444 replies to this topic

[Hillslam]

agreed. Chassis by chassis. I think the weapons on both IS and clam need left alone for awhile.

[KharnZor]

Clan mechs are more of a novelty to me than anything else.
I prefer piloting almost any IS mech over clans hands down.

Oh and also, fear the AC20 Hunch.

[Wintersdark]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 November 2014 - 07:37 PM, said:

CERPPC doesn't run any hotter than the IS PPC, yet it weighs less and does more damage even if it's splash. The trade is extra range and no minimum limit, same as the IS.

It doesn't matter that Clans don't have a regular PPC option, because it's not like the IS have an 8-damage weapon that only weighs 2 tons or a 12 damage weapon that only weighs 6.

So, please, quit harping on the C-ERPPC. It's no better or worse than the IS ERPPC, and that's exactly how it should be.

CERPPC: 15 heat.

IS PPC: 10 heat.

Yes, the IS ERPPC is also 15 heat, but it is also trash.

Anyways, my point wasn't so much that the cerppc is bad (though it is), but rather that the Clans no longer have much of a range advantage post quirks. Many IS mechs sport comparable ranges with quirks at much, much lower heat.

Anyways, I'm not crying that poor clans are underpowered. Just that the perception of clan power is based entirely on 2-3 specific chassis. The difference between the good clan mechs and the rest is very, very large.

[Andi Nagasia]

Wintersdark, on 29 November 2014 - 08:28 PM, said:

CERPPC: 15 heat.

IS PPC: 10 heat.

Yes, the IS ERPPC is also 15 heat, but it is also trash.

Anyways, my point wasn't so much that the cerppc is bad (though it is), but rather that the Clans no longer have much of a range advantage post quirks. Many IS mechs sport comparable ranges with quirks at much, much lower heat.

Anyways, I'm not crying that poor clans are underpowered. Just that the perception of clan power is based entirely on 2-3 specific chassis. The difference between the good clan mechs and the rest is very, very large.

this is true,
my LCT-3M, 190XL, 3DHS, 1BAP, 5ML-Range=351(WithQuirks)
C-ER-ML range is 405, so not that much less, also less heat, i can alpha 6 times,

[Y E O N N E]

Wintersdark, on 29 November 2014 - 08:28 PM, said:

CERPPC: 15 heat.

IS PPC: 10 heat.

Yes, the IS ERPPC is also 15 heat, but it is also trash.

Anyways, my point wasn't so much that the cerppc is bad (though it is), but rather that the Clans no longer have much of a range advantage post quirks. Many IS mechs sport comparable ranges with quirks at much, much lower heat.

Anyways, I'm not crying that poor clans are underpowered. Just that the perception of clan power is based entirely on 2-3 specific chassis. The difference between the good clan mechs and the rest is very, very large.

I meant to say it does not run any hotter than the IS ERPPC. That said, they are both trash, the IS one even more so because it's a whole ton heavier and IS 'Mechs always have worse heat dissipation, so I don't see why the Clan one should get a buff to do 15 pinpoint damage at all. As for the regular IS PPC being 10 heat for 10 damage, well, C-LPL is 10 heat for 13 damage and out-ranges the PPC by quite a bit. It also weighs six tons. Yes, this is a valid comparison because there is nothing in the IS arsenal even remotely comparable.

As for "Clans OP!" I've never really been in that camp. I thought Clans were more or less okay where they were on release with the exception of the C-ERML burn time (a hair too short, damage should've been at an equal rate to the IS ML), the C-ERLL range (way too long without buffing IS ERLL back to 720 meters) and the Storm Crow (needs a small torso twist/pitch nerf). I was a fan of the "requires more skill to extract potential" line of thinking. Now, we just have massive laser vomit being spammed to varying degrees of effectiveness by hordes of talentless hacks in 'Mechs they recently purchased with C-bills because people on the forum have been crying about how powerful they are.

That being said, and don't take this as QQ over the game because I've never had problems killing Clanners, I don't think Clans deserve or need a range advantage. Ignoring the lore, which A.) pretty much paints the Clans as socially deficient cowards hiding behind incredible hypocrisy and superior tech () and B.) does nothing to help balance the game, the Clan 'Mechs collectively move faster than their IS adversaries for a given level of firepower and armor. It makes no sense at all for them to have a range advantage if this is the case but it does make ALL THE SENSE for them to be the ones that have to close into brawling ranges as far as balance goes. Otherwise, the Clans can just hold the IS out at their weapons' max ranges and tear them apart.

