496 replies to this topic

[pwnface]

Jiang Wei, on 04 December 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

This statement is false. The atlas is not pigeonholed to being only a brawler. It has however become the but end of the joke.

You are right, you can run your Atlas as an LRM boat if you want, but you deserve to get slapped if you do. The Atlas is BEST run as a brawler, you can do whatever else you want with it but you aren't optimizing its potential unless you are brawling. There are far better chassis for long range poke or LRMs.

[Lefty Lucy]

I'm sorry, but 2x ERLL doesn't cut it when you have to expose your entire mech to fire them.

[AlmightyAeng]

Jiang Wei, on 04 December 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

and very difficult for the atlas to return fire because of its slow agility.

Nope.

Quote

As far as range is concerned, the guass rifle used to be a useful addition to any longer range atlas build, until they added that stupid trigger timer which was completely uneccessary.

I remember when people still used Gauss and either ERLL or ERPPC in Atlases for a 'long-ranged build.' But the minute ANY other assault came out what wasn't shooting from the hip (Stalkers) they disappeared, like the dinosaurs.

Edit: Granted, I am ignoring the fact that the Awesome was also available at the same time. Let's not discuss why the Barn Door of Epic Doorness was rare.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 04 December 2014 - 01:38 PM.

[Void Angel]

Water Bear, on 04 December 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

People seem to think a 5 kph difference matters. I always think: Have you ever set your throttle to 5 kph? It's like you're not moving. That's the speed difference between those mechs.

Well, it does matter - overland travel speed has tactical advantages that aren't easily quantifiable. That 7kph difference between extremes may save you from the odd bit of sniper fire, or let you close in on the enemy before they kill your buddies or force a choke point. But it's not a huge difference; you're not "running circles around" anyone with a mere 7kph advantage.

Edited by Void Angel, 04 December 2014 - 01:40 PM.

[Moomtazz]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 December 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

Lefty I use my Atlas as Dire Support to very good advantage. Second It does not take up a slot for a Dire Wolf. I'm an inner Sphere player, That slot belongs to me if I'm in it. That means it belongs to an Atlas.

This guy comes in to defend Atlas effectiveness and i would bet 100MC he runs LRMs on it. Oh the humanity!

[RustyBolts]

I Kill Direwolfs in all my Atlases a lot. All are set up to brawl also. I torso twist and advance from the side. Turn and shoot. Rinse and repeat. They are not that hard to kill.

Edited by RustyBolts, 04 December 2014 - 01:43 PM.

[Void Angel]

Ghost Badger, on 04 December 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

I remember when people still used Gauss and either ERLL or ERPPC in Atlases for a 'long-ranged build.' But the minute ANY other assault came out what wasn't shooting from the hip (Stalkers) they disappeared, like the dinosaurs.

I used to use Large Lasers and a Gauss Rifle along with my SRMs to support mid-range combat on an Atlas. The drop in firepower was offset by the huge increase in heat efficiency and flexibility of engagement ranges - but it was always a brawling build. The charge time put an end to that because you need split-second timing in some situations close-in, and the charge was a dealbreaker.

[pwnface]

Void Angel, on 04 December 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

Well, it does matter - overland travel speed has tactical advantages that aren't easily quantifiable. That 7kph difference between extremes may save you from the odd bit of sniper fire, or let you close in on the enemy before they kill your buddies or force a choke point. But it's not a huge difference; you're not "running circles around" anyone with a mere 7kph advantage.

Very much this. If you are pushing the enemy force you want to get in their face ASAP, 7kph does make a significant difference. Also bigger engine = faster torso twist which is 100% necessary for successful Atlas tanking.

I don't think comparing the DWF to AS7 based on damage numbers is a fair comparison. The Atlas can often push into enemy ranks and cause havoc and survive much longer than a direwolf can. This can have a much greater influence on the outcome of the match than people realize. While the DWF does have more firepower potential, it isn't always better than an Atlas.

[Satan n stuff]

Shatterpoint, on 04 December 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

Working as intended, DireWolf is now the top dog and is almost always piloted by someone without the balls to be in a front line capable mech, hope you can pick off the rest of the team and 9vs1-2 the remaining wolf/wolves

Or you play it as any competent team would and call out the Dire's locations and take them out first. Letting a mech with that kind of firepower remain active until the end of a match is a huge mistake.
ECM cover or not, one or more good hit and runs or a well-timed rush will take out any Dire with ease. In fact, they are one of the easiest assaults to kill.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 04 December 2014 - 01:48 PM.

[Void Angel]

RustyBolts, on 04 December 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

I Kill Direwolfs in all my Atlases a lot. All are set up to brawl also. I torso twist and advance from the side. Turn and shoot. Rinse and repeat. They are not that hard to kill.

You are assuming that you have the flanking advantage. This is wrong, when we're talking about balance. If you get yourself up to the Starebear without significant damage and open up on it first, you sure can kill it - but if he's paying a modicum of attention and sees you coming, he can simply back away and stare you to death.

pwnface, on 04 December 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

While the DWF does have more firepower potential, it isn't always better than an Atlas.

Just almost always, which is the issue.

[Jiang Wei]

RustyBolts, on 04 December 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

I Kill Direwolfs in all my Atlases a lot. All are set up to brawl also. I torso twist and advance from the side. Turn and shoot. Rinse and repeat. They are not that hard to kill.

"when they dont see you coming...." You forgot to add that bit.

