87 replies to this topic

[CaveMan]

mcgrunt, on 22 November 2011 - 10:47 PM, said:

Oh I get it, you just aim and shoot...hmm...very clever.

Yep, that's the way it works. Unless one of the recent mektek updates took away the fact that leading your shots will make them hit. Particularly in MW4 which is heavily biased towards big tonnage. No flamebait required.

[mcgrunt]

CaveMan, on 22 November 2011 - 10:59 PM, said:

Yep, that's the way it works. Unless one of the recent mektek updates took away the fact that leading your shots will make them hit. Particularly in MW4 which is heavily biased towards big tonnage. No flamebait required.

Minor detail. You seem to forget that in this type of situation (A fast small mech running around the feet of an Assault mech), the smaller faster mech will always be leading you (the Assault mech), not the other way around as you are trying to imply. The Assault mech simply can not turn fast enough, to get a lead and score a direct hit. Of course you may get lucky very rarely.

Any ho, your word against mine, and I prefer mine.

[Haeso]

Your assumption is that you can get close to the assault mech, it's one on one, and there's nothing for the assault mech to put it's back to.

Those are some pretty big assumptions.

[Barbaric Soul]

You guys/girls want to know how a slow assault mech can take down a fast agile light mech? It's called knowing how to use a mech. I'll be happy to demostrate it for any one of you. All you have to do is DL/install the free version of MW4 and accept my invite to a friendly little game. But I'll explain it as best as I can here.
Light mech start circling me in a assault mech. Lt mech goes around my right side circling behind me. I don't try to match the lt mechs speed. I hit full reverse and spin left. When I get reticle on target which will happen, I fire. Granted, I'm not 100% acurate, but I am acurate enough that that lt mech won't stand a ice cubes chance in hades against me.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

Atlas + Longtom = dead flea not the most practicle solution but effective none the less

[Barbaric Soul]

I don't use long toms to kill light mechs, too much friendly fire damage happens that way. I use direct fire weapons. Here's alittle diagram of what I do. Excuse my lack of skills with Word.
http://img.techpowerup.org/111123/68907=70.jpg 

[Barbaric Soul]

I don't use long toms to kill light mechs, too much friendly fire damage happens that way. I use direct fire weapons. Here's alittle diagram of what I do. Excuse my lack of skills with Word.</p>

[Barbaric Soul]

sorry for the double post, something happened there, not sure what though.

[KnowBuddy]

UncleKulikov, on 22 November 2011 - 09:54 PM, said:

The issue mentioned wasn't that it was hard to hit the flea, but that it couldn't once the flea got to point blank range. That is unacceptable. There shouldn't be a situation where a mech cannot respond to an enemy because of x/y axis.

Why not? If your turning rate is slower than an opponent's ability to run around you and turn to keep you in their sights, then you absolutely should not be able to respond by trying to out-turn a faster mech. 'Mech speed, 'mech turning rate, torso twist rate, and weapon min/max ranges interact to define many combinations of situations in which a 'mech cannot respond to an enemy. Managing these situations is the root of the gameplay, complaining about them is foolish.

The issue I responded to is that a Flea can utilize differences in speed and turning rates to effectively combat an Atlas. My point was that this is absolutely acceptable, and even desirable, because otherwise only assault mechs are viable (something that has been stated will not be the case in MWO). The argument that it's unacceptable completely disregards the fact that in order to get into that situation, the Flea has to successfully approach the Atlas (either using speed or stealth strategies), during which time it's extremely vulnerable to the superior firepower of the Atlas, which should not be operating alone anyway.

Tactical choices are absolutely valid. In no uncertain terms, MWO should not (and will not, based on what I've read so far) be balanced to allow players to get away with poor performance (for example failing to detect/destroy a light mech before it can approach to utilize an Assault mech's poor turning rate) or making poor tactical choices (such as rushing headlong into the enemy lines without the support of their lance/company mates).

Complaining that it's possible for a Light 'mech to damage or destroy an Assault 'mech is ridiculous. Furthermore, battles are not successions of duels (particularly in this setting, both place and time-period). Balancing based on 1v1 matches is highly unlikely. Don't complain about your choices not working... maybe the problem is your lack of adaptability rather than the mechanics of the activity you're trying to bend to your own playstyle.

[Traejun DiSanctis]

Anything is possible. Even a Flea taking down an Atlas. It could happen without a doubt.

That said, it's not likely. The Flea would need to be perfectly piloted. One mistake, one wide turn, one missed key strike - and it's over.

[Deliverator]

I love that he is complaining that the atlas not being able to shoot between its' legs is an "exploit" ... its not an exploit its a game mechanic! Take a 100 ton mech and lean it over far enough to shoot through its legs, see where it ends up. Believe you me, most of its weight is NOT in its legs. The only reason HUMANS are able to stick their head between their legs is because we automatically compensate. Mechs don't have the same level of articulation the human body has, thus they cannot compensate, thus they would land on their head. Just try putting your head between your legs without shifting your weight to your heels and sticking your butt out. Might want to put a pillow on the floor first though.

[SMDMadCow]

Well, the Atlas should be able to aim down and at least target the Flea with it's arm mounted weapons.

[Mr Jorgenson]

In mech assault I once killed three Ragnarök and two Atlases with a single puma.
That's my mech of choice in that game.
I'm highly skilled with both light and medium class mechs.

[fearfactory]

I think a lot of problems come from how players perceive things.