It's quite apparent that everything is a Band-Aid fix, and while it's getting better, they really ought to go back to the drawing board with the whole thing and start fresh considering all the what-ifs and what they want to accomplish with the game direction.

Finally, for game balance, core rule ignore.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 November 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

I meant to say it does not run any hotter than the IS ERPPC. That said, they are both trash, the IS one even more so because it's a whole ton heavier and IS 'Mechs always have worse heat dissipation, so I don't see why the Clan one should get a buff to do 15 pinpoint damage at all. As for the regular IS PPC being 10 heat for 10 damage, well, C-LPL is 10 heat for 13 damage and out-ranges the PPC by quite a bit. It also weighs six tons. Yes, this is a valid comparison because there is nothing in the IS arsenal even remotely comparable.

As for "Clans OP!" I've never really been in that camp. I thought Clans were more or less okay where they were on release with the exception of the C-ERML burn time (a hair too short, damage should've been at an equal rate to the IS ML), the C-ERLL range (way too long without buffing IS ERLL back to 720 meters) and the Storm Crow (needs a small torso twist/pitch nerf). I was a fan of the "requires more skill to extract potential" line of thinking. Now, we just have massive laser vomit being spammed to varying degrees of effectiveness by hordes of talentless hacks in 'Mechs they recently purchased with C-bills because people on the forum have been crying about how powerful they are.

That being said, and don't take this as QQ over the game because I've never had problems killing Clanners, I don't think Clans deserve or need a range advantage. Ignoring the lore, which A.) pretty much paints the Clans as socially deficient cowards hiding behind incredible hypocrisy and superior tech ( ) and B.) does nothing to help balance the game, the Clan 'Mechs collectively move faster than their IS adversaries for a given level of firepower and armor. It makes no sense at all for them to have a range advantage if this is the case but it does make ALL THE SENSE for them to be the ones that have to close into brawling ranges as far as balance goes. Otherwise, the Clans can just hold the IS out at their weapons' max ranges and tear them apart.

It's quite apparent that everything is a Band-Aid fix, and while it's getting better, they really ought to go back to the drawing board with the whole thing and start fresh considering all the what-ifs and what they want to accomplish with the game direction.

Finally, for game balance, core rule ignore.

C-LPL is not PP-FLD, and that is why it ain't comparable.

For instance (mind you I am no expert shot) average only 6.3 dmg per hit with C-LPL. I would venture a bet that no one is avg above 10.

And you still have to face the enemy for an extended period, whereas the PPC is shoot and scoot.

[Y E O N N E]

I don't think that's an entirely accurate analysis. I bet your average pilot will take about a second to peak, a second to aim and fire, and then a second to get back in cover. Fire that LPL. He's either going to tank the damage to get his PPC shot off or he's going to torso twist and miss the PPC shot. Either way, you, the C-LPL user, come out on top.

The only potential problems are 'Mechs like the Cicada, Adder, or Ice Ferret firing as they fly between cover, but those have so little armor that whether or not the whole beam hits them in one spot is not as important because the damage done is still significant. I'm not really concerned with TTK against 'Mechs that are inherently low TTK, but the TTK against larger 'Mechs who shouldn't be low TTK. In that sense, the C-LPL is a much better weapon than the PPC.

Finally, if that doesn't convince you, it's still a potent, unique weapon in the Clan arsenal that has no IS equivalent at all. Win some, lose some. That's what Clans vs. IS is supposed to be about.

[Wintersdark]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 November 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

I don't think that's an entirely accurate analysis. I bet your average pilot will take about a second to peak, a second to aim and fire, and then a second to get back in cover. Fire that LPL. He's either going to tank the damage to get his PPC shot off or he's going to torso twist and miss the PPC shot. Either way, you, the C-LPL user, come out on top.

The only potential problems are 'Mechs like the Cicada, Adder, or Ice Ferret firing as they fly between cover, but those have so little armor that whether or not the whole beam hits them in one spot is not as important because the damage done is still significant. I'm not really concerned with TTK against 'Mechs that are inherently low TTK, but the TTK against larger 'Mechs who shouldn't be low TTK. In that sense, the C-LPL is a much better weapon than the PPC.

Finally, if that doesn't convince you, it's still a potent, unique weapon in the Clan arsenal that has no IS equivalent at all. Win some, lose some. That's what Clans vs. IS is supposed to be about.

