496 replies to this topic

[Kazvall]

Stop taking medium lasers in the DDC. Take the fastest engine possible, alpha, twist left, alpha, twist right. Only aim for the big turtle head. Win every time if both have equal armor. Stop exposing yourself to damage, you only need a small window of time to alpha the ac20 plus missiles.

[Hillbillycrow]

Atlas? Go DDC or go home, unless you have a Dire.

[Kazvall]

The lesson is this. If you twist properly by sweeping back and forth between alpha's, the DW has to chew through 136 more armor in order to kill you. I'm not saying this is easy. However, when properly applied, no DW can stand up to it. Their torso shape and mobility is simply inferior.

[Brody319]

Artgathan, on 04 December 2014 - 08:09 PM, said:

2 PPC + 2 AC20 = 60 alpha. Not "80ish". Also all of those are pretty hot weapons (AC20 generates 60% of the heat of a PPC), so the analogy kinda fails on all points.

Oh my god, Look at the Stalker 5M
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6f6dc629f0f1dde
99.5 point alpha! and its got a better heat efficiency than the meta whale! Clearly we need to buff the Warhawk because the Stalker is just soo powerful. Thats 2 alphas and a dead whale if they front loaded all their weapons! thats stupid and needs to be nerfed.

[SnowDragon]

I've always thought that, instead of giving mechs extra armour for mechs that are supposed to be tough as balls to kill, they should have been given damage resistances instead. The Catapults and anything else that has a bay door has a damage resistance as long as the doors are closed. The Atlas would be a lot scarier if it had a 15/25% damage resistance on it's torso front sections. That way, the armour values stay the same, but the mech gets quite the buff to it's survivability. Then you would actually feel tough. They would be a reason for an Atlas to stride out first, as the AC/20 round that hits it is only 15 damage, not 20, instead of you just having more armour that eventually is worthless.

[D1G17AL]

bobF, on 04 December 2014 - 08:04 PM, said:

This is the closest personally relevant neckbeard issue I have with this game, so I feel compelled to contribute to this certainly pointless intellectual circlefap.

I love the Atlas, particularly the DDC. It's a synchronous build, the ECM allowing you some opportunities to maneuver well within optimal killing range. You may even have buddies with you, since people like to follow ECM and big assault mechs (they're handy cover). I have the classic ac20 3xsrm6a 2xML build (and AMS, just to be a good guy Greg for the group). I personally feel the 2xLL build runs too hot and the artemis missles give a far better grouping; the mech is honestly for brawling. Leave the LL peak-a-boo cowardice to the lights and mediums imo.

Anyhow, I had great fun with this mech, and personally feared no other. 90% of DWFs I dueled were just overconfident fodder. The dakkawolves don't expect champion torso twisting, and the dual gauss just can't fire off alphas quick enough, or maintain accuracy when getting blasted in the face with salvos of srm. The chief advantage the atlas pilot has has always been the torso twist. Here's a controversial statement: atlai torso twist survivability is actually superior to the TBR.

Then BAP got buffed to 360m. Retired DDC I bought a DWF for c-bills, and always played it in my off rounds (i.e. my team/myself got ggclosed and I ragequit the match). I appreciated it's raw firepower but was always annoyed with it's mobility. When I garaged the DDC a couple weeks ago, I played the DWF nearly exclusively. I got used to it's dumptruck-style handling, and discovered something shocking: the DWF owns all face in the hands of a capable assault pilot.

I run 2xgauss 6xML 2xlrm10a (and still even rock the ams, because I'm a swell fellow like that), the "All-Rounder" build. It's incredibly versatile, and about over 9000 times more deadly and versatile than the DDC (in my personal experience). The entire episode was kind of an epiphany for me: I discovered that I love clan mechs, hate feudal warlords, and much prefer genetically enhanced, transhuman warrior culture.

Short story long, I agree with the OP. The Atlas needs some kind of love. I think some ST internal/external armor buffing would work, and/or a couple hardpoint tweaks. If the chassis had the option to mount some more firepower, with some buffed STs, it would quickly recapture the respect it deserves. In it's current form, for all variants, it doesn't concern my DWF in the slightest.

Thank you for agreeing. I also agree. My atlases have been very difficult to justify running lately with the DWF and even the Warhawk.

I really think the Atlas, all variants, needs a moderate to large buff to armor/armor effectiveness. If the Dire Wolf is supposed to be capable of launching out lots of raw firepower then the Atlas should be the mech that can withstand that damage. It should be tough to kill and fearsome to take down because of how hard it is to kill it.

