146 replies to this topic

[Vassago Rain]

Apnu, on 10 December 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

Pay 2 Win is paying money to get an advantage that nobody but other players who also pay can have. Putting mechs behind a couple of month paywall is not Pay 2 Win. Its putting food on the devs table and keeping the servers running with power.

As for the Timby and Crow being OP, yeah they're strong mechs. But then they were on the TT too. Its the Battletech ruleset that makes them monsters not solely PGI.

There have been plenty of mechs that weren't OP and were even under powered when released for MC (Hello pre-quirk Wolverine). So calling P2W on PGI because of the Timby and Crow while ignoring all the mediocre to bad mechs in packs or heroes doesn't fit, IMO. Eventually everybody will get all the mechs (but the heroes) for free, so the Timby isn't P2W.
Also, I see Timbies falling right and left on the battlefield, I have been since they came out. Its not like they're made of gold ammo, or get better host-state rewind, or whatever to make them better. They just sit at a great confluence of weight and tech, that's all.

Putting the best robots behind a paywall is P2W. I'm sorry you can't understand this, but it is.

It's the whole definition of P2W. Imagine if in another shooter, the best armor and the best guns were behind a paywall for 6 months. People who paid for them would have a huge advantage. Just like in MWO.

[AlmightyAeng]

Vassago Rain, on 10 December 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

Putting the best robots behind a paywall is P2W. I'm sorry you can't understand this, but it is.

It's the whole definition of P2W. Imagine if in another shooter, the best armor and the best guns were behind a paywall for 6 months. People who paid for them would have a huge advantage. Just like in MWO.

In that case can we increase the armor on my new Crab?

[mekabuser]

Ghost Badger, on 10 December 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

And you're still here because...ForumWarrior is fun?

still here is a relative term.. I used to "be here" frequently, i stop by once a month or so to see whats up.. Seemed like the perfect topic, and the perfect time to offer my perfect insight.

[Fut]

Vassago Rain, on 10 December 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

That's totally pay to win, dude. Locking all the best items behind a paywall for 6 months, while refusing to nerf or tamper with said items during that timeframe is so P2W, it'd make nexon proud.

Sorry, but you're using some altered definition for "P2W". Buying one of the new packs of Mechs doesn't even guarantee that you'll do better than people who haven't bought them, so in no way could they be considered "Pay 2 Win".

Vassago Rain, on 10 December 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

Who says I'm not having fun casually farming XL crabs? This is a thread about a bad business model, not one where you attack people who have valid points with the tired, old 'if you're not having fun, go do something else.'

I have more hours in KOF13 this year than I do mechwarrior.

Well, you did sarcastically say "That was fun, wasn't it?" in the post I quoted above. Sorry if i took that as you not having fun.
Sure, this thread is about a "bad business model" but it's using falsities to "prove" that the business model is bad... Basically the thread is a sham.

MWO isn't P2W. It's just really isn't.

Vassago Rain, on 10 December 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

Putting the best robots behind a paywall is P2W. I'm sorry you can't understand this, but it is.

It's the whole definition of P2W. Imagine if in another shooter, the best armor and the best guns were behind a paywall for 6 months. People who paid for them would have a huge advantage. Just like in MWO.

Who says that they are the "Best"?
Look at all the threads claiming that new Mechs are DOA.. Do those people think that they're the best?

Edited by Fut, 10 December 2014 - 10:46 AM.

[Bront]

Vassago Rain, on 10 December 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

Putting the best robots behind a paywall is P2W. I'm sorry you can't understand this, but it is.

It's the whole definition of P2W. Imagine if in another shooter, the best armor and the best guns were behind a paywall for 6 months. People who paid for them would have a huge advantage. Just like in MWO.

Behind a perma-paywall? P2W. Behind an early access paywall? That's not. You're missing what he's talking about.

[Walluh]

Anyone who thinks this game is P2W has never seen a P2W game. Seriously.

[Apnu]

Vassago Rain, on 10 December 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

Putting the best robots behind a paywall is P2W. I'm sorry you can't understand this, but it is.

It's the whole definition of P2W. Imagine if in another shooter, the best armor and the best guns were behind a paywall for 6 months. People who paid for them would have a huge advantage. Just like in MWO.

I don't own a single clan mech. Not for c-bills or for MC. I don't think TBRs and SCRs are the "best". I think the best mech is the one the player is most successful in. I have no problems dropping against them, and I have no problems taking them down, or mitigating their impact against me.

The definition of P2W is putting something behind a paywall that always stays behind a paywall that gives that player an advantage nobody else can have.

If we had Thunder munitions or Long Toms for MC only, that wold be pay to win. Just like WoT's Gold Ammo.

