146 replies to this topic

[RalphVargr]

Preface: Do not "Blame Canada" ™.

I think the two biggest problems that MWO has are essentially unfixable, structural issues. These are *not* unique to PGI, or the Battletech I.P., as other games suffer from them too.

In increasing order:

1) Free To Play (F2P)

The model of F2P is fundamentally flawed, as it forces monetization of all content at some point in time (pay to win), and divisions inside the player base (the "entitlement" muck).

Additionally, it drags out the development cycle. No pay-to-play game could hope to survive releasing what is essentially a beta version, and bringing it up to speed as free-to-play playtesters proof the game.

I have spent more money, in this year (my first try at this mode of payment), on F2P, then I would have on entering the World Series Of Poker. The results, in terms of entertainment value, for me, have not been superior to a standard pay-to-play game.

I do not think I'm alone in thinking this.

2) Competitive Team Play. This is by far the worst problem.

Online games are notorious for poor social conduct (and I claim no exemption). But the group model of play brings out the worst in online gaming behavior. Team killing, petty tyrants, group drama, berating and blaming/shaming- team games bring out the worst in people. Not to mention the forums...

Again, I claim no special exemption. Guilty as charged.

When you have a team environment, a vicious Darwinian cycle begins, in which only the most skilled and equipped players can hope to survive and compete.

Community/Clan Warfare only shifts the most competitive players/teams into even more harsh cycles of deadly gameplay, while the main, casual community withers into a stale environment. I've seen this occur in World of Tanks/Warplanes, as an example.

The only alternative is a player-versus-environment solo mode, or a limited amount of player interaction. This can be the sandbox model, or the RPG model.

MWO would need to be completely rebuilt to address both these issues. That is not a realistic expectation. It is futile to expect a small company, with limited resources, to fix an industry-wide set of issues. Lecturing the company, or the game community is equally futile, and toxic.

It may simply be that one either accepts the current state of affairs, or moves on. In my case, it will result in reduced time spent playing MWO, and more time spent on other activities.

I look forward to a prettier galaxy map in CW.

[Gyrok]

The issue is not the competitive teams, they want to win.

The issue is the derps who like to troll the play2win crowd by not helping and then enjoy watching the other guys break their backs trying to carry their inept robots.

EDIT: Actually, neither of these are issues. Truthfully...this is closer:

3/3/3/3 does not work.

The matchmaker has lost elo, and he has not been found in quite some time.

Large premade groups must form by contrived rules that 2-3 smaller groups do not, giving a possibly large tonnage advantage to one side in spite of similar skill on both sides.

ECM.

Clan energy runs too hot, clan ballistics are terribad, and clan LRMs/SRMs are generally inferior to IS weapons

IS customization is OP, and all but energy weapons are outright better than the "superior" clans.

Light mechs. Clans do not really have any, and IS has some ridiculously good ones.

PP FLD + convergence.

LBX has no alternate mode.

CERPPC does splash damage.

Hit registration is borked.

No MASC yet...

Jump jets are mislabeled, as they are actually hover jets.

Aside from that, it is a great game though...

Edited by Gyrok, 10 December 2014 - 07:29 AM.

[Killstorm999999]

RalphVargr, on 10 December 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

1) Free To Play (F2P)

The model of F2P is fundamentally flawed, as it forces monetization of all content at some point in time (pay to win), and divisions inside the player base (the "entitlement" muck).

Additionally, it drags out the development cycle. No pay-to-play game could hope to survive releasing what is essentially a beta version, and bringing it up to speed as free-to-play playtesters proof the game.

I have spent more money, in this year (my first try at this mode of payment), on F2P, then I would have on entering the World Series Of Poker. The results, in terms of entertainment value, for me, have not been superior to a standard pay-to-play game.

I look forward to a prettier galaxy map in CW.

I think F2P is the greatest flaw. The monetization is intrusive to immersion. Because of the monetization, C-Bill earnings have to be tightly and artificially controlled. There really cant be a salvage system, because even just a medium laser is worth so many C-Bills compared to typical expected earnings per drop. There really can't be permanent destruction of mechs, because you can't really go around permanently destroying items people payed actual money for! (Well, unless you are Eve). There is no open market for player trading.

Because of all this, MWO is essentially just a 'progress engine'. The whole point is to earn more and to buy more mechs.