The CLPL is a decent weapon, but it does have an IS equivilant: the humble Large Laser. Basic stats, in terms of DPS and DPH are reasonably comparable, but the juice comes in when you add quirks. Given range/heat quirks common to many mechs, those Large Lasers become vastly superior to CLPL's.

CLPL vs IS PPC: not that good a comparison at the best of times. Very different weapons.

Now, don't get me wrong here. My point with the weapons discussion at all is two fold:

1) Clan weapon nerfs brought down the big baddies (timberwolf et all)but also hurt the already poor clan mechs.
2) IS weapon buffs by way of quirks have totally removed any Clan weapon range advantage. Look at how many IS mechs sport fairly substantial range buffing quirks.

To be clear: I'm not crying that Clan as a faction are weak, or that there's a problem that needs immediate addressing.

Rather, the point I'm trying to convey is that a great many of the Traditional "Why Clans Are Good" talking points no longer (or, in many ways, never where) valid arguments.

Clans have a couple good mechs, which will be heavily restricted in CW.
In the MWO of today:

Clans no longer have a noteworthy range advantage.
Clans generate _vastly_ more heat than appropriately build IS mechs
Clans _theoretically_ sink more heat, but generally this is only relevant on the "good" clan mechs anyways who have the tonnage to pack more dhs. However, realistically clan mechs will have a 2-3 DHS advantage - this isn't even close to covering for the higher base heat of clan weapons, even before comparing to quirked IS weapons.

I'm very interested to see how this plays out in CW with tonnage limits heavily limiting Timberwolves and Direwolves.

[Andi Nagasia]

I agree with the Above,
and As i Said,

Andi Nagasia, on 29 November 2014 - 08:59 PM, said:

my LCT-3M, 190XL, 3DHS, 1BAP, 5ML-Range=351(WithQuirks)
C-ER-ML range is 405, so not that much less, also less heat, i can alpha 6 times,

i would really like to see and Prefer that all the Omni-Pods get Quirks,
that way we can have a reason for choosing a certain type,

Example-
NVA-P LL= +5% heat Efficiency,
NVA-B LL= +5% Acceleration & Deceleration,
NVA-S LL= -5% Fall Damage,

their is really no reason to choose an Omni-Pod other than that pods hard-points,
if they all got quirked you would have to run full NVA-P to get the Heat Efficiency perks,

Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 29 November 2014 - 10:09 PM.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Brody319, on 29 November 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

Stormcrow, Timberwolf, and Direwhale pretty much outclass everything in their weight class. Without them, the other clan mechs are good or average they out shine some IS mechs and are worse than others.

One thousand times this.

If you remove the Dire Wolf, Timber Wolf, and Stormcrow completely from the game... IS mechs would trump Clan. Especially with quirks involved.

On the other side of the coin, if Clan Pack 2 was released FIRST, then there would be no complaining about OP'dness, people probably asking for refunds, and would probably force PGI to quirk CLAN mechs first.

I mean honestly, I don't mind the quirkening issue, so long as the majority of the terribad clan mechs/omnipods get similar once-overs with quirks that the IS mechs did.

But in order for either side, IS or CLAN to have a serious conversation about balancing, they need to remove Dire Wolf, Timber Wolf, and Stormcrow from the factoring and then ask themselves "Is this fair or equally competative?"

[Metus regem]

Hillslam, on 29 November 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

As of the last full stop data gather after the quirks were added Russ reported clans were winning 64% of the time. That means IS were winning 36%. Or roughly a double win rate.

So no, its not even. And no it aint the pilots.

Actually, it is the pilots, in that last round of testing the clan pilots were on average of 100-120 elo points higher than the IS pilots, and as many math-hammers had hit that, it was shown a gap of that much should give a 60%/ 65% win rate.

Taking that into account, that would mean that even elo pilots it would be almost 50/50, so balanced.

[Ultimax]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 November 2014 - 07:37 PM, said:

It doesn't matter that Clans don't have a regular PPC option, because it's not like the IS have an 8-damage weapon that only weighs 2 tons or a 12 damage weapon that only weighs 6.

It matters because trying to fire 2x of this is a large, instant, heat spike that few clan mechs can realistically manage.


Having a low heat option, even with drawbacks, is clearly very good - this is why we see PPCs used over ERPPCs IS side.

Personally, I don't think the splash damage is worth the extra heat.