You have to understand, if you want to play this game for free, someone has to pony up $ to keep the game servers running. If Timbers stayed MC, or if all the mechs who were acquired for MC were all better than c-bill versions, I'd agree. But they aren't. There are plenty of trash mechs that were behind the MC paywall and nobody complained.

P2W means you keep the best for real life dollars and gimp the freebies. PGI isn't doing that.

[bluepiglet]

Logan Hawke, on 10 December 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

Be careful not to break your arm.

It's hard not to. Spending hundreds dollars supporting a game only to see it walk down the patch of WoT, desk banging has become increasingly uncontrollable.

[C E Dwyer]

Kirkland Langue, on 10 December 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

2 Biggest issues? Oh that's easy: 1. The Developers. Put way too much effort into spitting out new Mechs and Maps, not nearly enough effort in cleaning up the game to bring it in line with competitors' technology from years ago. Best example of this would be the lack of destructible terrain. It's absurd for MWO to not have at least some destructible terrain. Not to mention the UI, grindfest nature of the game, etc etc. There is no part of this game that couldn't use a major overhaul. 2. The Players. We always complain and then spend money on the game. One or the other would probably be fine, but doing both is just stupid. I'm as guilty as the next person...

The grind of this game is alot less than games like world of Tanks of which you have to be an exceptional player to be able to play above T8 without premium time as for destructable terrain that game is old and has trees you can crush the building don't even get dust knocked off them the same as here, stamping on trees will add nothing to match play its just a gimmick.

The UI does need stream lining though it far less user friendly then the old one

Mister Blastman, on 10 December 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

One of the greatest game manuals I've ever read: http://www.lemonamig...ocs.php?id=1631 The game mechanics were all inferred through the historical recountings. It didn't always come out and shout, "Hey! Do this!" But by reading the stories and illustrations, you could figure it out. And that's what part of gaming should be--having to figure out how to play the game. Falcon 4.0 came with a 500 page manual. Since then it has grown in such complexity you need thousands of pages to explain it. But it doesn't stop us from flying it online. Every Microprose manual, for example, did a fantastic job of giving me what I needed to know to excel at their simulations. And some of the best games don't come with manuals at all. They expect you to figure them out as you go along. Chess comes to mind first as one of the best ones of all time.

finest hour also happens to be one of the best games ever created

[Logan Hawke]

I like your hatred and desperate screaming about a game that has apparently touched you in a very, very bad place (your wallet)

Thinking that they waited until they were going Cbill to do the first major clan fix is a rather entertaining conspiracy theory. Would have made loads more sense if they waited until the Direwolf was released for Cbills. Because, and I know this might be hard to remember, the cutefox, overheat, and bummoner were never good. Saying that it was pay to win because 3 of the first wave clan mechs over performed and it took them a couple months to fix it is... well, entertaining. That's what I'll go with. Especially considering how abysmal clan wave 2 has been as far as 'OPness' goes. Pretty sure it doesn't go hand in hand with your theory. There's nothing advantage-wise to get people to buy into wave 2.

Edited by Marvyn Dodgers, 10 December 2014 - 04:45 PM.
Language/unconstructive in quote

[Bront]

To put other games in MWO terms for Pay2Win:
- Gold Mech Ammo, carries twice as much per ton, does double damage, and does double range.
- Armory: Items can be purchased with real money and put into your armory. Each item gives you armor and damage buffs to what you do on the field.
- Premium Mechs: These mechs run cooler, faster, and can mount more weapons than others because they get to break mech building rules.

MWO has done no such thing. No, all you get for your money is pay for early access.

Now, were the Wave 1 Clans superior to IS mechs? Yes for the most part when released. Have they made game adjustments to fix that? Yes. Look at what's happened with wave 2, where the mechs have been received with a "Meh". Is the Ice Ferret P2W?

MWO is not pay to win, nor is it aimed at being such. It may cross that barrier temporarily, but it's not PGI's intent, and they seem to correct it as quickly as they can (particularly since the IGP split). Pay to win means you pay money for a significant advantage over your opponent. MWO is more of a "Pay to avoid Grind" and "Pay for Early Access" Model.

Edited by Marvyn Dodgers, 10 December 2014 - 04:47 PM.
Unconstructive/language in quote

[mike29tw]

Bront, on 10 December 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Behind a perma-paywall? P2W. Behind an early access paywall? That's not. You're missing what he's talking about.

I guess WoT wasn't P2W either.

They removed the gold ammo after all, right?
That totally means that the game wasn't P2W during the period when they sold gold ammo, right?

[Astrocanis]

Mawai, on 10 December 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

snip

My only comment relates to hit registration. I took my newly-quirked TDR-9S out to play with ER-PPCs on the Caustic practice map. Without fail, hits would fail to register if I group fired. Particularly when stationary and firing at the stationary back of the Awesome on the lip of the cauldron. Two consecutive group shots from two ER-PPCs at 270 yards. Both hit dead center rear CT - no hit, no armor reduction, no rag-doll change. When chain-fired, even fractions of a second apart, they seemed to hit properly.