That being said, I don't think a MW game could really exist without the F2P model. It may not be the mechwarrior game we deserve, but it's the only one we have. And the actual combat it self, the feel of the weapons especially, is really well done!

[bluepiglet]

Can't believe you missed out the growing power creeping.....

[Kirkland Langue]

2 Biggest issues? Oh that's easy:

1. The Developers. Put way too much effort into spitting out new Mechs and Maps, not nearly enough effort in cleaning up the game to bring it in line with competitors' technology from years ago. Best example of this would be the lack of destructible terrain. It's absurd for MWO to not have at least some destructible terrain. Not to mention the UI, grindfest nature of the game, etc etc. There is no part of this game that couldn't use a major overhaul.

2. The Players. We always complain and then spend money on the game. One or the other would probably be fine, but doing both is just stupid. I'm as guilty as the next person...

[keith]

Gyrok, on 10 December 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

The issue is not the competitive teams, they want to win.

The issue is the derps who like to troll the play2win crowd by not helping and then enjoy watching the other guys break their backs trying to carry their inept robots.

EDIT: Actually, neither of these are issues. Truthfully...this is closer:

3/3/3/3 does not work.

The matchmaker has lost elo, and he has not been found in quite some time.

Large premade groups must form by contrived rules that 2-3 smaller groups do not, giving a possibly large tonnage advantage to one side in spite of similar skill on both sides.

ECM.

Clan energy runs too hot, clan ballistics are terribad, and clan LRMs/SRMs are generally inferior to IS weapons

IS customization is OP, and all but energy weapons are outright better than the "superior" clans.

Light mechs. Clans do not really have any, and IS has some ridiculously good ones.

PP FLD + convergence.

LBX has no alternate mode.

CERPPC does splash damage.

Hit registration is borked.

No MASC yet...

Jump jets are mislabeled, as they are actually hover jets.

Aside from that, it is a great game though...

so game balance?

[Tezcatli]

I'm just going to accept the game as it is. I did that months ago. I don't have to look at the game with hopeful eyes of what it might become. I just play it for what it is.

Edited by Tezcatli, 10 December 2014 - 08:03 AM.

[Rebas Kradd]

bluepiglet, on 10 December 2014 - 07:39 AM, said:

Can't believe you missed out the growing power creeping.....

Your entire posting history is nothing but griping.

Nobody's making you play the game. If you don't enjoy it anymore, leave like a normal person. It's that simple.

[CyclonerM]

Deltron Zero, on 10 December 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

That being said, I don't think a MW game could really exist without the F2P model. It may not be the mechwarrior game we deserve, but it's the only one we have. And the actual combat it self, the feel of the weapons especially, is really well done!

Why not? I actually hate when a franchise is adapted to work with a F2P structure..

There have been LOT of good and awesome MW videogames before MWO, all with their flaws, but they have had good things neverthless. MW2 was amazingly immersive (especially when you are 7-8 y.o.), MW3 was the best simulator of the series i think, MW4 had a lot of 'Mechs and lot of multiplayer possibilities (and MW4 Mercs also had an intriguing campaign that left the player some choices), MWLL is just awesome, the first true BattleTech game, the MechCommander series is good too..

Actually, the perfect MW game , in my opinion, cannot be a F2P. It should be a very open project like Star Citizen, with community-created content. I bet CIG would be the only software house that could create a truly big, immersive and awesome MechWarrior game. Imagine Star Citizen with a focus on 'Mechs instead of ships, but keeping a space combat and travel component ...

[AlmightyAeng]

bluepiglet, on 10 December 2014 - 07:39 AM, said:

Can't believe you missed out the growing power creeping.....

Well, that's why we have quirks. To let the older mechs do the creep, too

[Tastian]

RalphVargr, on 10 December 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

I have spent more money, in this year (my first try at this mode of payment), on F2P, then I would have on entering the World Series Of Poker.

Looks like its working as intended.

[Foxfire kadrpg]

Free to play model is not bad, imo, but the monitization of this particular game is a bit akward. We have to first convert our money into variable amounts of virtual money, the latter is seldom completely exchanged for what we wanted in the first place, leaving a feeling of wasted buying power.

MWO could do with direct purchases, and go ahead and have RL prices afixed to purchasable assets. It should also be reluctant to sell new content in bundles. Ala carte mechs is a good step forward, but even then, sometimes I do NOT want all three.

