156 replies to this topic

[EvilCow]

It is a known fact that clan players are more skilled (source: clan forumers) so in order to achieve faction balance some more nerfs might be necessary.

[Molossian Dog]

You are a very evil bovine.

o7

[MeiSooHaityu]

Molossian Dog, on 04 December 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

Isn´t it quite amusing that I´m tempted to accuse you of the same? Blinders.
I didn´t say a word about a clan tech wide nerf.

The part you were missing or ignoring was that the quirk pass you speak about is all about improving the underachievers.
I was talking about nerfing the overachievers.

After some serious bug fixes. Which might go a long way of bringing the overachievers in line.

If its bugs I agree 100%. I just never think of a bug fix as a nerf I suppose. We know the Timber Wolf has borked hit detection with JJs and I "hear" that the Stormcrow has buggy hitboxes. They should be corrected (and that may help some).

Maybe I'm just not one to talk. I have a Timber Wolf Prime and it is good. I like the speed of the torso twist more than anything. Its acceleration and deceleration is where it feels its weight.

I just don't see the whole ungodly OP thing though. It is my 5th best performing mech behind the Raven 3L, Hunchback 4G, Centurion AH and ShadowHawk 2H (using KDR stats). So to me it is a good mech (my AVG KDR is 1.45 and the Timby is 1.62), it isn't the crazy OP performance of my old Boom Jager (KDR 2.35) or my Thunderbolt 5SS (currently 1.54 but might hit 2 before it's quirks get nerfed).

Just my experiences aren't lining up with what people claim, so if I say to buff clans with a quirk pass to get them close to the Timber Wolf before a nerf, I'm just seeing making underachieverd good before an adjustment, not seeing them made GODLY before an adjustment.

[Butane9000]

I feel like it'd be more fair if the IS had limited critical slots for hard points. Such as this:


The way the above works is that the JM6-A is supposed to have missile hard points. What this set up does is restrict the Ballistics to being a maximum of a UAC5 and not a LBX10 or greater. When I first thought of this I also figured in that these critical slots for weapons could be taken up by FF and Endo slots thus reducing your option for weaponry.

What this also does is creates important differences between chassis variants and creating roles for each. I designed this well over a year ago when we were debating the current in game systems in open beta. It's a combination of MWO hard point systems with MW4 limited space.

[mad kat]

EvilCow, on 04 December 2014 - 05:44 AM, said:

It is a known fact that clan players are more skilled (source: clan forumers) so in order to achieve faction balance some more nerfs might be necessary.

My internet sarcasm detector is twitching.

In my experience their the worst players.

Edited by mad kat, 04 December 2014 - 06:25 AM.

[The Boz]

MeiSooHaityu, on 04 December 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

Maybe I'm just not one to talk. I have a Timber Wolf Prime and it is good. I like the speed of the torso twist more than anything. Its acceleration and deceleration is where it feels its weight.

Is the acceleration and deceleration some sort of a unique negative quirk of the TBR? Buy a 75t IS mech, and tell me it doesn't feel the weight.

MeiSooHaityu, on 04 December 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

Just my experiences aren't lining up with what people claim, so if I say to buff clans with a quirk pass to get them close to the Timber Wolf before a nerf, I'm just seeing making underachieverd good before an adjustment, not seeing them made GODLY before an adjustment.

You do realize that, outside of 150+ kph lights, every single Clam underachiever is, at worst, Tier 2, right? About half IS mechs in each tier are still T3 or more. You do get that, right?
If you do not agree with this, please tell me which non-Light Clan mech is currently the worst Clam there is.

[bluepiglet]

mad kat, on 04 December 2014 - 06:24 AM, said:

My internet sarcasm detector is twitching.

In my experience their the worst players.

Good whiners with much time spent on the forum though.

Edited by bluepiglet, 04 December 2014 - 06:56 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

The Boz, on 04 December 2014 - 06:42 AM, said:

Is the acceleration and deceleration some sort of a unique negative quirk of the TBR? Buy a 75t IS mech, and tell me it doesn't feel the weight.


You do realize that, outside of 150+ kph lights, every single Clam underachiever is, at worst, Tier 2, right? About half IS mechs in each tier are still T3 or more. You do get that, right?
If you do not agree with this, please tell me which non-Light Clan mech is currently the worst Clam there is.

Boy Boz, you just love to be confrontational with me on the forums.

1st point. No the Timber Wolf's acceleration and deceleration isn't abnormal for 75tons. Many were saying it is faster like lighter heavies. Maybe its speed is similar, but accel and decel felt laggier. My Cat K2 does 80kph and it seems to accel and decel quicker (because it is 10 tons lighter). I wasn't really trying to make a point with that specific statement, just general observation.