In BattleTech, bigger is not necessarily better. Lights and mediums are simply more available, flexible and much easier to supply, transport and maintain which makes them the most common units on the battlefield. Plus, they have maneuverability that bigger machines simply lack. What good is all that firepower if you can't get it to where you need it? This is something MechWarrior IV simply screwed up by making Assault spam so damn powerful. MekTek didn't help much with that either by bumping up the amount of armor you can pack on Assaults too.

If the game is still set in 3015 lights and mediums are the most common units on the field. Your Centurions, Whitworths, Hermes II's, Hunchbacks, Clints, Jenners, Javelins, Commandos, etc were all common and the first things green warriors were put in. Heavies and assaults were specialized (Catapult, JagerMech, Quickdraw), general use command machines (Orion, Cyclops, Zeus), or simply powerhouses (Awesome, Atlas) that were given to more trusted regulars or veterans.

[Mr Jorgenson]

fearfactory, on 24 November 2011 - 10:36 AM, said:

I think a lot of problems come from how players perceive things.

In BattleTech, bigger is not necessarily better. Lights and mediums are simply more available, flexible and much easier to supply, transport and maintain which makes them the most common units on the battlefield. Plus, they have maneuverability that bigger machines simply lack. What good is all that firepower if you can't get it to where you need it? This is something MechWarrior IV simply screwed up by making Assault spam so damn powerful. MekTek didn't help much with that either by bumping up the amount of armor you can pack on Assaults too.

If the game is still set in 3015 lights and mediums are the most common units on the field. Your Centurions, Whitworths, Hermes II's, Hunchbacks, Clints, Jenners, Javelins, Commandos, etc were all common and the first things green warriors were put in. Heavies and assaults were specialized (Catapult, JagerMech, Quickdraw), general use command machines (Orion, Cyclops, Zeus), or simply powerhouses (Awesome, Atlas) that were given to more trusted regulars or veterans.

Yes, back when I played Mech Commander 2 I think they balanced the classes quite well, surprisingly well. And it always took a better pilot in those mechs to make it count.

[KageRyuu]

[EDMW]CSN, on 22 November 2011 - 09:15 PM, said:

I relish at the idea of light mechs going 8/12 doing drop kicks on assaults.
When the assault goes down, let's play stomp the assault.

To balance assault physical punch and kick power, maybe they can only swing once every 8 seconds while lights have a melee cool down of only 2 seconds. Mediums 4 and Heavies 6.

If a light tried to drop kick an assault it would probably wind up breaking one of it's hip/leg actuators as it fell and wind up crippled and prone next to a furious and much heavier mech. A situation you don't want to be in.

[KageRyuu]

KnowBuddy, on 23 November 2011 - 09:39 AM, said:

Complaining that it's possible for a Light 'mech to damage or destroy an Assault 'mech is ridiculous. Furthermore, battles are not successions of duels (particularly in this setting, both place and time-period). Balancing based on 1v1 matches is highly unlikely. Don't complain about your choices not working... maybe the problem is your lack of adaptability rather than the mechanics of the activity you're trying to bend to your own playstyle.

Two things, first:

The complaint which you quoted than ignored was about an exploit involving the typical poor declination of most assault mechs, the relative small stature of small mechs, the lack of collision physics between mechs in most if not all MW games, and the absence of jump jets or other simular special movement devices on most if not all assault class mechs.

Secondly:

Honorable clan warfare according to the rules of Zellbrigen is nothing but a succession of one on one duels, with the sole exception being Elementals who fight together as a point, which is a team of 5 elementals.

[Saranpaa]

Arimo J Lee, on 24 November 2011 - 10:35 AM, said:

In mech assault I once killed three Ragnarök and two Atlases with a single puma.
That's my mech of choice in that game.
I'm highly skilled with both light and medium class mechs.

No-one is interested.

[Corsair114]

In MW4:Mercs assault 'mechs have an easy solution for a lightweight that tucks right up under it. It's called the "Look Down" button. If the light is in the same plane as you, it's pretty much a guaranteed goner. If your big-bad assault 'mech has jump jets, it's even more awesome.

[KnowBuddy]

KageRyuu, on 27 November 2011 - 02:14 AM, said:

Two things, first:

The complaint which you quoted than ignored was about an exploit involving the typical poor declination of most assault mechs, the relative small stature of small mechs, the lack of collision physics between mechs in most if not all MW games, and the absence of jump jets or other simular special movement devices on most if not all assault class mechs.

Secondly:

Honorable clan warfare according to the rules of Zellbrigen is nothing but a succession of one on one duels, with the sole exception being Elementals who fight together as a point, which is a team of 5 elementals.

Several points:

• I didn't "then ignore" anything.
  
• I understand that small stature, poor declination, lack of collision physics, and lack of jump jets on Assault 'mechs have combined in past MW games to create a situation in which it was technically impossible for an Assault to target a Light 'mech standing very close. My point was that this is the result of design decisions and is not in and of itself a significant problem. Yes, collision physics would be great and would probably vastly reduce the attractiveness of standing at the feet of an Atlas (but then again might bring about some odd tactics like using superfast light 'mechs exclusively for DFA purposes). Limitations of Assault 'mechs versus Light 'mechs make sense in the BTU, even though the (intended or coincidental) implementation of such limitations in past MW games may have left a bad taste in your mouth.
  
• I know what Zellbrigen is. I was attempting to convey by my statement that at the time of launch (pre-Clan Invasion) it is unlikely in my opinion that Zellbrigen will be part of the design implementation of MWO because it does not make gameplay sense for a multiplayer game on the scale which is being attempted. There may be some consideration for one-on-one duels, but I doubt that it will be a major factor in the design or balancing of MWO. All information released to date has emphasized roles and team-based tactical play, which indicates that one-on-one balance is unlikely to be of high priority.