114 replies to this topic

[KraftySOT]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

You did notice he knows the weakness of his Preferred Fire Support and looks to have lots of intervening terrain to slow enemy movements. In all my years of gaming, You will find a counter tactic for just about any tactic used. Its a never ending game of one upsmanship!

Which is precisely the problem here.

There is no AH HA! to the LRM "problem" in MWO. Theres sit. Or magic jesus box.

Theres no, well then I want to fight you in open terrain, I want to bring vtols, hover aps and anti mech infantry. Theres no BV to play around with and a way to discover and defeat that strategy. At least not as a single person. You have to coordinate with a unit of players. Thats fine for the group, which is why you dont see the LRMaggedon in Group. But that by default makes it nigh impossible to counter ENJOYABLY (yes you can reliably shut down that tactic yourself, but your stuck with your teams ability to do the same, or not)

Thats the thing. How do you ENJOYABLY counter LRMs.

I dont think theres an answer to that question you could provide. There are plenty of reliable ways...but no enjoyable ways.

However in Btech, theres a plethora of enjoyable ways to defeat munchkins, and usually when you discover them and present them, the munchkin cowers in fear. Which is enjoyable in and of itself.

Josef Nader, on 17 November 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

As long as those Archers are spaced in groups more than 7 hexes apart, you're in for an uphill fight. Besides, a single LRM 20 that scores a single decent hit will instantly kill a Savannah Master, and it will cripple a locust, AND those Archers are packing a battery of medium lasers, in addition to a sweet array of kung-fu punches and kicks and some very respectable armor. Your Locusts/Savannah Masters would be lunch.

Oh no, that makes it worse. 10 Savannah Masters will reduce any single mech to scrap in a single turn. Not clogging up the hexes around the Archers, IE staying in a tight ball (which he says is his strategy against people rushing him, which is correct) is a bad move.

Then I can put that many more things in your rear arc. The To-Hit after max movement for the Narc and Tag, will be in the 10-11 range. Which means the LRM fire wll almost always be in the same range. You wont land enough hits before you start losing Archers, which each are a serious blow to firepower, if you lose them, and if you lose your spotters, and he says he likes to use infantry, all your effectiveness disapears pretty fast.

[Fut]

KraftySOT, on 17 November 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

Which is precisely the problem here.

There is no AH HA! to the LRM "problem" in MWO. Theres sit. Or magic jesus box.

False.

KraftySOT, on 17 November 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

Thats the thing. How do you ENJOYABLY counter LRMs.

I dont think theres an answer to that question you could provide. There are plenty of reliable ways...but no enjoyable ways.

Completely subjective.
I actually enjoy taking out LRM Boats in my CDAs. Rush up on them quick and they don't know what the **** to do.
The trick is finding the right avenue to get yourself to your target. Sometimes it takes patience and careful planning, you can't just charge straight at them and expect things to go well - but this is all part of the fun.

[Joseph Mallan]

KraftySOT, on 17 November 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

He had archers, which arent terribly fast.

Also a single map sheet puts you in min range in two turns. Theres no where to hide, which is why the LRM strategy he has works. Narc and tag have To-Hits, and frankly he wont land enough to stop a rush of similar BV locusts, red caps, savannah masters, etc, which all would hiliariously beat him infront of his munchkin peers.

Did you miss the secondary Weapons...

Quote

ARC-5W
The 5W is an upgrade of the 2W variant, produced at Alarion in an orbital 'Mech repair facility which was expanded into a Mech assembly line. The 'Mech has been upgraded with an XL Engine to save weight and the 'Mech uses double heat sinks for greater heat dissipation. The 'Mech is armed with two LRM-20 and two SRM-4 launchers and carries a Narc Missile Beacon to allow it to designate 'Mechs for targeting by friendly units with missile launchers. BV (1.0) = 1,128

Also a Swarm of Savanna Masters would be knocked out by some well placed FASCAM LRM salvos.

[KraftySOT]

"[color=#000000]11. Keep your missile boats together. They will need to support each other when enemies come close and be able to concentrate their short-range firepower on targets. Remember that LRM boats individually have less short-range capability so they need to combine their fire even in the close battle."

He has 6000 BV of Archers.

A Savanah Master is 160 BV.

A single map sheet with no stacking rules...I wouldnt actually be able to place them all.[/color]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Did you miss the secondary Weapons...
Also a Swarm of Savanna Masters would be knocked out by some well placed FASCAM LRM salvos.

He can only shoot at 5 of them a turn however.

I have almost 40 of them at 6000 bv. I could take 30, apcs, infantry, a few Yellow Jacket Vtols and still be under BV.