[LawDawg]

SnowDragon, on 04 December 2014 - 08:35 PM, said:

I've always thought that, instead of giving mechs extra armour for mechs that are supposed to be tough as balls to kill, they should have been given damage resistances instead. The Catapults and anything else that has a bay door has a damage resistance as long as the doors are closed. The Atlas would be a lot scarier if it had a 15/25% damage resistance on it's torso front sections. That way, the armour values stay the same, but the mech gets quite the buff to it's survivability. Then you would actually feel tough. They would be a reason for an Atlas to stride out first, as the AC/20 round that hits it is only 15 damage, not 20, instead of you just having more armour that eventually is worthless.

Open doors, get interterals shot out!

[luxebo]

LawDawg, on 04 December 2014 - 08:18 PM, said:

I pilot both, and the Dire lays out pain and takes SO much better spred damage and hard points than the Atlas. Hands down

Due to hard points

<Edit to clarify>

You sir are playing the Atlas wrong then. The S has such a zombie potential with 2 ml and leave it's arms out.

Maybe cause your build is long ranged which is the issue.

Elizander, on 04 December 2014 - 08:28 PM, said:

Here are my problems with Atlases. This doesn't mean that they are the only problems or the most important ones. We each have our own issues with it:

• Heat - Full Brawl Atlas configs overheat quickly and will be forced to cool off before they can finish the job. Sure you can bring Coolshots but who would bring that over Arty and UAV?
  
• Weapon CD Sync - Quirks desync Atlas weapons which relies on firing a quick alpha then twisting away. Making an AC20 fire 0.5 seconds faster than SRM6 is wasted because you should not be face-staring. If you are going to reduce the CD of AC20 you should reduce the CD of SRM6 by the same amount.
  
• Durability - Say what you want, but my Direwolf shoots 96 damage with 30 of that being pinpoint FLD. If an Atlas stares at it for just 1 second or so then his entire CT armor is obliterated.

CD is not an issue in my opnion, AC20 and ASRMs hit like trucks and practically together.

If your DW shoots that much at once, and the Atlas is staring at it, then the Atlas is playing wrong. Torso twist to the max.

Heat is a bit of an issue but why bring a UAV or arty over coolshot in an ATLAS? A UAV is useless in anything but a scout as you have to enter straight into the enemy to drop the UAV, and arty requires staring at people, making it a dead zone, whereas a coolshot does that much more.

SRMs and AC20 sync well in my opinion and are a sweet alpha all at once.

[Aresye]

Lefty Lucy, on 04 December 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

Even post-quirk, piloting an Atlas simply puts your team at a huge disadvantage because you're taking up a Direwolf slot.

But, you say, "Atlases can outbrawl direwolves!"

Atlases simply have no effective role in this game when compared to a Direwolf taking the same spot.

People need to stop measuring up mechs in each class as in, "Well, this mech is an assault, so therefore it should be equal to other assaults."

That kind of balance is boring.

Know what's special about Atlases? They can move faster, they can carry ECM, and most importantly, they still have quite a psychological impact.

An Atlas was never meant to be able to face brawl a Dire Wolf, and it never should be. Just because it's an assault does not mean it's "anti-assault." Dire Wolves, if anything, are actually for lights and mediums to kill. An Atlas isn't as susceptible to lights and mediums as a Dire Wolf, which means the tonnage required to deal with an Atlas is actually higher than the tonnage required to deal with a Dire Wolf.

[Kazvall]

An Atlas most certainly can face brawl a Dire Wolf inside 270m.

[Artgathan]

Brody319, on 04 December 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

Oh my god, Look at the Stalker 5M
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6f6dc629f0f1dde
99.5 point alpha! and its got a better heat efficiency than the meta whale! Clearly we need to buff the Warhawk because the Stalker is just soo powerful. Thats 2 alphas and a dead whale if they front loaded all their weapons! thats stupid and needs to be nerfed.

Changing the goalposts much? The Stalker / Warhawk are irrelevant to the current dicussion. In the previous post you made an erroneous comparison in order to create false evidence for your case. I demonstrated that your comparison was wrong and you respond by making more wrong comparisons?

