444 replies to this topic

[Dauntless Blint]

[Redacted] what grounds would you not include the TimberWolf when comparing IS against Clan?the only reason you would exclude it would be if it was removed from the game.The OP makes no sense wanting to exclude the the inferred "God Tier mech" its ludicrous.
Clan have better alfa and sustained damage in general across all mech's where as IS get ragtag scatter shot of good and bad characteristics.if you put 4xDire,4xTimber and any selection of the rest clan is in great shape to wreck face,they also have better symmetry and weapon group cinergy which is a value you can't quantify.

Edited by John Wolf, 05 December 2014 - 05:19 AM.
Unconstructive

[John Wolf]

Hello Mechwarriors,

I've been through this thread already from a couple of reports and I want to remind everyone to keep your discussion about the facts or topic. You can discuss gauss rifles, you can discuss pod space, you can agree or disagree with other players.. but what you cannot do is target another player as part of your post. Once you start going beyond 'I think you are wrong' and move onto any kind of insults, name calling, or anything else you are responding in a way that is toxic to the community and not something we want on the forums.

I expect that any further posts in this thread will be on topic, otherwise I will be forced to take further action.

Lets be better than this mechwarriors, save your hostile fire for the battlefield.

John Wolf

[KuroNyra]

Superior or not, something always make me laught.

Clans are actually hotter than Inner Sphere mech, while it should be the opposite on the lore.

[theta123]

At first, i was an IS jockey who played solely the IS mechs untill i got the warhawk about 1.5 monhts ago. My views upon the clans changed alot and piloting the warhawk, made me an overall better mechwarrior

I always hated the direwolf with a passion, but when i GOT my own daishis (a la carte) my view once again changed dramatically about them. I learned their weaknesses now

But still, as i see with some clan mechs, they are OP yes. Direwolf, stormcrow, timberwolf..These have no problem dealing with any mechs of their counterpart. Only IS light mechs are clearly superior to clan light mechs

But does it bother me anymore? No

[Molossian Dog]

Guys...you are kidding yourselves if you think this "debate" will go anywhere. You can reason with people, you can cite numbers, you can point out obvious, undisputable facts...it matters not.

PGI will do what PGI always does. Set out to the stormy sea and harpoon themselves some whales.

And if the whales cry for clan quirks, they will get them.
(Let us ignore for a moment that their pods already give them quirks. Just not vey good ones.)

[Satan n stuff]

Mark Brandhauber, on 29 November 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

I find that the mist lynx, warhawk, direwolf, mad dog, madcat and stormcrow to all be competitive in their weightclass

You're delusional.

[FupDup]

Mark Brandhauber, on 29 November 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

I find that the mist lynx, warhawk, direwolf, mad dog, madcat and stormcrow to all be competitive in their weightclass

The Mist Lynx is literally a contender for the worst light and overall mech in the entire game, and the Mad Dog is slightly sub-par because of fragility issues. The Warhawk has its uses but it most certainly is not the best in its class.

[STEF_]

Hi Bishop, just found this thread.
Just to say what maybe you already know by me: the pilot means all, mech is relative, it's not so important.
It's not the mech that win the battle but who is piloting it, and this will be particularly true with CW.

"Average" pilots overestimate mechs over their own skills

[Michael Abt]

Alistair Winter, on 29 November 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

(...)The Jackhammer Hunchback is a myth created by the OP, btw. You can keep spamming the forum with Hunchie propaganda all you want, Bishop. You're basically the only one who still gets good results with them

I have to disagree, he is not the only one.

[Rossario x Vampire]

mindwarp, on 30 November 2014 - 03:30 AM, said:

The 45t Ice Ferret gets to stack up against the Blackjack, Vindicator and Cicada. It's easily better than the VND and CDA, and probably still a bit better than a BJ.

Nova 50t - IS competitor Hunchback, Centurion, Trebuchet and soon Enforcer. Yeah, the Nova sucks. Might still be better than a Trenchbucket though.