Well 5x2 on each mech, you wont be doing a secondary target against things moving their max movement, the +1 isnt worth it. So each Archer can only shoot at one savanah master a turn.

And im just using Archetypes...there are better options than Locusts or Savanah masters, those are just my go-tos for explination because I remember all their stats.

[Josef Nader]

I've fought plenty of folks rushing Savannah Masters. More often than not, they tend to be a self correcting problem, skidding wildly out of control and slamming into any and all obstacles on the field.

And sure, a 10 to-hit isn't great, but as long as I land a single cluster of 5 (or a medium laser) anywhere on your Savannah Master, with it's whopping 3 points of armor on all sides and it's two whole points of internals (if I remember right), you die.

Besides, haven't you done what you've accused our Archer-wielding friend of doing? You've constructed a scenario to specifically and directly counter what he's using (single map sheet, no cover, no terrain, open ground that lets you maximize the effectiveness of your Savannah Masters). Why is your tactic any more "noble" than his? Because you don't use IDF?

[Joseph Mallan]

KraftySOT, on 17 November 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

Which is precisely the problem here.

There is no AH HA! to the LRM "problem" in MWO. Theres sit. Or magic jesus box.

Theres no, well then I want to fight you in open terrain, I want to bring vtols, hover aps and anti mech infantry. Theres no BV to play around with and a way to discover and defeat that strategy. At least not as a single person. You have to coordinate with a unit of players. Thats fine for the group, which is why you dont see the LRMaggedon in Group. But that by default makes it nigh impossible to counter ENJOYABLY (yes you can reliably shut down that tactic yourself, but your stuck with your teams ability to do the same, or not)

Thats the thing. How do you ENJOYABLY counter LRMs.

Funny how the fight almost always moves to a place where LRMs are not a problem when its available. HPG. Landing pad, large buildings, large rock formations. There is a place on almost every Map where LRMs are dead weight instead of weapons. I have played the counters game for 30 years man... Try to stump me!

[KraftySOT]

Not to mention the initiative ****** im going to do with that many things against his smaller force.

[Zerberus]

Catra Lanis, on 17 November 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Someone asked why getting LRM:ed was worse than getting PPC:ed or Gauss:ed. The difference, at least in PUG-land is that 4 or 6 gauss don't hit you like a rifle on full auto within 6 seconds.

And yet even in CS, BF, CoD, et.al. nobody complains about gettiing MP5ed to death, but everyone complains about snipers.

Althought specifically CoD has an interesting and nearly identical parallel to LRMs in it`s "N00b Tube", aka M203 underslung grenade launcher. The only real differences are that you don#`t get a warning from teh grenade launcher, the flight time is significantly shorter, AND (possibly most importantly) nobody with any reasonable level of skill complains about the N00b Tube, and even true n00bs understand that doing so is the best way to prove that you are in fact a n00b that needs practice before tehy start to talk about what`s wrong with game balance. They can of course provide their opinion on why they don`T like it, but that doesn`t magically improve the system to the end-all be-all of MWO that they tout it as (and Gauss/ PPC or AC/PPC much more arguably is)

Quote

Oh btw which mech as the most missile hardpoints? I want to try out the whaw, wham, wham flashbang build myself.

Actual HP count:
IS: `Pult A1, 6. up t0 6xLRM 15 possibly in extreme "no armor and to hell with ghost heat" configs
Clan: Summoner /Stormcrow, 5, up to 5x20 (summoner) or 4x20 + 1x15 possible (stormcrow)

Most usable as extreme trollboats (huge tube count, as much ammo as possible, omission of armor or backup weapons if necessary, and IMO)??
Stalker 5(m? the LRM 100 one)
BLR-1S
Stormcrow
Warhawk-B http://mwo.smurfy-ne...73868d0f6e26258

[KraftySOT]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Funny how the fight almost always moves to a place where LRMs are not a problem when its available. HPG. Landing pad, large buildings, large rock formations. There is a place on almost every Map where LRMs are dead weight instead of weapons. I have played the counters game for 30 years man... Try to stump me!

But thats the thing, EVERY MAP moves to the place where LRMs arent a problem. Thats evidence that the LRM is the single most decisive factor in how the game actually plays.

Everyone is running to the spot where the LRMs arent an issue. That means theyre an issue EVERYWHERE else.

Thats the problem. LRMs shouldnt be dictating where the fights happen. Theyre.....just lrms.

Positioning, terrain, force composition, experience, individual skill, these are what should decide where fights happen. I think its lame to see the same "play" game after game.