2nd point. Summoner (in performance anyway). Maybe the JJs technically keep it out of tier 3 territory.

Maybe a bit of Nova. I feel the Warhawk is better than some give it credit for.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 04 December 2014 - 07:03 AM.

[FupDup]

Most sensible people recognize that not all Clan Gundams are created equal, so they don't ask for nerfs to all of the Gundams. They only ask for some reductions for certain specific robots, particularly the "Holy Trinity" that lead their respective weight classes.

There are also a few Clan transformers that are bad, particularly the lights. Those ones could actually use buffs. Some others like the No-Va, Suckoner, Mad Dawg, Ice Weasel, and Peacedove could use some more modest nudges.


This is why it's completely stupid to try to argue from a perspective an entire faction, because not every mech in each faction is created equal. Not all Clan mechs are good, not all Clan mechs are bad. Not all IS mechs are good, not all IS mechs are bad. This is about INDIVIDUAL UNITS, not entire factions. We can't try to balance whole factions in one swoop unless we manage to make all of their robots have roughly equal viability...which we are a long way from achieving.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

TamerSA, on 03 December 2014 - 11:52 PM, said:

Ok, before you jump on me I want to state that this is a very honest and serious question coming from a below average player who doesn't bother to number crunch or meta.

Even with all of my noobness, simply observing and experiencing the game itself makes me wonder why there is such an outcry to nerf Clans or make teams 12 v 10 or whatever the latest trend is.

There are really only a handful of good Clan mechs. To my account the Dire Wolf and Timber Wolf are the most notable of those mechs. The rest are basically outperformed by an IS same weight variant.

Clan ballistics feel sub-par compared to most IS equivalents. Again, I am not a good player at all, however I immediately notice the difference in impact between carrying an IS AC20 vs a Clan AC20. There is simply more of a punch.

Finally, so far all of the Wave 2 Clan mechs have been negligible in this debate. Even the Hellbringer (which I love) only brings ECM in a heavy to the table. The hitboxes make me think of the old Awesome school bus debate. There is a lot of CT on it to hit.

So now my question again is honestly... why the witch hunt on Clan mechs? If anything, I feel they have been down-balanced from their lore glory to the point where they equal IS mechs instead of surpass them. Which I understand is needed for an online real-time game that is not governed by TT engagement rules.

The arguments pretty much goes like this:

Three specific mechs are frequently used for meta (Dire Wolf, Timber Wolf, Stormcrow)
Dire Wolf, Timber Wolf, and Stormcrow are Clan mechs.
Therefore, all Clan Mechs are overpowered.

Dire Wolf, Timber Wolf, and Stormcrow are too good and similar builds are used too frequently.
These builds can ignore initial clan weapon negatives and exploit benefits.
Therefore, nerf all clan weapons by decreasing all beneficial advantages clan mechs should have (range, damage, dps) and increase all negative disadvantages (heat, Time on Target/burn time, cooldown) in the name of balance.

Inner Sphere mechs are outclassed by Clan Mechs
New IS players need balanced because they are less experienced players on average than those who pilot Clan mechs (ELO findings, debates, ect).
Therefore, buff the majority of Inner Sphere mechs from the start to make all IS players equal to the assumed experienced clan pilots.

Valid arguments, but not sound ones.

Rather than addressing specific mechs, or more notably, specific combinations of omnisections on specific mechs, they've been blanket nerfing and "balancing" the Clan weapons across the board. So while they've somewhat "balanced" specific issues concerning specific mech combos, they've really hindered the viability of the REST of the Clan mechs and build options.

Edited by 00ohDstruct, 04 December 2014 - 07:44 AM.

[-Natural Selection-]

Most logical thing to do it scrap all IS weapons, scrap IS engines, and make all mechs be able to use same setups. Because basically that is how it will end up by the time everything is nerfed, buffed, quirked and penalized.

Everyone wants everything equal and cant compute how to counter strengths and weakness? Make it all the same.