Also the given stalker doesn't have much going for it in the way of PP damage. Most of it's firepower comes from SRM6 racks. It also doesn't have better heat efficiency than the meta whale, because the stalker's alpha will generate a significant amount of ghost heat from the SRMs (which smurfy doesn't account for). It's firepower is also almost exclusively close ranged, so it has no response to the meta-whale's Long/Midrange firepower.

[Asmudius Heng]

Johnny Z, on 04 December 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

An atlas without an XL engine has no way to compete with a DW's speed and firepower, and with an XL it has no way to compete with a DW's durability even if the chassis were identical hitboxes end of story. Balance Omni mech XL versus Battlemech XL or there is no balance period.

This is very true.

Clans are defined by the XL engine not the weapons etc etc etc

The sheer durability of the clan XL engine compared to the IS is the clans major advantage especially in mechs with good hitboxes.

The Daishi does not have great hitboxes though. However the sheer ability to stack weapons on the Daishi while the atlas can't means the atlas is certainly at a disadvantage. Also the Side torsos on the Atlas get ripped off more easily than the CT making it a great tanking mech but terrible for taking XL and getting that stupid huge firepower.

I do agree that if the atlas cannot be a weaponised monster - but quirks could make it a damage soaking monster which would not translate into better match scores very often because tanking is a thankless task - but it would have a role as the front line leader that is not as afraid to take a few on the chin on the way in forcing focus fire on for a long time.

I hope that after a month or so of seeing the data they look into quirks again and further refine roles based on these sorts of issues.

The Atlas will NEVER compete against the Daishi in the more broad range of effective metrics IMO but if it can have a tanking ROLE and is GOOD at it then it will have a space as long as the IS also get a mech that can do serious outputting of damage (King Crab lets hope)

Then we have some role variety at the top end of the weight spectrum for the IS at least.

[Johnny Z]

The only idea that makes sense to help the Atlas 100 tonner I have seen so far is a stronger quirk towards armor. This way the DW "op no mech should be able to be in visual sight of the DW and live" can keep their uncontested firepower but the Atlas can have some self respect in having superior armor. This would help with real balance of the two 100 tonners because currently they are far from equal value.

This along with XL engines balances would make the Atlas a mech that isnt handi capped to badly and if the King Crab also gets the same treatment then it isnt a joke either.

[9thDeathscream]

Sure at 500+ meters the Direwolf is more dangerous. So positioning is key.

Range mods for Ac20 and Srm6 = 297 meters effective range.
Radar Deprivation and Seismic Sensor.

My AS7s has almost 100 Firepower at 300 meters.

A good Atlas pilot is far more dangerous than the majority of Direwolf players.

[Elizander]

luxebo, on 04 December 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:

SRMs and AC20 sync well in my opinion and are a sweet alpha all at once.

They do, but they have Atlas quirks where the Ballistic gets a CD but the SRM does not.

[Asmudius Heng]

Akulla1980, on 04 December 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

A good Atlas pilot is far more dangerous than the majority of Direwolf players.

Thats not really the question.

If you put the same good pilot in a Daishi would be outperform his Atlas in most situations?

Balance should not take player skill into account it should assume the same level of skill so that skill is the differentiator not the mech.

[Johnny Z]

Akulla1980, on 04 December 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

Sure at 500+ meters the Direwolf is more dangerous. So positioning is key.

Range mods for Ac20 and Srm6 = 297 meters effective range.
Radar Deprivation and Seismic Sensor.

My AS7s has almost 100 Firepower at 300 meters.

A good Atlas pilot is far more dangerous than the majority of Direwolf players.

You cant be serious and this must be a troll reply. 7 kill matches were almost standard for the Dire Wolf pre quirks and they still post a good score every match unless the guy is afk or they throw the match. This has been going on for months.

Since when has it been the norm for Atlases to post amazing match scores?

[Nick Makiaveli]

Ok since after 11 pages you guys are still on about the same old same old.....

CW. Solves that question. Yes non-CW queues will exist, but the game has always planned to be centered around CW.

[Glythe]

I just want to point out "I told you so".

The quirks really didn't even begin to make the Atlas feared for its damage. It's just a big punching bag really and that isn't very scary.

[Mazzyplz]

Asmudius Heng, on 04 December 2014 - 09:13 PM, said:

If you put the same good pilot in a Daishi would be outperform his Atlas in most situations?

that's probably not the case since they have a different playstyle.

atlas can twist and move a little bit better

dire wolf turns as fast as a cruiseliner ship, no twist either, good gauss builds but dps builds are overrated