[Joseph Mallan]

Josef Nader, on 17 November 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Besides, haven't you done what you've accused our Archer-wielding friend of doing? You've constructed a scenario to specifically and directly counter what he's using (single map sheet, no cover, no terrain, open ground that lets you maximize the effectiveness of your Savannah Masters). Why is your tactic any more "noble" than his? Because you don't use IDF?

Funny thing is on TT, players complement both Archer and Krafty's style of play. All while coming up with counter tactics. Like FASCAMThunder, and Inferno SRM ammo!

Quote

Game Rules
Thunder LRMs fire like artillery in that they target hexes, not enemies. They deliver a minefield equal to the LRM launcher that fired them (for example Thunder rounds fired from an LRM-5 would generate 5-point minefield, an LRM-20, a 20 point field) to the targeted hex instead of doing damage to the hex.[2]

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 November 2014 - 10:57 AM.

[Catra Lanis]

Fut, on 17 November 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

Yeah, but 2 Gauss hitting the same location can take out my CDA or HBK instantly.
Don't know about you, but I'd rather have the chance to run and twist myself to safety.

Not me, I take the chances with the Gauss. You are right that they can instakill you but I don't think people in general mind getting instakilled if it only happens now and then (hasn't happened to me yet). The problem with LRM:s is they ruin half the matches, even when you win it isn't fun standing there jizzing LRM:s for the first 7 or 8 minutes or if you are playing a brawler looking at others standing there and jizzing.

Edited by Catra Lanis, 17 November 2014 - 10:55 AM.

[KraftySOT]

I mean I have the Caustic Valley map sheet.

Ive played alot of games of battletech on it. There are some similar things that occur, but every game is distinct and unique depending on a wide variety of factors.

Play the same map here in MWO, and its the same game, every game. Despite different compositions.

My position is that the indirect LRM game device, is the single most important game device for dictating how a game plays out on a given map.

I think thats bad. I think it should play differently, alot differently, depending on a multitude of factors instead of just "lets get to the LRM free zone so we can have fun"

The whole map should be fun.

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

Funny thing is on TT, players complement both Archer and Krafty's style of play. All while coming up with counter tactics. Like FASCAM, and Inferno SRM ammo!

And generally you only do that stuff to munchkins.

I dont want to see my opponent come with some really cheesey munchkin strategy that I have to come up with a way to counter. I want to play with the guy who says, he, lets roll up some random mechs by house and see what happens.

Alot of this comes down to the options were not given here in MWO to play the way we want to play.

Whereas the TT, allows pretty much anything within your imagination so long as the other player is cool with it. Theres alot more comraderie between players in the TT. You get to play with people you enjoy playing with more often. You can avoid playing with the people you dont want to play with.

And heck most of my Megamek games, and Btech games of the last 5-7 years have all been campaigns...doing repair and buying stuff. Tracking pilot pay and techs. All that kind of stuff lends itself to the kind of game I want to play.

Im looking for a more immersive balanced experience. Where long term choices and strategies play out, or dont. Rather than trying to grind my one time opponent into the ground so bad he cries for momma.

Who cares about some one I play with just once. Im more of a social butterfly I guess. I want to have fun, and build a relationship with my opponent, and then grind him into the dirt.

[Joseph Mallan]

KraftySOT, on 17 November 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

I mean I have the Caustic Valley map sheet.

Ive played alot of games of battletech on it. There are some similar things that occur, but every game is distinct and unique depending on a wide variety of factors.

Play the same map here in MWO, and its the same game, every game. Despite different compositions.

My position is that the indirect LRM game device, is the single most important game device for dictating how a game plays out on a given map.

I think thats bad. I think it should play differently, alot differently, depending on a multitude of factors instead of just "lets get to the LRM free zone so we can have fun"

The whole map should be fun.



And generally you only do that stuff to munchkins.

I dont want to see my opponent come with some really cheesey munchkin strategy that I have to come up with a way to counter. I want to play with the guy who says, he, lets roll up some random mechs by house and see what happens.

Alot of this comes down to the options were not given here in MWO to play the way we want to play.

Whereas the TT, allows pretty much anything within your imagination so long as the other player is cool with it. Theres alot more comraderie between players in the TT. You get to play with people you enjoy playing with more often. You can avoid playing with the people you dont want to play with.

I would do that to your Savanna Master force in a heartbeat.

the Whole map is fun! Just not for everyone at every grid. Do you think I Like Caustic with its open terrain and my Brawler Mech? But it does have a few tight areas where I can bring the BOOM on you in a hurry.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 November 2014 - 11:02 AM.