Wintersdark, on 29 November 2014 - 09:52 PM, said:

1) Clan weapon nerfs brought down the big baddies (timberwolf et all)but also hurt the already poor clan mechs.
2) IS weapon buffs by way of quirks have totally removed any Clan weapon range advantage. Look at how many IS mechs sport fairly substantial range buffing quirks.

To be clear: I'm not crying that Clan as a faction are weak, or that there's a problem that needs immediate addressing.

Rather, the point I'm trying to convey is that a great many of the Traditional "Why Clans Are Good" talking points no longer (or, in many ways, never where) valid arguments.

Clans have a couple good mechs, which will be heavily restricted in CW.
In the MWO of today:

Clans no longer have a noteworthy range advantage.
Clans generate _vastly_ more heat than appropriately build IS mechs
Clans _theoretically_ sink more heat, but generally this is only relevant on the "good" clan mechs anyways who have the tonnage to pack more dhs. However, realistically clan mechs will have a 2-3 DHS advantage - this isn't even close to covering for the higher base heat of clan weapons, even before comparing to quirked IS weapons.

I'm very interested to see how this plays out in CW with tonnage limits heavily limiting Timberwolves and Direwolves.

Yeah, these are good points.

There is only so much that "moar" heat sinks can realistically do.

When you see a 7 MPL build that has 300+m range and deals 42 damage for only 21 heat, vs. 6 CMPL build that does 48 damage at 300+m range, but for 36 heat - my opinion is that the IS version is clearly superior.


IS Specialists have even cooler than already lower heat energy weapons, significantly shorter burn times, comparable range, higher RoF/DPS, more pinpoint on high cooldowns or increased velocity (seriously, some IS mechs have AC 20 pinpoint shots that fly faster than the multi-pellet shooting spread damage UAC 20s?) etc.


Is every IS mech "fixed"? No, and I don't think anyone reasonable thought the first pass would solve everything neatly.


On the other hand, you can build quite a number of specialists that basically meet or exceed similar clan mech builds in one or more areas - with only a few extreme outliers that can't currently be matched (Dakka/Gauss Wolf, King Crab will be interesting though).

Edited by Ultimatum X, 29 November 2014 - 10:21 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 November 2014 - 07:37 PM, said:

CERPPC doesn't run any hotter than the IS PPC, yet it weighs less and does more damage even if it's splash. The trade is extra range and no minimum limit, same as the IS.

It doesn't matter that Clans don't have a regular PPC option, because it's not like the IS have an 8-damage weapon that only weighs 2 tons or a 12 damage weapon that only weighs 6.

So, please, quit harping on the C-ERPPC. It's no better or worse than the IS ERPPC, and that's exactly how it should be.

Quite frankly, I feel the ERPPC both Clam and IS should be atleast 13 or 13dmg with the 15 heat, they can split the last dmg either 1/1 or remove it entirely. But having them be 10dmg and 15 heat....doesnt really make them at all worth carrying, esp since WuBuffs..

And sure, maybe they would become 6t Gauss Rifles, but ERPPCs still run hotter then hell, or atleast as hot...so endlessly spam firing them till the bins run dry isnt quite an option.

Hell, id even take 5s Cool down, 13dmg/15heat

[Y E O N N E]

Wintersdark, on 29 November 2014 - 09:52 PM, said:

The CLPL is a decent weapon, but it does have an IS equivilant: the humble Large Laser. Basic stats, in terms of DPS and DPH are reasonably comparable, but the juice comes in when you add quirks. Given range/heat quirks common to many mechs, those Large Lasers become vastly superior to CLPL's.

CLPL vs IS PPC: not that good a comparison at the best of times. Very different weapons.

Now, don't get me wrong here. My point with the weapons discussion at all is two fold:

1) Clan weapon nerfs brought down the big baddies (timberwolf et all)but also hurt the already poor clan mechs.
2) IS weapon buffs by way of quirks have totally removed any Clan weapon range advantage. Look at how many IS mechs sport fairly substantial range buffing quirks.

To be clear: I'm not crying that Clan as a faction are weak, or that there's a problem that needs immediate addressing.

Rather, the point I'm trying to convey is that a great many of the Traditional "Why Clans Are Good" talking points no longer (or, in many ways, never where) valid arguments.