[pwnface]

Void Angel, on 04 December 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

You are assuming that you have the flanking advantage. This is wrong, when we're talking about balance. If you get yourself up to the Starebear without significant damage and open up on it first, you sure can kill it - but if he's paying a modicum of attention and sees you coming, he can simply back away and stare you to death.


Just almost always, which is the issue.

Under 300m I'd rather have an Atlas than a DWF.

DWF also tend to get left behind because they are so incredibly slow
Even a lumbering Atlas can keep up with the team and leaves the DWF in the dust.

I find that matches where the DWF really excels tends to be when you let the enemy come to your position and not the other way around.

[Lexx]

PGI should create a new Hero Atlas with 6 ballistic and 5 energy hardpoints. Give it a quirk where all the weapons have their weight reduced by 50% and another quirk were you can run an XL engine that only uses 2 slots in each side torso.

pwnface, on 04 December 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

Under 300m I'd rather have an Atlas than a DWF.

DWF also tend to get left behind because they are so incredibly slow
Even a lumbering Atlas can keep up with the team and leaves the DWF in the dust.

I find that matches where the DWF really excels tends to be when you let the enemy come to your position and not the other way around.

Except to be faster than a Direwolf you have to either use an XL engine (which means you die too easily) or have about 20+ tons less weight for weapons. You couldn't really use all that tonnage anyways, even if it was available, since you have less than half the number of weapon hardpoints.

Edited by Lexx, 04 December 2014 - 01:57 PM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Void Angel, on 04 December 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

but if he's paying a modicum of attention and sees you coming, he can simply back away and stare you to death.

Yeah, Direwolves win a staring contest. If you're in an Atlas, why are you playing that game?

Jiang Wei, on 04 December 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

"when they dont see you coming...." You forgot to add that bit.

If you're in a D-DC with ECM and they DO see you coming you're doing it wrong, lol.

[Johnny Z]

Ghost Badger, on 04 December 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

Yeah, Direwolves win a staring contest. If you're in an Atlas, why are you playing that game?



If you're in a D-DC with ECM and they DO see you coming you're doing it wrong, lol.

This is worthy of an NGNG comic. Made me laugh picturing an 100 ton Atlas tip toeing around the battlefield stealthing Direwolves hahaha. Not to mention it isnt an 100 ton assault mechs role to do that on a more serius note.

[CDLord HHGD]

Johnny Z, on 04 December 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

This is worthy of an NGNG comic. Made me laugh picturing an 100 ton Atlas tip toeing around the battlefield stealthing Direwolves hahaha. Not to mention it isnt an 100 ton assault mechs role to do that on a more serius note.

You mean like how the DWF looks like it's tiptoeing around? Someone on these very forums coined it as an elephant tiptoeing around a mouse....

[Johnny Z]

Lexx, on 04 December 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

PGI should create a new Hero Atlas with 6 ballistic and 5 energy hardpoints. Give it a quirk where all the weapons have their weight reduced by 50% and another quirk were you can run an XL engine that only uses 2 slots in each side torso.

I should have thought of this, well said. You forgot to mention the less crit slot and longer range and more damage parts but I guess quirks took care of balancing that for the most part.

[Void Angel]

pwnface, on 04 December 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

Under 300m I'd rather have an Atlas than a DWF.

DWF also tend to get left behind because they are so incredibly slow
Even a lumbering Atlas can keep up with the team and leaves the DWF in the dust.

At maximum, that's an 11kph difference. Now, say it takes two minutes for the team to move to contact - this is not always the case, but call it an average. You're only going to be about 366 meters behind the Atlas in your lance. That's a whole 2.45 seconds behind - but still well within the engagement range of your weapons. And that's with the maximum engine on that Atlas; for a more typical 3500 or 325 engine, the differences (8.9kph and 4.4kph respectively) approach negligibility.

Ghost Badger, on 04 December 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

Yeah, Direwolves win a staring contest. If you're in an Atlas, why are you playing that game?

Read the original post to which I was responding - I would suggest trying to understand it, rather than just skimming to generate talking points for a one-liner.

Ghost Badger, on 04 December 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

If you're in a D-DC with ECM and they DO see you coming you're doing it wrong, lol.

Because ECM trumps visual spotting and enemy positioning, allowing you unlimited ability to get to knife-range? No, if they're poorly positioned so you can get right up on them, they're doing it wrong - and either situation has no place in a balance discussion.

Edited by Void Angel, 04 December 2014 - 02:19 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Some made the point that the Atlas is potentially stronger under 300 meters. Its true that is in favour of the Atlas.

Atlas being superior under 300 meters could potentially completely balance the two out if the Atlas was alot faster than the Dire Wolf carrying an standard engine and with that successfull load out.

Having the shorter range advantage coupled with slower movement speed is the deal breaker.

To find the balance the question is what speed can an Atlas go and still win a short range staring contest with a well equipped experienced none afk Dire Wolf.

Please dont mention torso twist when this reply is about a Atlas standing toe to toe with a Dire Wolf at around 300 meters.

Edited by Johnny Z, 04 December 2014 - 02:34 PM.

[Piney II]

Quote Function Inoperative.................

Johnny Z:

"This and Hero mechs and the queue not being assault heavy since Omni mech tech has been added is why this topic is so relevant to game play balance. Are the two 100 tonners balanced or not and can the soon to be added 100 tonner have a chance on the field. The answer, it will be brutal for the 100 ton King Crab with none mastery and less than maxed modules."

It won't be an easy ride............but it's a free mech. I plan to just have fun with mine to get the basics leveled. If I decide I have a future with it, I'll pick up the other 2 variants when they're released.

One thing is certain - interesting times will be upon us when the Crab is released.