That's a lot of heat gen for zero damage output.

[Apnu]

Bront, on 10 December 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

MWO is more of a "Pay to avoid Grind" and "Pay for Early Access" Model.

This is the very definition of F2P games. Every other F2P game I've played had this. One can pay to avoid the grind. One can pay and level up fast.

P2W is, as you said, when one can pay to have significant and exclusive advantage over other players. Temporarily putting a OP mech behind a paywall with a bunch of other trash mechs isn't P2W.

mike29tw, on 10 December 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

I guess WoT wasn't P2W either.

They removed the gold ammo after all, right?
That totally means that the game wasn't P2W during the period when they sold gold ammo, right?

Wasn't gold ammo removed because of player outcry and not because of policy?

PGI removes the paywall to the TBRs as a matter of policy. That's the difference.

Astrocanis, on 10 December 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

My only comment relates to hit registration. I took my newly-quirked TDR-9S out to play with ER-PPCs on the Caustic practice map. Without fail, hits would fail to register if I group fired. Particularly when stationary and firing at the stationary back of the Awesome on the lip of the cauldron. Two consecutive group shots from two ER-PPCs at 270 yards. Both hit dead center rear CT - no hit, no armor reduction, no rag-doll change. When chain-fired, even fractions of a second apart, they seemed to hit properly.

That's a lot of heat gen for zero damage output.

Sounds to me like you found a bug. Did you log a support ticket for it?

[Torgun]

mike29tw, on 10 December 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

I guess WoT wasn't P2W either.

They removed the gold ammo after all, right?
That totally means that the game wasn't P2W during the period when they sold gold ammo, right?

I really like how there's a time limit to how long you can hide things behind a paywall until it becomes P2W. A lot of people use the gold ammo of WoT as an example of what is truly P2W. But well since they removed it, then I guess the perfect example of P2W isn't P2W either? For something to be P2W I guess it needs to have been around since the dinosaurs walked the ground and still exist today.

Edited by Torgun, 10 December 2014 - 11:41 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

mike29tw, on 10 December 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

I guess WoT wasn't P2W either.

They removed the gold ammo after all, right?
That totally means that the game wasn't P2W during the period when they sold gold ammo, right?

It's true, man.

WoT was never P2W.
Warthunder was never P2W.
Same with maple story.
Battlefield heroes was also never P2W.

They eventually removed the paywall, which means they were never P2W to begin with. Golds know. Golds are good game designers.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 10 December 2014 - 11:46 AM.

[mike29tw]

Apnu, on 10 December 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

Wasn't gold ammo removed because of player outcry and not because of policy?



PGI removes the paywall to the TBRs as a matter of policy. That's the difference.

Implying that there was no player outcry when TBR was OP and behind a paywall.

Edited by mike29tw, 10 December 2014 - 11:46 AM.

[Kirkland Langue]

MWO currently is more pay2win than WOT was when that game had gold ammo. Even back then you could easily earn lots of gold by participating in CW - far more than enough gold to buy all of your ammo and consumables. Even the Gold Tanks could be purchased with the gold from CW.

As for MWO - there is no gold ammo, but many of the best mechs have either temporarily or permanently locked behind pay-walls. The best consumables in game are locked behind paywalls. There is no way to buy these mechs/consumables using in game funds.

Edited by Kirkland Langue, 10 December 2014 - 11:49 AM.

[bluepiglet]

Vassago Rain, on 10 December 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

It's true, man.

WoT was never P2W.
Warthunder was never P2W.
Same with maple story.
Battlefield heroes was also never P2W.

They eventually removed the paywall, which means they were never P2W to begin with. Golds know. Golds are good game designers.

WarThunder is actually the least P2W game I have played. But Gaijin made it really grindy....almost as half grindy as MWO.....And since it has more or less linear tech trees, that game has also become quite frustrating.

Edited by bluepiglet, 10 December 2014 - 11:50 AM.

[Tombstoner]

Vassago Rain, on 10 December 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

It's true, man.

WoT was never P2W.
Warthunder was never P2W.
Same with maple story.
Battlefield heroes was also never P2W.

They eventually removed the paywall, which means they were never P2W to begin with. Golds know. Golds are good game designers.

I love how people have been twisting the definition of P2W. Its not P2W ...its pay for early access.... o that make sense... as your early access timber wolf guts my stalker.... funny how clan tech got tweaked just as the first early access.. I mean pay to win clan mechs become available for in game cash.... During that period i stopped playing in protest... i will be dammed if im gonna be fodder for that kind of business model.

One that grants early access to better tech and then nerfs that tech just as i can get it for free..... no thank you.