[CocoaJin]

OP, don't say that...no one "deserves" to be LRMed, no means no.

[KraftySOT]

I never looked at Btech like people look at MTG. Im not gearing a "deck" to a single strategy. Thats munchkin stuff. Im not "unfolding a single play" in the hopes that you have nothing to counter it.

I much prefer a balanced match of wits that extends beyond the deployment phase. I hate knowing exactly how a game will go, when I see the enemy deploy. Thats just boring. Ive been there, done that, thats why I know what to expect. I like seeing the guy put out a varied balanced force and having no idea what is intentions or play will be. Then discovering that over the course of the game, and adapting to that, and over coming it if possible.

Different strokes for different folks.

I know LRMs cant be all things to all people...but it seems instead of the feast or famine style game play with them, that PGI can do better.

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

I would do that to your Savanna Master force in a heartbeat.

the Whole map is fun! Just not for everyone at every grid. Do you think I Like Caustic with its open terrain and my Brawler Mech? But it does have a few tight areas where I can bring the BOOM on you in a hurry.

Id never bring a cheese force against a random force. Id have to hang my head in shame for the rest of my days.

But now for purely entertainment purposes, id totally do that. Nothing is more fun than 15 piloting check fails a turn for 6 turns straight. Oh the slides.....the slides...

We'd have to do an urban map...of course. Really long streets and tight turns

[Joseph Mallan]

KraftySOT, on 17 November 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

I never looked at Btech like people look at MTG. Im not gearing a "deck" to a single strategy. Thats munchkin stuff. Im not "unfolding a single play" in the hopes that you have nothing to counter it.

I much prefer a balanced match of wits that extends beyond the deployment phase. I hate knowing exactly how a game will go, when I see the enemy deploy. Thats just boring. Ive been there, done that, thats why I know what to expect. I like seeing the guy put out a varied balanced force and having no idea what is intentions or play will be. Then discovering that over the course of the game, and adapting to that, and over coming it if possible.

Different strokes for different folks.

I know LRMs cant be all things to all people...but it seems instead of the feast or famine style game play with them, that PGI can do better.



Id never bring a cheese force against a random force. Id have to hang my head in shame for the rest of my days.

But now for purely entertainment purposes, id totally do that. Nothing is more fun than 15 piloting check fails a turn for 6 turns straight. Oh the slides.....the slides...

We'd have to do an urban map...of course. Really long streets and tight turns

He said his Archer Lance... That is the tactic for a single lance. Not say an entire company. I would easily bring his tactics to a full company and use them as they are meant to be used. A beast to slay you with. It is not Munch if its right out of the record Sheets/TROs!

[KraftySOT]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

He said his Archer Lance... That is the tactic for a single lance. Not say an entire company. I would easily bring his tactics to a full company and use them as they are meant to be used. A beast to slay you with. It is not Munch if its right out of the record Sheets/TROs!

True but size mitigates those "plays" to a large degree. They also open the door for more counters. Two company sized forces, should contain several dedicated lances.

I mean imagine its steel panthers and youre playing a small battle, and one guy brings a rifle company and the other guy brings 4 armored cars in 1939 play. Thats just a bad set up. And if its on purpose, the guy taking the ACs is kind of a munchkins. Now those engagements absolutely happen and if you both choose to do that in a game, more power to you, that can be alot of fun. Throwing soviets at panzers can be enjoyable, and ive played plenty of lopsided scenarios. Gallipoli can only be fun if you enjoy losing the LEAST you can lose. If you enjoy just mitigating loses and playing a historical scenario.

In MWO you dont have all these outside options, so you get lopsided battles by accident and not by design. Though, the people attempting to make it lopsided in their favor, are doing it by design, yet the people who its not lopsided in their favor, fell into it entirely by accident.

Thus the frustration ensues.

[Star Witch Esperanza]

weird victim blaming aside it takes two people to lrm somebody, one to get hit by the lrms and the other to fire them.

[Bulletsponge0]

If LRMs are so bad, why do so many people use them?

If LRMs are so good, why don't more people use them?

[KraftySOT]

Also of course youre at the whim of 11 angry men. Whereas in Btech you usually have total control of your forces.

Frustration also ensues when your magic jesus box runs off to snipe on the other side of the map, leaving you Picard Face, as the LRMs begin their reign.

Theres alot of factors that lead to you being LRMed, which is viewed as low skill, by accident. Youre doing your part, but another part of the widget stops doing its job...and then youre back in the forums making an LRM post.

Theres alot of factors that arent translated over, and its leaves a gaping hole in the enjoyment level for alot of people I think.