Clans have a couple good mechs, which will be heavily restricted in CW.
In the MWO of today:

Clans no longer have a noteworthy range advantage.
Clans generate _vastly_ more heat than appropriately build IS mechs
Clans _theoretically_ sink more heat, but generally this is only relevant on the "good" clan mechs anyways who have the tonnage to pack more dhs. However, realistically clan mechs will have a 2-3 DHS advantage - this isn't even close to covering for the higher base heat of clan weapons, even before comparing to quirked IS weapons.

I'm very interested to see how this plays out in CW with tonnage limits heavily limiting Timberwolves and Direwolves.

The Large Laser does 9 damage for 7 heat. It is better compared to the C-ERML (or, stretching, C-MPL...still a lower delta between LL and C-MPL than LL and C-LPL) because it has neither the range nor the punch to begin to compete with the C-LPL and is generally useless next to the ERLL (also benefits from very common quirks), which partially mitigates its heat penalty by having a marginally longer beam duration. The DPS doesn't really matter unless you are tanking, and if we're talking about tanking then obviously we are disregarding the benefits of the front-loaded damage that a PPC provides. In a tanking situation, the C-LPL absolutely wins versus even the IS PPC, especially if the user closes distance. The IS Large Laser might win...but those cool-down and duration quirks are going to do a number on the IS cooling system, which brings me to the next point of interest.

Inner Sphere 'Mechs always have inferior heat dissipation compared to their Clan counterparts if they are both sporting similar firepower. Always. It's not even a generalization, it's simple math: it takes more equipment for the IS to match a Clan alpha and that equipment weighs more and takes up more slots. While the Clan 'Mech might heat up faster, all it has to do is wait a second or two to cool off and then vomit all over the target again. The Inner Sphere 'Mech has to wait longer to do the same thing, and any number of events could happen in that time frame.

And we're not even factoring in IS XLs making for an easier target, how the guy with the higher pinpoint alpha at a given range gains the initiative if his target takes cover, so on and so forth.

So, in the end, it's really not just about the numbers; it's about how you use them. How are you engaging? How many of the weapon do you have? How many heat-sinks did you bring? What are your quirks, if applicable? What's your top speed? Is your engine STD or XL? What's your distance to target? What's open on the target?

All that crap factors in, and that's what I'm taking into account when I make my claims.

As for the Clans not having range advantage anymore and having high heat penalties, it's an interesting development. I didn't agree with the heat nerfs when they happened, but right now those same heat nerfs are the only thing keeping the horrendous laser vomit in check. Nobody should be able to survive producing a 60, 70, 80 point alpha that is composed almost entirely out of lasers.

You mention the dissipation not off-setting the spike; but you failed to qualify it. The heat spike is there to offset the higher base damage. It takes THREE IS MLs to reach near parity with two C-ERMLs. That's 12 heat. Two C-ERMLs are also 12 heat. IS took more tonnage to get it there, ergo it has one less ton to spend on a heatsink. When you have six C-ERML, you are producing 36 heat for 42 damage. It's going to take you eight IS MLs to get near that, and then you incur ghost heat to 39 points for 2 less damage. You've also now got two less tons and two less slots to spend on sinks. Even with quirks and modules there is still at a significant range deficit (most IS MedLas top out at 324 m after quirks AND modules...Locusts can get to 365 and 378, but it's a fuggin' Locust!), and chances are that the Clan 'Mech is faster than the IS 'Mech, too.

The DPS for IS might be appealing, but it ultimately doesn't matter because, at the top end, MWO is not a DPS game; it's an alpha game. Alpha, cover, alpha, cover. That's why the IS appear to get off the hook with heat: they have much steeper costs to get to the same kind of alpha. Lower speed, lower durability, worse heat management. Who cares about your DPS when you can be dead in two shots, anyway? That's the cost of just trying to get into a position where DPS does matter: getting blasted to bits by high-alpha vomit.

It's all fair. It's all very, very fair.



That being said, it is my opinion that we've reached the limit that the heat system in MWO can take and still be playable. I think it's time the game moved to a low-cap, high-dissipation scheme because the amount of damage getting thrown around like it's no big deal is reaching some pretty comedic levels. When you can strip the CT on something like a Battlemaster in one shot without overheating (and you can) while driving a light-weight like the Storm Crow, and then make a follow-up shot in short order, you know it's time to fix the game. The broken underlying mechanics are what's going to hold everything back for the development and enjoyment of CW for both the IS and the Clans.

I want a fun, fair game for everybody.

Ultimatum X, on 29 November 2014 - 10:21 PM, said:

It matters because trying to fire 2x of this is a large, instant, heat spike that few clan mechs can realistically manage.


