, and usually its shooting mechs. When you get LRMed by 4 people from behind hills with streams of LRM5s when all you want to do is shoot the mech infront of you, theres few positive ways to handle it. You can mount ECM, which pisses off the magic jesus box crowd, you can log off, you can complain in the forums, you can sit under cover, you can take mechs which you may not really want to take out, or ... really the only positive option...suck it up.

Sucking it up is great advice for life. Not so much for an entertainment product.

If I had the options I had outside the system itself here, as I had in Btech...there would never be an issue...ever.

Ive never been munchkined in the TT because its easy to see coming from a mile away and I have the control over how a game is played because its an agreement between two people.

Here its a third party dictating just about everything, and I think many people dont think theyre dictating the LRMs the correct way.

It also bugs me that theyre in EVERYSINGLE PUG game...but I havent seen them in Group in forever.

Its just my "expectation" but id like them to be marginally useful is both queues, at the same time.

Instead of feast or famine...LRMs should be a constant nibble.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ultimatum X, on 17 November 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

I read that, can you tell me what this part means?

"Good tactic. Works best if you have NARC launchers or a TAG and Semi Guided LRMS, though."

Is there a difference between LRMs and semi-guided LRMs?

Semi-Guided LRMs (I had to look it up as I am not used to that term myself.

Quote

Arguably the most innovative result of the Free Worlds League's 3050s specialty LRM munitions research efforts, the Semi-Guided LRM debuted in 3057 just in time for Operation Guerrero. Working with the Artemis IV FCS compatible missiles as a base, League scientists developed a smaller LRM-sized version of the laser-homing technology of the guided Arrow IV missile. This allows Semi-Guided LRM flights to home in on a target "painted" by a friendly unit equipped with Target Acquisition Gear (TAG), enhancing their accuracy.

[Zerberus]

^^ Quite possibly the only useful thing the Space Vikings ever created, aside from Galactic Odin and Space Mead

[Ultimax]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

Semi-Guided LRMs (I had to look it up as I am not used to that term myself.

I added some more to that post, if you have time to go back and re-read.


It would appear that our LRMs are auto-homing without even needing a target to be painted and this is technology from 7 years out of our timeline?

Is that correct?

[Joseph Mallan]

KraftySOT, on 17 November 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

That too. But to lulz him id take just a plain mapsheet with a couple roughs and just get in his face in a single turn. Win or lose his strategy is pretty much undermined.

And theres a plethora of ways to do it.

You just dont get that option here. Were stuck with little customization on our own for balance and enjoyment, and there isnt much to choose from anyways, so you very quickly with ALOT of players, get a "Meta" and the cheese rises quickly to forefront.

For people coming in, even older players coming back, or heck even long time players like myself, you have an expectation I believe of what "the fun" is, and usually its shooting mechs. When you get LRMed by 4 people from behind hills with streams of LRM5s when all you want to do is shoot the mech infront of you, theres few positive ways to handle it. You can mount ECM, which pisses off the magic jesus box crowd, you can log off, you can complain in the forums, you can sit under cover, you can take mechs which you may not really want to take out, or ... really the only positive option...suck it up.

Sucking it up is great advice for life. Not so much for an entertainment product.

If I had the options I had outside the system itself here, as I had in Btech...there would never be an issue...ever.

Ive never been munchkined in the TT because its easy to see coming from a mile away and I have the control over how a game is played because its an agreement between two people.

Here its a third party dictating just about everything, and I think many people dont think theyre dictating the LRMs the correct way.

It also bugs me that theyre in EVERYSINGLE PUG game...but I havent seen them in Group in forever.

Its just my "expectation" but id like them to be marginally useful is both queues, at the same time.

Instead of feast or famine...LRMs should be a constant nibble.

You did notice he knows the weakness of his Preferred Fire Support and looks to have lots of intervening terrain to slow enemy movements. In all my years of gaming, You will find a counter tactic for just about any tactic used. Its a never ending game of one upsmanship!

[Catra Lanis]

Someone asked why getting LRM:ed was worse than getting PPC:ed or Gauss:ed. The difference, at least in PUG-land is that 4 or 6 gauss don't hit you like a rifle on full auto within 6 seconds.

Oh btw which mech as the most missile hardpoints? I want to try out the whaw, wham, wham flashbang build myself.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ultimatum X, on 17 November 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

I added some more to that post, if you have time to go back and re-read.


It would appear that our LRMs are auto-homing without even needing a target to be painted and this is technology from 7 years out of our timeline?

Is that correct?

It does look that way. Then again Our ECM and Targeting computers seem to be have extra abilities as well, so is not out of line with how PGI does some things.

[KraftySOT]

Josef Nader, on 17 November 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

Mallan's right. One map sheet isn't good for you either. As long as the LRM player spread his forces around and relied on something fast like a Sprint, chances are that you're going to lose one mech every round. As long as the boats were spread out, they could fire at the targets engaging each other and completely obliterate anything you were fighting.