The Pay-to-win label is one the developers have to avoid, and I think the hero mechs come close to it, since they represent unique game mechanics. I feel they are not overpowered, but I remember YenLoWang having four module slots in a game where some mechs had only two, and the Dragon Slayer was a prefered victor of competitive players because it aligned its hardpoints on one side.

Competitive play does not equal *******. By that I mean it is possible to have players focused on doing everything they can to win without them being anti-social. I, for one, like competitive play (although I'm not the top teir by any stretch of imagination) but unfortunately not all players are.

I have the theory that Community Warfare will do well to ease the 'problem' of competitive play, as it will attract the win-minded players to it, freeing public que for those who simply want a chaotic, suprise outcome each match.

If there is any problem with MWO other than an awkward way for me to send funds to the developers, I would say it is graphical optimizations and ridiculously small legacy maps. But that's just me.

[Logan Hawke]

CyclonerM, on 10 December 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

Why not? I actually hate when a franchise is adapted to work with a F2P structure..

There have been LOT of good and awesome MW videogames before MWO, all with their flaws, but they have had good things neverthless. MW2 was amazingly immersive (especially when you are 7-8 y.o.), MW3 was the best simulator of the series i think, MW4 had a lot of 'Mechs and lot of multiplayer possibilities (and MW4 Mercs also had an intriguing campaign that left the player some choices), MWLL is just awesome, the first true BattleTech game, the MechCommander series is good too..

Actually, the perfect MW game , in my opinion, cannot be a F2P. It should be a very open project like Star Citizen, with community-created content. I bet CIG would be the only software house that could create a truly big, immersive and awesome MechWarrior game. Imagine Star Citizen with a focus on 'Mechs instead of ships, but keeping a space combat and travel component ...

I'm not sure SC is a very good example of something better than free to play. Especially considering it is combining the monetary aspects of both free to play and pay to play together without the concessions that make free to play/pay to play acceptable (e.g. never being required to pay or getting everything stated for one lump sum without having to grind). Plus, throw on top of that the massive amount of cashing in on fanboyism and hype that makes IGP look like innocent and generous providers of happiness and you have a recipe for disaster. I know it's not going to tank thanks to it's passable gameplay and fanboys (purely because it can't. MWO didn't tank during 2013 because of desperate holdouts, fanboys, and believers, neither will SC), but I have a fun little pocket scenario where it is so bad on release it causes such powerful amounts of rage and backlash that the European Union, United States, and Canada all devolve into anarchy following a world wide economic catastrophe.

Edited by Logan Hawke, 10 December 2014 - 08:54 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

bluepiglet, on 10 December 2014 - 07:39 AM, said:

Can't believe you missed out the growing power creeping.....

People generally don't want to believe this, but it's true.

[Lily from animove]

what game are you playing?

f2p is one of the only working models today unless you are not a big AAA title.
f2p in MWO is quite good, no p2w cap and such.

further more, what weird groupexperience do you have? I have yet only 3 times killed an own teammate by accident in the heat of the battle. and maybe 2 times was i killed by others. groupplay is not half as bad as you describe it.

Yes for more mass suitability, the game woudl need PvE, because PvP only is a problem when people meet wthat want to play for tryharding and winning vs people which play for fun and entertainment. But I guess CW will fix this, the more tryhards go CW, the rest stays in solo and grp queue. unfortunately this will mean a big part of the community is not part of the community war.

True issue is a bit lack of game mode diversity, maps and special rules. people should be able to make player made events easier and applying mybe some lore like rules of time related battles with only specific tech stages allowed.

other things like hitreg and balance are not true issues, that is stuff nearly any other Multiplayer shooter with a centralised serverhas today.

Vassago Rain, on 10 December 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

People generally don't want to believe this, but it's true.

yeha clan wave two, much power creeping right? -.-

Edited by Lily from animove, 10 December 2014 - 09:00 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

CyclonerM, on 10 December 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

Why not? I actually hate when a franchise is adapted to work with a F2P structure..

There have been LOT of good and awesome MW videogames before MWO, all with their flaws, but they have had good things neverthless. MW2 was amazingly immersive (especially when you are 7-8 y.o.), MW3 was the best simulator of the series i think, MW4 had a lot of 'Mechs and lot of multiplayer possibilities (and MW4 Mercs also had an intriguing campaign that left the player some choices), MWLL is just awesome, the first true BattleTech game, the MechCommander series is good too..