Having a low heat option, even with drawbacks, is clearly very good - this is why we see PPCs used over ERPPCs IS side.

Personally, I don't think the splash damage is worth the extra heat.

The extra heat isn't for the splash damage, it's for the extra range and the removal of the 90m limit. That was my original point. You have zero penalties for that extra 5 damage, even if it's splash, so you have zero points to criticize relative to the Inner Sphere ER PPC and, in fact, Clans have it better because it weighs less. And before we get into it, the weight reductions on Clan weapons do far more than compensate for big, locked engines and locked Ferro/Endo.

It's also not like the Inner Sphere can handle the heat any better. In fact, firing two regular PPCs to an Inner Sphere 'Mech is often just as heat-intensive to them as firing two C-ERPPCs would be to a Clan 'Mech because the Inner Sphere generally have worse dissipation for a given combination of armor, speed, and firepower. The reasons include bringing a STD engine for durability, having DHS that require one more slot and so they can't fit it in, IS equipment weighing more and available tonnage running out, IS equipment requiring more slots and running out of slots, or because the IS just simply required more guns to reach parity.

There are your trade-offs.

Go build an ADR with two ERPPCs and as many heatsinks as you can cram in there without compromising the armor too much and then do the same with a JR7 using Endo, Ferro, an XL210, and regular PPCs. JR7 looks like it wins on heat, but does it really win? No, it doesn't, because its dissipation is significantly worse and it also has a weakness not shared by the ADR in its side torsos and in its lack of range. The ADR can just keep the JR7 out at 700 meters and plink away, using only one ERPPC because at 700 m the JR7 is going to have to use both to compensate.

Only the Awesome really gets away with boating PPCs on the IS side, and that more or less merely puts it in competition with the Warhawk. We can go around in circles for days on that one.

LordKnightFandragon, on 30 November 2014 - 12:50 AM, said:

Quite frankly, I feel the ERPPC both Clam and IS should be atleast 13 or 13dmg with the 15 heat, they can split the last dmg either 1/1 or remove it entirely. But having them be 10dmg and 15 heat....doesnt really make them at all worth carrying, esp since WuBuffs..

And sure, maybe they would become 6t Gauss Rifles, but ERPPCs still run hotter then hell, or atleast as hot...so endlessly spam firing them till the bins run dry isnt quite an option.

Hell, id even take 5s Cool down, 13dmg/15heat

The very fact that you've brought up the Wubs being more palatable than the PPC should tell the others in here that, yes, the C-LPL is an alternative to the PPC.

At any rate, I don't really disagree with the idea of raising the damage to both, because that's fair, and it helps make the heat worthwhile. The thing is, I think PPCs should have a brief self-charging time before they fire after you click the button, because that's how they've always been depicted and that also helps make them a bit more challenging to use, which is good for such a high-damage weapon that has endless usability and a long reach.

5s cool-down is also good.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 30 November 2014 - 01:08 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 November 2014 - 01:01 AM, said:

The Large Laser does 9 damage for 7 heat. It is better compared to the C-ERML (or, stretching, C-MPL...still a lower delta between LL and C-MPL than LL and C-LPL) because it has neither the range nor the punch to begin to compete with the C-LPL and is generally useless next to the ERLL (also benefits from very common quirks), which partially mitigates its heat penalty by having a marginally longer beam duration. The DPS doesn't really matter unless you are tanking, and if we're talking about tanking then obviously we are disregarding the benefits of the front-loaded damage that a PPC provides. In a tanking situation, the C-LPL absolutely wins versus even the IS PPC, especially if the user closes distance. The IS Large Laser might win...but those cool-down and duration quirks are going to do a number on the IS cooling system, which brings me to the next point of interest.

Inner Sphere 'Mechs always have inferior heat dissipation compared to their Clan counterparts if they are both sporting similar firepower. Always. It's not even a generalization, it's simple math: it takes more equipment for the IS to match a Clan alpha and that equipment weighs more and takes up more slots. While the Clan 'Mech might heat up faster, all it has to do is wait a second or two to cool off and then vomit all over the target again. The Inner Sphere 'Mech has to wait longer to do the same thing, and any number of events could happen in that time frame.

And we're not even factoring in IS XLs making for an easier target, how the guy with the higher pinpoint alpha at a given range gains the initiative if his target takes cover, so on and so forth.