Stormcrow 55t - IS competitors Griffin, Wolverine, Shadowhawk, Kintaro. The KTO isn't great and loses out to the SCR. The GRF is closer, but still a loser. The WVR and SHD with their quirks are pretty close, or even equal to the SCR. The 55t class is a very efficient weight, and generally makes some of the best designs.

Mad Dog 60t - Still clearly superior to the QKD and DRG, even with their quirks.

Hellbringer 65t - Well, it's broken so we can't really tell. It stacks up against the Jager and Thunderbolt though. It does have the advantage of ECM over both of them.

Summoner 70t - Faces the Cataphract and soon Grasshopper. Well, it can pack a similar loadout to a CTF, and move faster and jump. IS AC's on the CTFs probably make it even though.

Mad Cat 75t - We all know it's the best mech in the game, but for reference it faces the Orion and clearly outclasses it. Also outclasses anything lighter, and anything heavier.



Dire Wolf 100T - Banshee, Highlander, Atlas and King Crab (soon). It's pretty much a wash. The Dire Wolf's lack of mobility balances out it's guns and the Banshee can mount some pretty fearsome loadouts of its own. The HGN is the loser here, but the AS7 stands a fair chance against a DW. The KGC might be a bit better when it arrives.

Let's be objective than...

Ice Ferret mostly compareable with Blackjack, no other. Ventilator are too weak to be compared with anything he is just like Cicada, oversized underspeeded light mech. Blackjack actually are gr8 mech in jis class, only one that can provide some resistance to Clans.

Nova, untill Ghost Heat will be in game are unusable being underclassed just cause PGI are rejected ability of energy boating which is legit in TT. So the problem is - PGI it self.

Ryoken - 55 tons heavy medium assault... yes, assault, mech with best mobility in game which outclasses everything even heavier than Ryoken on 30 tons. Until TimberWub appears.

Loki - equal to by front loaded fire power to the mid-finest IS assaults like WubMaster and Stalker, but, twice mobile, jumpy than anything IS has against.

Summoner - actually not that bad until some idiot decided to nerf C-ERPPC damage frome 15 to 10. Now it's underpowered.

MadCat or TimberWub - the God of War, the Bird of Prey,the Mech of a Century who links together mobility of finest IS medium mechs and fire power of fines 100 tons heavy IS assaults, the main battle mech of Clans. There is just nothing can be brought against from IS side.

Warhawk - since C-ERPPC nerf become an Large Moving Trash.

Direwhale - biggest moving mountain of fire power, yap, it's slow but what can he bring to battlefield outgun a whole lance of Alases.

Highlander - cause you menioned it. Actually this mech is a rip-off which actually need to be send to scrapyard cause PGI done everything to nerf it to basement level. The role of this mech on battlefield is simple: - an obsticle. Not more or less. Just a small procentage of players can do desome on this mech in solo.

So in summary... even with quirks IS still lack of fire power, mobility, resistance. You simply just can't ignore this facts. The only thing which can insta-balance IS and Clans making IS copetitve and Clans back to their supremacy is... NERF of Ghost Heat.
But instead of this PGI does it wrong, balances weapons. In result we can breefly say: - RIP C-ERPPC, RIP ERLL's and C-ERLL's, RIP PPC, RIP C-AC/UACs, RIP IS AC's. RIP JUMPJET's RIP MWO.

[Rossario x Vampire]

Michael Abt, on 30 November 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

I have to disagree, he is not the only one.

ROFL to this... even child knows that Hunchy with taken-off right torso is just an dead weight to his team.

[MrZakalwe]

Stefka Kerensky, on 30 November 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

Hi Bishop, just found this thread.
Just to say what maybe you already know by me: the pilot means all, mech is relative, it's not so important.
It's not the mech that win the battle but who is piloting it, and this will be particularly true with CW.

"Average" pilots overestimate mechs over their own skills

You miss the point- the same pilot will do better with a better mech and there are better and worse mechs in this game.

Remember the pre quirk awesome vs the pre nerf clans? Yeah between even similar pilots the result was one sided.

Edited by MrZakalwe, 30 November 2014 - 07:06 AM.

