444 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

This should be a fun debate, since I fully expect 50% of answers to be kneejerk based off the title without bothering to read the OP.

But I think it is a merited discussion, ATM. We keep hearing "DoA" QQ after EVERY new Clan Mech released, lately. Ice Ferret? Dorky looking, not enough guns, DoA. Mist Lynx? Too slow, Popeye arms, DoA. Hellbringer? Blackhole inspired CT, sucks in shots from ANY angle, DoA.

Mind you, I feel there to be a bit of Hyperbole, but it is what it is. As for Wave 1? Kit Fox? Middle of the pack Light? The Badder? No-Va? Suckoner? Peace Dove? ALL middle of the pack in their weight categories, or WORSE, even compared to IS mechs. The Mad Dog ain't bad...... but it is a poor man's Timberwolf.

Now IS Mechs are quirked, and you have Chaingun Dragons, Autoshotty Centys, Jackhammer HBKs, the Partyback just turned into a full blown rave, Dakka and PPC/Laser spam, etc.

While the Clans have: The Timber Wolf (admittedly, the god tier mech in MWO atm), Stormcrow (top tier Medium, though lack of JJs leave room for Shadowhawk, too) and DireWhales.

So...where do the Clan Mechs REALLY stack up vs the IS. If the Server was set Clan vs IS tomorrow, but the TWolf was unavailable, would the results STILL favor the clans? If not, is it the Clans that are stronger, or 1-3 chassis that need addressing? Are Clan Quirks the answer, or relaxing general Clan weapon nerfs, and focusing some specific nerfs on the offending chassis?

So....debate.

[Brody319]

Stormcrow, Timberwolf, and Direwhale pretty much outclass everything in their weight class. Without them, the other clan mechs are good or average they out shine some IS mechs and are worse than others.

[Krivvan]

The problem is that it doesn't matter whatsoever as long as you are able to just take Timbers, Dires, and Stormcrows. How IS vs. Clan need to be compared is their best versus each other. Any other arbitrary comparison is pointless.

[Tristan Winter]

TL;DR

Yes! No! What was the question? Clans are OP!

[Y E O N N E]

In b4 Gyrok and his evangelism proclaiming Clan 'Mechs to be under-powered!

The Inner Sphere have a few chassis that perform really well with a small set of builds and under relaxed playing conditions. However, those 'Mechs are still uncomptetitive because anybody who is a decent shot can kill them in one or two strikes. Their heat dissipation is still garbage compared to Clans, so once they are hot, they are hot. They are almost all slower than the Clans for the level of armor and up-front firepower they carry and, if they aren't, then they are far squishier.

And yes, if the Timberwolf were unavailable, then it would still favor the Clans. Why? Because it's not the Timberwolves that carry, it's the fraggin' Storm Crows.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 29 November 2014 - 02:19 PM.

[Torgun]

If both sides only brought their top mechs of each weightclass I'd say 3 out of 4 weightclasses belongs to Clans still, while IS has a clear edge for light weightclass. Overall Clans have quite a few weak mechs though, Suckoner is rather aptly named from personal experience, and Clan lights are kinda par or subpar from what I've seen. A Clan quirkpass is needed to help these mechs so we won't keep seeing SCR, TW and DW all the time for Clan mechs. IS does need a better top medium, heavy or assault mech. Because Victors with hoverjets is most certainly not it.

[Ultimax]

Krivvan, on 29 November 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

The problem is that it doesn't matter whatsoever as long as you are able to just take Timbers, Dires, and Stormcrows. How IS vs. Clan need to be compared is their best versus each other. Any other arbitrary comparison is pointless.

In CW teams will often need to dip into some of the other mechs due to tonnage limits - so it is relevant.

I'm sure some will run 4x SCRs, but I'm not convinced that's the best plan either.

It's a top tier medium mech, it's still a medium mech though.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 29 November 2014 - 02:23 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

The disparity in effectiveness is significantly bigger among light mechs than the other weight classes. Although Storm Crows do have a pretty big advantage over IS mechs. But if you put 4 Embers and Jenners up against 4 Clan light mechs, it won't even be fun to watch.