So, in the end, it's really not just about the numbers; it's about how you use them. How are you engaging? How many of the weapon do you have? How many heat-sinks did you bring? What are your quirks, if applicable? What's your top speed? Is your engine STD or XL? What's your distance to target? What's open on the target?

All that crap factors in, and that's what I'm taking into account when I make my claims.

As for the Clans not having range advantage anymore and having high heat penalties, it's an interesting development. I didn't agree with the heat nerfs when they happened, but right now those same heat nerfs are the only thing keeping the horrendous laser vomit in check. Nobody should be able to survive producing a 60, 70, 80 point alpha that is composed almost entirely out of lasers.

You mention the dissipation not off-setting the spike; but you failed to qualify it. The heat spike is there to offset the higher base damage. It takes THREE IS MLs to reach near parity with two C-ERMLs. That's 12 heat. Two C-ERMLs are also 12 heat. IS took more tonnage to get it there, ergo it has one less ton to spend on a heatsink. When you have six C-ERML, you are producing 36 heat for 42 damage. It's going to take you eight IS MLs to get near that, and then you incur ghost heat to 39 points for 2 less damage. You've also now got two less tons and two less slots to spend on sinks. Even with quirks and modules there is still at a significant range deficit (most IS MedLas top out at 324 m after quirks AND modules...Locusts can get to 365 and 378, but it's a fuggin' Locust!), and chances are that the Clan 'Mech is faster than the IS 'Mech, too.

The DPS for IS might be appealing, but it ultimately doesn't matter because, at the top end, MWO is not a DPS game; it's an alpha game. Alpha, cover, alpha, cover. That's why the IS appear to get off the hook with heat: they have much steeper costs to get to the same kind of alpha. Lower speed, lower durability, worse heat management. Who cares about your DPS when you can be dead in two shots, anyway? That's the cost of just trying to get into a position where DPS does matter: getting blasted to bits by high-alpha vomit.

It's all fair. It's all very, very fair.



That being said, it is my opinion that we've reached the limit that the heat system in MWO can take and still be playable. I think it's time the game moved to a low-cap, high-dissipation scheme because the amount of damage getting thrown around like it's no big deal is reaching some pretty comedic levels. When you can strip the CT on something like a Battlemaster in one shot without overheating (and you can) while driving a light-weight like the Storm Crow, and then make a follow-up shot in short order, you know it's time to fix the game. The broken underlying mechanics are what's going to hold everything back for the development and enjoyment of CW for both the IS and the Clans.

I want a fun, fair game for everybody.




The extra heat isn't for the splash damage, it's for the extra range and the removal of the 90m limit. That was my original point. You have zero penalties for that extra 5 damage, even if it's splash, so you have zero points to criticize relative to the Inner Sphere ER PPC and, in fact, Clans have it better because it weighs less. And before we get into it, the weight reductions on Clan weapons do far more than compensate for big, locked engines and locked Ferro/Endo.

It's also not like the Inner Sphere can handle the heat any better. In fact, firing two regular PPCs to an Inner Sphere 'Mech is often just as heat-intensive to them as firing two C-ERPPCs would be to a Clan 'Mech because the Inner Sphere generally have worse dissipation for a given combination of armor, speed, and firepower. The reasons include bringing a STD engine for durability, having DHS that require one more slot and so they can't fit it in, IS equipment weighing more and available tonnage running out, IS equipment requiring more slots and running out of slots, or because the IS just simply required more guns to reach parity.

There are your trade-offs.

Go build an ADR with two ERPPCs and as many heatsinks as you can cram in there without compromising the armor too much and then do the same with a JR7 using Endo, Ferro, an XL210, and regular PPCs. JR7 looks like it wins on heat, but does it really win? No, it doesn't, because its dissipation is significantly worse and it also has a weakness not shared by the ADR in its side torsos and in its lack of range. The ADR can just keep the JR7 out at 700 meters and plink away, using only one ERPPC because at 700 m the JR7 is going to have to use both to compensate.

Only the Awesome really gets away with boating PPCs on the IS side, and that more or less merely puts it in competition with the Warhawk. We can go around in circles for days on that one.



The very fact that you've brought up the Wubs being more palatable than the PPC should tell the others in here that, yes, the C-LPL is an alternative to the PPC.