Actually, the perfect MW game , in my opinion, cannot be a F2P. It should be a very open project like Star Citizen, with community-created content. I bet CIG would be the only software house that could create a truly big, immersive and awesome MechWarrior game. Imagine Star Citizen with a focus on 'Mechs instead of ships, but keeping a space combat and travel component ...

Starcitizen will have both power armor and robot armor suits.

[Vassago Rain]

Lily from animove, on 10 December 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

what game are you playing?

f2p is one of the only working models today unless you are not a big AAA title.
f2p in MWO is quite good, no p2w cap and such.

further more, what weird groupexperience do you have? I have yet only 3 times killed an own teammate by accident in the heat of the battle. and maybe 2 times was i killed by others. groupplay is not half as bad as you describe it.

Yes for more mass suitability, the game woudl need PvE, because PvP only is a problem when people meet wthat want to play for tryharding and winning vs people which play for fun and entertainment. But I guess CW will fix this, the more tryhards go CW, the rest stays in solo and grp queue. unfortunately this will mean a big part of the community is not part of the community war.

True issue is a bit lack of game mode diversity, maps and special rules. people should be able to make player made events easier and applying mybe some lore like rules of time related battles with only specific tech stages allowed.

other things like hitreg and balance are not true issues, that is stuff nearly any other Multiplayer shooter with a centralised serverhas today.

MWO is one of the most P2W games ever made.

Sorry to ruin your fantasy, but it is. They routinely lock meta and new stuff behind a paywall. For instance, all the clan stuff was behind a paywall for 6 months. That was tons of fun, now wasn't it?

F2P is also not doing well at all in 2014, and will do even worse in 2015. It's a bit like kickstarter. They've both served their purpose as experiments, and proven to not really work. All you get out of both is mediocre games that don't update, other than to add more monetized content. Which isn't necessarily because the devs are greedy or awful, but because the model itself requires that you do it.

Of course, there are some shining examples of both done right, but comparing MWO to path of exile isn't really fair.

[Astrocanis]

Kirkland Langue, on 10 December 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

2 Biggest issues? Oh that's easy:

1. The Developers. Put way too much effort into spitting out new Mechs and Maps, not nearly enough effort in cleaning up the game to bring it in line with competitors' technology from years ago. Best example of this would be the lack of destructible terrain. It's absurd for MWO to not have at least some destructible terrain. Not to mention the UI, grindfest nature of the game, etc etc. There is no part of this game that couldn't use a major overhaul.

2. The Players. We always complain and then spend money on the game. One or the other would probably be fine, but doing both is just stupid. I'm as guilty as the next person...

1 is a F2P issue. They HAVE to create income and the way they've found works best is to release new mechs for $. Additional sales related to that are camo/paint/mechbays.

2 is not restricted to this game. WoW is a pay-to-play environment and it's every bit (if not more) toxic as this playerbase. In fact, form trolls aside, I've found this game's base to be relatively pleasant. I expect that to change when the game is distributed by Steam. In a very large way.

[Mister Blastman]

RalphVargr, on 10 December 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

2) Competitive Team Play. This is by far the worst problem.
When you have a team environment, a vicious Darwinian cycle begins, in which only the most skilled and equipped players can hope to survive and compete.

Uhh... uhhhhh... uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...



Bahahahaahahahahaahahahahahahahahaha ahahhahahahahaha. That's the MOST ASININE THING I have heard around here in the longest time!

You are complaining about it? You are complaining about people wanting to win? About people who try hard? Really? For real?

HILARIOUS!

Look in a mirror.

The problem with MWO is players that don't try hard enough. The ruin the game experience for everyone else. Nobody likes to lose. But everyone likes to win. The only way to win is...

(And no, not every little Johnny should get a trophy for playing soccer each season. Only the best players/best teams should.)

HOWEVER... With that said... I would enjoy a Free For All PUG queue with no teams. That'd be a riot. Call it Solaris arena or something. Let the carnage and face smashing begin.

[Sarlic]

You should see the new shiny mechs running.
People always will be powerhungry. No matter what.
They want to win. Dont care if they need to sacrifice HPs and more.

I say the customisation is one of the flaws.

All stock mechs would be more interesting.