The Jackhammer Hunchback is a myth created by the OP, btw. You can keep spamming the forum with Hunchie propaganda all you want, Bishop. You're basically the only one who still gets good results with them

[Mark Brandhauber]

I find that the mist lynx, warhawk, direwolf, mad dog, madcat and stormcrow to all be competitive in their weightclass

[Bishop Steiner]

Alistair Winter, on 29 November 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

The disparity in effectiveness is significantly bigger among light mechs than the other weight classes. Although Storm Crows do have a pretty big advantage over IS mechs. But if you put 4 Embers and Jenners up against 4 Clan light mechs, it won't even be fun to watch.

The Jackhammer Hunchback is a myth created by the OP, btw. You can keep spamming the forum with Hunchie propaganda all you want, Bishop. You're basically the only one who still gets good results with them

Ah you don't see the number of Clanners QQing about the rapid fire ac20! I drop with them, and it's honestly pretty delicious.

But if I am for some reason, "the last Hunchback", I'll carry that title gladly! And the last lil Vindicator! Not my fault most people don't know how to Medium...unless it's using a stormcrow with it's busted hitbox/move animation!

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 November 2014 - 02:29 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Without the timber clans would die in seconds. Dires used to be good but with all the heat nerfs tons od weapons dont matter. They get cored in seconds and are a primsry target for lrms becuase almost everyone missle hits it. Crows are good because of the broken hitboxes.

[BourbonFaucet]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 November 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

But I think it is a merited discussion, ATM. We keep hearing "DoA" QQ after EVERY new Clan Mech released, lately. Ice Ferret? Dorky looking, not enough guns, DoA. Mist Lynx? Too slow, Popeye arms, DoA. Hellbringer? Blackhole inspired CT, sucks in shots from ANY angle, DoA.

So....debate.

All right Bishop, I'll bite.

First of all, the "Dead On Arrival" QQ is simply because the 'mech, on paper, does not look like metanerd easymode, or in simpler terms, an "I win" button. The people screaming Dead On Arrival take no effort into looking into the entertainment value of the unit, or the insane builds you could pull off with it, they just want to know if hopping into that particular chassis will mean an easier, surefire path to victory. What a load of crap in a game where half the fun is piloting a new ride with a weapons loadout you want.

Second, in terms of clan balance, at this time, I'm fairly happy with how it is. It would be nice to fix the hitbox problems in game right now so that rear armor became more important on the Timberwolf, and the Hellbringer didn't feel like it was, as you put it, a CT black hole.

I own the masakari pack, and can say I wasn't really too happy with all the nerfs, but I understand why they're there, and you can still cream IS 'mechs one on one. However, in a team setting, they're far more counter able, as they should be.

So, to answer your main question, if we fix the hitboxes and make a few tweaks here and there with balance, we should be fine, but that's only my opinion.

[Myke Pantera]

I think you summed it up pretty good already Bishop. Quirks helped to level out the differences in IS mech capabilities, but the best clan mechs are still better than the best IS mechs. IS still rules the light bracket but Clan XL, Clan weapon range and weight still rock. The difference between the best an worst clan mechs is huge though. So the AVG clan mech isn't better, but ppl tend to use the best chassis when they play to win, so in a serious Clan vs IS battle clans are equipped better, in a just for fun battle it might be roughly balanced.

Edited by Myke Pantera, 29 November 2014 - 02:38 PM.

[Moonlander]

plz nerf

[Bishop Steiner]

One thing I do know, clan energy weapons, in general are superior, though beam duration can hurt hit and run mechs some (I personally feel IS MPL are great even with range because of the super fast pulse). So that does add some balance back (as does their high heat)

LRMs are a toss up, because while lighter, their stream fire is far easier to defend/evade. Streaks, larger a toss up because the larger racks have insanely long cool downs.

Clan SRMs are straight across the board superior, as is the ER PPC (though there is no "low" heat standard PPC option) and Gauss. Every bit as effective as IS counters,with no drawbacks, for less weight. Overall, the LB-X too, though "superior" and LB-X" are ...kinda an oxymoron. C-ERPPC and Gauss should at least have longer cooldowns to counter their weight savings. Possibly the same with the rest.