At any rate, I don't really disagree with the idea of raising the damage to both, because that's fair, and it helps make the heat worthwhile. The thing is, I think PPCs should have a brief self-charging time before they fire after you click the button, because that's how they've always been depicted and that also helps make them a bit more challenging to use, which is good for such a high-damage weapon that has endless usability and a long reach.

5s cool-down is also good.

Charge time? As in like the GR? I find that one annoying to work with, cuz you gotta hold to charge and then fire....

Id rather it be like the LRM closed door delay. You push the fire button, it waits .5s and then fires on it's own....then you can still chain fire, but they just fire with a slight delay...

[Y E O N N E]

Not like the Gauss, This one would charge by itself and fire by itself; all you have to do is click once. The catch is, once you click, it's going to charge and fire; there's no aborting like the Gauss.

It would make players really consider their shots so they can't just spam blue orbs of death.

So, yeah, kind of like waiting for the LRM doors to open, but the delay is there on every shot.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 30 November 2014 - 01:20 AM.

[Ano]

Mcgral18, on 29 November 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

Clams ...Clams ... Clams ... Clam

MOMENT OF LEVITY: This tickled my juvenile bits. Tee hee.

Carry on.

[mindwarp]

With community warfare coming, and tonnage limits, you can't just compare light to light, medium to medium etc. You have to compare tonnage to tonnage.

Mist Lynx 25t - IS competitors Locust and Commando. LCT and COM are faster, but lack JJ and are squishier with their XL engines. Mist Lynx has JJ, and clan weapons. The ECM Commando probably has more utility, but the Lynx is superior to all the other COM's. LCT vs Lynx comes down to pilot skill and terrain.

Kit Fox 30t - IS competitors Spider. SDR's combination of hitboxes, speed and ECM wins. Kit Fox probably has more utility though since it can pack NARC and triple AMS. Not every CW match is going to be between top ELO teams.

Adder 35t - IS competitors Jenner, Firestarter, Raven and soon Panther. The Adder's role as a fire support light hurts it. It'll be better than the Panther - packing twice the firepower of the IS mech in the same role, but it clearly loses out to the JR7, FS9 and RVN.

The 45t Ice Ferret gets to stack up against the Blackjack, Vindicator and Cicada. It's easily better than the VND and CDA, and probably still a bit better than a BJ.

Nova 50t - IS competitor Hunchback, Centurion, Trebuchet and soon Enforcer. Yeah, the Nova sucks. Might still be better than a Trenchbucket though.

Stormcrow 55t - IS competitors Griffin, Wolverine, Shadowhawk, Kintaro. The KTO isn't great and loses out to the SCR. The GRF is closer, but still a loser. The WVR and SHD with their quirks are pretty close, or even equal to the SCR. The 55t class is a very efficient weight, and generally makes some of the best designs.

Mad Dog 60t - Still clearly superior to the QKD and DRG, even with their quirks.

Hellbringer 65t - Well, it's broken so we can't really tell. It stacks up against the Jager and Thunderbolt though. It does have the advantage of ECM over both of them.

Summoner 70t - Faces the Cataphract and soon Grasshopper. Well, it can pack a similar loadout to a CTF, and move faster and jump. IS AC's on the CTFs probably make it even though.

Mad Cat 75t - We all know it's the best mech in the game, but for reference it faces the Orion and clearly outclasses it. Also outclasses anything lighter, and anything heavier.

Warhawk 85t - Awesomes, Victors, Battlemasters, Stalkers and Zeus's (soon). AWS and BLR are outclassed easily, Victors are about equal and Stalkers slightly superior. A valid argument could be made saying the VTR was superior with IS Ac's and that the Stalker was slightly weaker. Not much in it either way.

Dire Wolf 100T - Banshee, Highlander, Atlas and King Crab (soon). It's pretty much a wash. The Dire Wolf's lack of mobility balances out it's guns and the Banshee can mount some pretty fearsome loadouts of its own. The HGN is the loser here, but the AS7 stands a fair chance against a DW. The KGC might be a bit better when it arrives.

[Captain Stiffy]

I know that 1v1 some of the cheesiest possible completely tweaked out and maxed to the max IS builds still can't really hold their own against the more basic or derpy MAD/CAT or Daishi build and it's not for a lack of skill on my part. Pretty stupid.

[B0oN]

In sum total IS overpowers clan at the moment because quirks .
Let those settle in the IS community, tweak em till halfways acceptable then head onwards for the clan quirk pass and see how things pan out then .

No news here, OP could have asked earlier since THIS is quite strikingly noticeable .