[Andi Nagasia]

i think the main reason is well that their different,
at this time in MWO, IS have Battle-Mechs & Clans Omni-Mechs,

the In-game difference between the two?(Lore Difference is another topic)
Battle-Mechs=
-have locked hard-points, but can upgrade and change all their mech internals,
-this includes Endo, Ferro, Engines, they have Dynamic Armor & Structure,
-the only disadvantage is their locked hard-points, how MWO fixes this?
-they offer a wide selection of Variants with all kinds of Hard-points,
Omni-Mechs=
-they can swap out their hard-points and change them, but they have locked internals
-their upgrades, JJ, and engines are locked, and sometimes certain weapons,
-because of their locked equipment they cant gain much more tonnage,
-in most cases lowering armor is the only way to get more tonnage,

now to compare an IS Battle-Mech vs a Clan Omni-mech
(both will have 250Engine, and go the same speed(81Kph))
a Nova is able to choose between 3 Variants of Omni-pods total,
-NVA-Prime hard-point Max= 12Energy,
-NVA-B hard-point Max= 2Energy, 3Balistic,
-NVA-S hard-point Max= 6Energy, 4Balistic,
(mixing you can get 13Energy or 6Energy+5Balistic but it only has 16freetons)
but its competition the Hunch-Back has 5-6 variants + a Hero Variant,
-HBK-4g hard-point Max= 3Energy, 3Balistic
-HBK-4H hard-point Max= 5Energy, 1Balistic,
-HBK-4J hard-point Max= 6Energy, 2Missile,
-HBK-4P hard-point Max= 9Energy,
-HBK-4SP hard-point Max= 5Energy, 2Missile,
-Grid-Iron hard-point Max= 3Energy, 2Balistic, 1Missile,
(with a STDEngine has 16.5freetons, with a XLEngine has 22.5freetons)

as it looks right now you can see the difference between the two types of mechs,
if weapons arnt brought into the equation, they look mostly Balanced with each other,

Now Weapons are balanced as well,
IS-Lasers= Low-Beam-Duration + Low-Heat = Lower-Damage + Shorter-Range,
Clan-Lasers= High-Beam-Duration + High-Heat = Higher-Damage + Longer-Range,
IS-ACs = 1Single-Shot + Slightly-Shorter-Range,
Clan-ACs= 2-5Shot-burstfire + Slightly-longer-Range, (Ultra & LBX for all ACs)
IS-MIssiles = Single-Volley + Slightly-Shorter-Cool-Down,
Clan-MIssiles= Stream-Volley + Slightly-longer-Cool-Down, (all Streaks2-4-6)

Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 06 December 2014 - 09:37 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Butane9000, on 04 December 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

I feel like it'd be more fair if the IS had limited critical slots for hard points. Such as this:


The way the above works is that the JM6-A is supposed to have missile hard points. What this set up does is restrict the Ballistics to being a maximum of a UAC5 and not a LBX10 or greater. When I first thought of this I also figured in that these critical slots for weapons could be taken up by FF and Endo slots thus reducing your option for weaponry.

What this also does is creates important differences between chassis variants and creating roles for each. I designed this well over a year ago when we were debating the current in game systems in open beta. It's a combination of MWO hard point systems with MW4 limited space.

I hated that restriction from back in whatever MW game it was that used that system. All that empty space in teh side torso and nothing can be put there but a Laser? Nope Nope Nope Nope.

[KuroNyra]

The Boz, on 04 December 2014 - 01:00 AM, said:

The Dire Wolf, Timber Wolf, and StormCrow are head and shoulders above all the other mechs in their weight class. Most of the other Clans, except for the Lights, are top tier mechs in their respective weight classes, while the rest are middling-to-average (Nova and Summoner, for example).

Huh what?

Summoner is meh and far from being a threat. A Thnderbolt, Cataphract or Jaeggermech **** this guy pretty easyly.
Hellbringer got nice firepower but lack in armor. Especially with the current Corebringer hitbox problem.
Nova is... A cooking place, no more no less. Except most of the time, it's the pilot inside the Nova who is cooked. Let's not talk about the low place of the arms.
The myst Linx is overall garbage. Even a Locust can do better.
The Ice Ferret only have his speed for him and that doesn't make it any better, especially against Light Mechs.
The Kit Fox only purpose was the ECL + Triple AMS. Not a real threat unless you let him attack your back for 30 full second without making anymore.
The Adder isn't a threat and is dominated by everything it see. Seriously, when was the last time you saw one?
Masakari old his ground. But not more than the others.


Sorry but when you don't use the 3 "Big Ones" they are not on the top. And are in the average. Most IS Mech dominate the Clans others mechs.

Edited by KuroNyra, 04 December 2014 - 07:29 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 December 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

...All that empty space in teh side torso and nothing can be put there but a Laser? Nope Nope Nope Nope.

Well, you do need room in the side torso for the Sauna and Hot Tub.

[Gauvan]

Nerf is kind of a loaded word. There are some balance issues between Clan and IS but nothing like TT.