But overall, clan UACs and ACs are straight inferior in every sense. If you ask me do I want a Clan UAC20 on my HBK-4G, or an IS ac20, I would tell you to get that clan garbage away from my mech now, or


whereas in TT I would beg for a Clan AC.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 November 2014 - 02:40 PM.

[luxebo]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 November 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

The debate.

Timber Wolf vs Cataphract/Victor, who wins?

Dire Wolf vs Atlas DDC/S, who wins?

Stormcrow vs Griffin/Shadow Hawk, who wins?

All other Clan mechs need some quirks too, which WILL be coming. IS mechs will have more refined quirks. Therefore, IS vs Clans are basically dependent on the topish mechs in the game and how many each side has. Clanners are way too dependent of a few mechs, and IS mechs are too dependent on a few mechs TOO. No one realizes it, but most quirked mechs are still quite useless in a lot of ways. Look at metamechs page. Not many changes even with quirks.

[Mcgral18]

Honestly, CW is going to make me sad. I won't be able to use my best mechs. No WubShee, no ThunderWub, no decent lights.

TimberGods and DoomCrows will be good performers, and once ...these

(Arm is CT?!) are dealt with, the JesusBox Bringer should be alright.
http://mwomercs.com/...80#entry3950100


I'm not a fan of Whales, but I suppose they are alright.

Clams run hot, but are longer ranged. I know I prefer getting close and Wubbing things...but Clams don't do that very well with their 150% heat Wubbers.


Both factions have strong chassis. Clams seem to have both top and bottom tiers, IS has a couple top, some second, and some not so great.

A second quirk pass, and a Clam quirk pass, might even that out.

[Bishop Steiner]

luxebo, on 29 November 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

Timber Wolf vs Cataphract/Victor, who wins?

Dire Wolf vs Atlas DDC/S, who wins?

Stormcrow vs Griffin/Shadow Hawk, who wins?

All other Clan mechs need some quirks too, which WILL be coming. IS mechs will have more refined quirks. Therefore, IS vs Clans are basically dependent on the topish mechs in the game and how many each side has. Clanners are way too dependent of a few mechs, and IS mechs are too dependent on a few mechs TOO. No one realizes it, but most quirked mechs are still quite useless in a lot of ways. Look at metamechs page. Not many changes even with quirks.

and that's sort of the point...we don't want a massive bell curve, we need the curve flattened so that all chassis are more useful, instead of such an obvious "meta".

[Rossario x Vampire]

Probably OP is unaware that most of IS mechs are insta-nerfed by adding some silly stuff like some "joints" in some body parts and can't even use nearly equivalent tonnage of fire power as clans. And after JJ's nerf IS mechs are become an just random walking garbage with random amount of hardpoints.

I'm not trying to compare MadCat with IS heavies cause he is uncompareable. Clear 40+ tons of weapons equal to top IS assault moving "in stock" 81kmph is just nothing to compare. "Suckoner" is the only fast moving "zombie" except Tunderwub-5SS, but "Suckoner" can fly, TDR can't. Mobility does matter. C-LRM20 despite of "shovering" throw also is nearly twice precisle than LRM20. There is just no IS assault mech who can "frontload" more than 52 damage superfiring. What about clans? Yes, "eye" can! Just SCR-PRIME/2C can mount nearly 70+ "frontloaded" weapons superfiring and do 3xsemi-alpha before shotdown, which means 210 damage pinpoint. Does any IS heavy or assault can do this, and I'm not talking about mediums.

Oh poor clan lights. Especially "badder" ot "OP-Fox". 2, 3 or 4x C-LPL with each 13 damage and range 1200 metres allow ya to camp "a *****" or "camp-tart" anything beeing safe from LURM's. You didn't know? Oh dear... might be you just don't have a Clan-Mech that's why you make such adorable dumb topics.

Clan mechs are still 2/3 OP compare to IS mechs. But, if you don't know how to cook them, leave them alone.

P.S. There is no more inferrior thing than SCR-PRIME with 5xC-SPL+2xC-LPL which can whipe any brawl azz. Fo-Sho.

Edited by Rossario x Vampire, 29 November 2014 - 02:59 PM.

[Johnny Slam]

DEBATE: CURRENTLY, ARE THE IS MECHS, IN TOTAL, SUPERIOR TO CLAN MECHS?


Nope.