[The Boz]

Metus regem, on 29 November 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

Actually, it is the pilots, in that last round of testing the clan pilots were on average of 100-120 elo points higher than the IS pilots, and as many math-hammers had hit that, it was shown a gap of that much should give a 60%/ 65% win rate.

Taking that into account, that would mean that even elo pilots it would be almost 50/50, so balanced.

...it's amazing how you don't ask yourself why Clam pilots seem to have a much higher Elo on average...

[Aresye]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 November 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

While the Clans have: The Timber Wolf (admittedly, the god tier mech in MWO atm), Stormcrow (top tier Medium, though lack of JJs leave room for Shadowhawk, too) and DireWhales.

So...where do the Clan Mechs REALLY stack up vs the IS. If the Server was set Clan vs IS tomorrow, but the TWolf was unavailable, would the results STILL favor the clans? If not, is it the Clans that are stronger, or 1-3 chassis that need addressing? Are Clan Quirks the answer, or relaxing general Clan weapon nerfs, and focusing some specific nerfs on the offending chassis?

So....debate.

It depends on the map, and it depends on the team. The Timberwolf, Stormcrow, and Dire Wolf maintain their god status on maps that favor their play style and longer range.

I wouldn't even classify the Timberwolf as being that OP anymore. The multiple changes to Clan weapons, JJ, and penalties has helped bring it more in line with other mechs. Granted, it's STILL the best heavy, but I'd rather see 3 Timberwolves on the other team than 3 medium pulse Thunderbolts that can nearly take out an entire side torso and half my weapons with 1 shot.

I don't think we'll get an accurate representation of where balance is at until hit detection is fixed, because lately it's been absolutely terrible. The game seems to register big hits with SRMs and IS pulse lasers better than standard Clan lasers and pulse lasers, with a lot of damage being transferred to other components and/or not registering at all.

[Metus regem]

The Boz, on 30 November 2014 - 07:11 AM, said:

...it's amazing how you don't ask yourself why Clam pilots seem to have a much higher Elo on average...

I sure don't.

At the same time, I do not know the method that they used for the MM for the couple of hours they ran that test for. For all we know they could have had new guys facing the Lord's or the 228, you know competitive players? I know I don't do well when compared to comp players.

And my win rate against IS mechs is about 50/50... Then again I do not pilot Timber Wolves, Storm Crows or Dire Wolves. I am usually found in a Mad Dog, Hell Bringer, Adder, Summoner or War Hawk.

[Rossario x Vampire]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 November 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

So...where do the Clan Mechs REALLY stack up vs the IS. If the Server was set Clan vs IS tomorrow, but the TWolf was unavailable, would the results STILL favor the clans? If not, is it the Clans that are stronger, or 1-3 chassis that need addressing? Are Clan Quirks the answer, or relaxing general Clan weapon nerfs, and focusing some specific nerfs on the offending chassis?

So....debate.

Easy and short describe of an balance in game: - Thanx God I'm driving an Clan mech!

[Bishop Steiner]

Michael Abt, on 30 November 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

I have to disagree, he is not the only one.

I think there are 2-3 of us, at least who would dispute that "myth". I think we need to form a drop team of 4Gs and go rectally probe a bunch of non-believing heretics.

[Bishop Steiner]

CorditeJunkie, on 30 November 2014 - 04:15 AM, said:

The OP is stupid because on what grounds would you not include the TimberWolf when comparing IS against Clan?the only reason you would exclude it would be if it was removed from the game.The OP makes no sense wanting to exclude the the inferred "God Tier mech" its ludicrous.
Clan have better alfa and sustained damage in general across all mech's where as IS get ragtag scatter shot of good and bad characteristics.if you put 4xDire,4xTimber and any selection of the rest clan is in great shape to wreck face,they also have better symmetry and weapon group cinergy which is a value you can't quantify.

OP is "stupid" because it makes a point. Go look up "statistical outliers" and educate yourself.

You do not base findings, or make determinations on Outliers. But thanks for demonstrating your ignorance.
Also in regards to "stoopid"?. It's "alpha", not alfa. Learn to spell, please before attempting to claim intellectual superiority.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 30 November 2014 - 07:33 AM.