But we know we can expect the following to happen reasonably soon:

• A fix to any hitbox bugs and the JJ exploit for the TW
  
• A second IS quirk pass to address maneuverability and, I think, durability.
  
• More Clan mechs resulting in more variety on the field.

I think we need to wait for all of these to happen before talking about a nerf. A buff to IS assault durability will help quite a bit, I think, as while a DW is easy to kill from behind somebody needs to keep its attention.

[LordBraxton]

I think a lot of clan players are arrogant. (or just new because they clammy mechs got them into MWO) I swear Clan mechs torso twist a lot less than IS mechs. Ive watched Hellbringers just stand there and take it all to the CT. I think it's because clanners have so much DPS, they just go all out for the damage and forget to defend themselves. When a Twolf starts twisting like a madman, it is honestly the toughest thing in the game.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Mickey Knoxx, on 04 December 2014 - 07:17 AM, said:

Most logical thing to do it scrap all IS weapons, scrap IS engines, and make all mechs be able to use same setups. Because basically that is how it will end up by the time everything is nerfed, buffed, quirked and penalized.

Everyone wants everything equal and cant compute how to counter strengths and weakness? Make it all the same.

The whiners won't be satisfied until MW:O is reduced to this.

[The Boz]

KuroNyra, on 04 December 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

Huh what?

Summoner is meh and far from being a threat. A Thnderbolt, Cataphract or Jaeggermech **** this guy pretty easyly.
Hellbringer got nice firepower but lack in armor. Especially with the current Corebringer hitbox problem.
Nova is... A cooking place, no more no less. Except most of the time, it's the pilot inside the Nova who is cooked. Let's not talk about the low place of the arms.
The myst Linx is overall garbage. Even a Locust can do better.
The Ice Ferret only have his speed for him and that doesn't make it any better, especially against Light Mechs.
The Kit Fox only purpose was the ECL + Triple AMS. Not a real threat unless you let him attack your back for 30 full second without making anymore.
The Adder isn't a threat and is dominated by everything it see. Seriously, when was the last time you saw one?
Masakari old his ground. But not more than the others.


Sorry but when you don't use the 3 "Big Ones" they are not on the top. And are in the average. Most IS Mech dominate the Clans others mechs.

I love how you couldn't come up with an argument without listing all the Clan Lights in order to bolster your numbers.
Corebringer is a hotfixable issue. It brings almost the same firepower as a Thunderwub, but also has an ECM, and has better heat management. Yes. Better heat management. Because when your lasers are lighter and your heatsinks smaller, you can shoot the laser more often. Would you like me to go through the math again?
Ice Ferret is a Cicada, pretty much, and should be played as such. Solid T2, same as the CDA-3M.
Also, "Not being the best at something" doesn't mean "This mech sucks". The Summoner, while not T1, does not suck. One specific Thunderbolt build is better than it. One. One Cataphract too, when boating ballistics. Jagermech doesn't compare because it has several drawbacks in the "can't outboat, can't match speed, can't fly, can't outtank, can't outmaneuver" department. Now, if you wanna define T2 as "this tier sucks", OK, we can do that. 75% of all IS mechs suck. Next point?
Same goes for the Nova. "Waaah, most of my firepower is in low-slung arms!" True. Then again, just one low-slung arm can carry the firepower of an entire IS 50-ton mech, so...

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

LordBraxton, on 04 December 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:

I think a lot of clan players are arrogant. (or just new because they clammy mechs got them into MWO) I swear Clan mechs torso twist a lot less than IS mechs. Ive watched Hellbringers just stand there and take it all to the CT. I think it's because clanners have so much DPS, they just go all out for the damage and forget to defend themselves. When a Twolf starts twisting like a madman, it is honestly the toughest thing in the game.

With respect, do you or have you piloted clan mechs? There is a reason for this issue. You mentioned that you see Clan mechs twist less than IS. Most Clan weapons need more "facetime" than IS ones, almost twice as much time in some cases. So factor in that clan mechs usually run very hot and need to cycle or group their fire on top of double burn times for their weapons... more often than not clan mechs HAVE to constantly face their targets to do all of their weapon damage. The rest of the time the weapon use is wasted trying to roll damage and spray painting the enemy (or friendly) mechs, terrain or sky.

Best way to experience this is take a Trial Nova against a friend into a private match against an IS mech with meta or PPD. You'll be weaponless or dead because you'll be fighting not to overheat while keeping your crosshairs on a section trying to core it out, and the only thing you'll have done is painted the other mech yellow. or maybe taken off an arm because IS can shoot and roll damage like mad.

Edited by 00ohDstruct, 04 December 2014 - 08:15 AM.