Single map sheet wouldn't save you, and neither will macho posturing. Bad tactics are bad tactics.

He had archers, which arent terribly fast.

Also a single map sheet puts you in min range in two turns. Theres no where to hide, which is why the LRM strategy he has works. Narc and tag have To-Hits, and frankly he wont land enough to stop a rush of similar BV locusts, red caps, savannah masters, etc, which all would hiliariously beat him infront of his munchkin peers.

[Choppah]

Fut, on 17 November 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

Here's a tip - if you're hiding in cover and have no sight line to anything but your cover, you're doing it wrong.

One way to help with avoiding LRMs is to actually look up into the sky and watch the stream of missiles coming towards you. This will help you determine which direction to move to best avoid them (or how to move to make them impact near by objects).

Seriously, cowering in fear with you head in the sand is always a horrible idea.

Did you think I meant getting hit from the side of the cover? I meant the high angle LRMs actually defeating cover by going over it and striking the top of the mech (sometimes the angle is so high you take damage to rear armor ). I know full well to look where they are launching from.

Example, starting from the F3 spawn and going up the 5 line of Canyon Network, and LRMs are being launched from the 3 line. The "steps" of the ridge at the 4 line provide no cover. The only other cover is the rock pillars on the ridge. Except they aren't, positioning your mech against a pillar opposite from where the LRMs are coming from will block only a few LRMs, the top of your mech will still be struck. So if you are narced and there are multiple LRM boats firing from different directions... hope that you aren't an assault or slowish heavy. A medium or light could escape by going back to the bridge near base, or by being on the "step" opposite the 4 line which has much better cover.

All said and done, trying to explain this to a new player is a no go. I mean how would you put into words that "cover isn't cover and there is nothing you can do against LRMs except to hide or be a fast mech", in way that kept them playing the game? Really good WOT players actually have every arty safe spot on every map memorized and even know which SPGs fire at what angle. Does that sound fun? There are multiple reasons why I don't play WOT anymore, unfun indirect fire mechanics is in the top 3. While there are counters to LRMs, I would rather the indirect fire mechanic be fun and not some campfest because you are being hit by an enemy you can't shoot back at.

Edited by Choppah, 17 November 2014 - 10:41 AM.

[Fut]

Catra Lanis, on 17 November 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Someone asked why getting LRM:ed was worse than getting PPC:ed or Gauss:ed. The difference, at least in PUG-land is that 4 or 6 gauss don't hit you like a rifle on full auto within 6 seconds.

Yeah, but 2 Gauss hitting the same location can take out my CDA or HBK instantly.
Don't know about you, but I'd rather have the chance to run and twist myself to safety.

[MoonfireSpam]

People hate LRMs because they ruin fights.

It's not even due to a crack shot or quick response like direct fire weapons, it's because some guy is just standing 500m behind the rest of his team waiting for red to appear then proceeds to mash face into keyboard.

Basically people spend upwards or 5 minutes doing the rotating right / taking potshots thing, and eventually when stuff gets real, face gets filled by streams of LRM.

[Josef Nader]

KraftySOT, on 17 November 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

He had archers, which arent terribly fast.

Also a single map sheet puts you in min range in two turns. Theres no where to hide, which is why the LRM strategy he has works. Narc and tag have To-Hits, and frankly he wont land enough to stop a rush of similar BV locusts, red caps, savannah masters, etc, which all would hiliariously beat him infront of his munchkin peers.

As long as those Archers are spaced in groups more than 7 hexes apart, you're in for an uphill fight. Besides, a single LRM 20 that scores a single decent hit will instantly kill a Savannah Master, and it will cripple a locust, AND those Archers are packing a battery of medium lasers, in addition to a sweet array of kung-fu punches and kicks and some very respectable armor. Your Locusts/Savannah Masters would be lunch.

MoonfireSpam, on 17 November 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

People hate LRMs because they ruin fights.

It's not even due to a crack shot or quick response like direct fire weapons, it's because some guy is just standing 500m behind the rest of his team waiting for red to appear then proceeds to mash face into keyboard.

Basically people spend upwards or 5 minutes doing the rotating right / taking potshots thing, and eventually when stuff gets real, face gets filled by streams of LRM.

The gauss rifle and PPC effects are a bit harder to see, so I don't blame you for not noticing, but they're the ones that actually kill you from a distance, not the LRMs. Besides, hitting a battlemech moving through the open while you're standing still, unpressured, and behind cover is not a "crack shot". That is clicking on a particularly troublesome desktop icon.

Edited by Josef Nader, 17 November 2014 - 10:43 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

MoonfireSpam, on 17 November 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

People hate LRMs because they ruin fights.

It's not even due to a crack shot or quick response like direct fire weapons, it's because some guy is just standing 500m behind the rest of his team waiting for red to appear then proceeds to mash face into keyboard.

Basically people spend upwards or 5 minutes doing the rotating right / taking potshots thing, and eventually when stuff gets real, face gets filled by streams of LRM.

Sir that is LRMs working as intended... or at least one of the intents of them.