[Michael Abt]

Rossario x Vampire, on 30 November 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

ROFL to this... even child knows that Hunchy with taken-off right torso is just an dead weight to his team.

You never fought me so your words are forgiven. Maybe we drop on different teams one day, and then i'll show you what my signature is all about.

[Bishop Steiner]

mindwarp, on 30 November 2014 - 03:30 AM, said:

With community warfare coming, and tonnage limits, you can't just compare light to light, medium to medium etc. You have to compare tonnage to tonnage.

Mist Lynx 25t - IS competitors Locust and Commando. LCT and COM are faster, but lack JJ and are squishier with their XL engines. Mist Lynx has JJ, and clan weapons. The ECM Commando probably has more utility, but the Lynx is superior to all the other COM's. LCT vs Lynx comes down to pilot skill and terrain.

Kit Fox 30t - IS competitors Spider. SDR's combination of hitboxes, speed and ECM wins. Kit Fox probably has more utility though since it can pack NARC and triple AMS. Not every CW match is going to be between top ELO teams.

Adder 35t - IS competitors Jenner, Firestarter, Raven and soon Panther. The Adder's role as a fire support light hurts it. It'll be better than the Panther - packing twice the firepower of the IS mech in the same role, but it clearly loses out to the JR7, FS9 and RVN.

The 45t Ice Ferret gets to stack up against the Blackjack, Vindicator and Cicada. It's easily better than the VND and CDA, and probably still a bit better than a BJ.

Nova 50t - IS competitor Hunchback, Centurion, Trebuchet and soon Enforcer. Yeah, the Nova sucks. Might still be better than a Trenchbucket though.

Stormcrow 55t - IS competitors Griffin, Wolverine, Shadowhawk, Kintaro. The KTO isn't great and loses out to the SCR. The GRF is closer, but still a loser. The WVR and SHD with their quirks are pretty close, or even equal to the SCR. The 55t class is a very efficient weight, and generally makes some of the best designs.

Mad Dog 60t - Still clearly superior to the QKD and DRG, even with their quirks.

Hellbringer 65t - Well, it's broken so we can't really tell. It stacks up against the Jager and Thunderbolt though. It does have the advantage of ECM over both of them.

Summoner 70t - Faces the Cataphract and soon Grasshopper. Well, it can pack a similar loadout to a CTF, and move faster and jump. IS AC's on the CTFs probably make it even though.

Mad Cat 75t - We all know it's the best mech in the game, but for reference it faces the Orion and clearly outclasses it. Also outclasses anything lighter, and anything heavier.

Warhawk 85t - Awesomes, Victors, Battlemasters, Stalkers and Zeus's (soon). AWS and BLR are outclassed easily, Victors are about equal and Stalkers slightly superior. A valid argument could be made saying the VTR was superior with IS Ac's and that the Stalker was slightly weaker. Not much in it either way.

Dire Wolf 100T - Banshee, Highlander, Atlas and King Crab (soon). It's pretty much a wash. The Dire Wolf's lack of mobility balances out it's guns and the Banshee can mount some pretty fearsome loadouts of its own. The HGN is the loser here, but the AS7 stands a fair chance against a DW. The KGC might be a bit better when it arrives.

The Summoner and Adder (And overall the Ice Ferret and Mist Lynx) also acutely suffer from lack of Hardpoints to allow loadout diversity. Summoner has the tonnage, but not the hardpoints to really use them, compared to the CTF.

Rad Hanzo, on 30 November 2014 - 03:37 AM, said:

In sum total IS overpowers clan at the moment because quirks .
Let those settle in the IS community, tweak em till halfways acceptable then head onwards for the clan quirk pass and see how things pan out then .

No news here, OP could have asked earlier since THIS is quite strikingly noticeable .

judging by the forums and some of the posts on this thread, I would say it is indeed news to many. I wonder if they know there has been some unpleasantness in the Middle East and a bit of tension in a place called Fergusson, etc, to? Because I would wager not..... or they believe some Fox News spin on them, IDK.