180 replies to this topic

[Wiley Coyote]

Patience, young grasshopper, patience.

[Alaric Wolf Kerensky]

To all the people saying it is 'balanced' to double armor and leave ammunition the same, realize that it will only encourage more energy weapon (in particular medium laser) boating. Good luck taking 'Mechs down with that ultra-heavy AC/20 with limited ammo, when 4 medium lasers do the job just as well, if not better.

[GHQCommander]

John Hartson, on 27 June 2012 - 04:52 AM, said:

I started this topic not only because I saw the leaked beta footage. It is something that already came to my mind when i saw the Mechlab-Video which was released by PGI.

The Hunchback in the video has 320 points of armor. A Hunchback has only 160 points of armor in the Table Top game.

For one ton of AC/20 Ammo the Hunchback got 5 rounds in the video. It is the same amount in the Table Top game.

So you're supposed shoot off the double amount of armor with the standard amount of ammo.

Same problem for a Catapult. You can no longer do your job as a support mech after firing 8 volleys with your LRMs. You don't know if your missiles hit anything and if they hit someone you have to punch through double armor.

Tell me what you think! Less Armor? More Ammo? No changes?

If this is how it will be on release (it may not be) then they will have good reason for it. We know nothing and can say little until you know the entire balance of the game.

[Silversteel]

Alaric Wolf Kerensky, on 27 June 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

To all the people saying it is 'balanced' to double armor and leave ammunition the same, realize that it will only encourage more energy weapon (in particular medium laser) boating. Good luck taking 'Mechs down with that ultra-heavy AC/20 with limited ammo, when 4 medium lasers do the job just as well, if not better.

We only can see the Armor value, no one has ever seen how much damage the weapons make. Maybe its same ammo but double dmg? We dont have a clue the only thing we know is they doubled the armor value and that is probably to make fights longer and for balance reasons the bigger the number you work with the better u can fine tune.

[Huscarl]

It's clear to me that ammo needs to be doubled, or ammo weight halved, especially with 12 mechs on the field for each team, will 10 shots with an AC20 even bring a medium mech down? Assuming he's dancing around and you're hitting him a bit randomly.

Needs sorted. I'm not an LRM specialist but I can see how that'd be a huge issue, I'm an AC/Gauss jockey and I'm highly concerned.

[Kenyon Burguess]

i dont think theres an issue. TT was random dice rolls for hits and a lot of missing. MWO will be aimed fire at one point of a mech repeatedly by a player. i get the impression the extra armor is to provide you withan actual chance to play. otherwise that G-model hunchback will one shot everything short of an atlas marching across a map. that wouldnt be fun at all. as for the extra ammo, that shouldnt be a problem either. 2-3 lances on the field at once firing weapons. coordinated fire will bring the assault mechs down and you can spend your ammo in short bursts.

Edited by Geist Null, 27 June 2012 - 07:43 AM.

[Rixx]

Alaric Wolf Kerensky, on 27 June 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

To all the people saying it is 'balanced' to double armor and leave ammunition the same, realize that it will only encourage more energy weapon (in particular medium laser) boating. Good luck taking 'Mechs down with that ultra-heavy AC/20 with limited ammo, when 4 medium lasers do the job just as well, if not better.

wrong
The lasers will create more heat, and since lasers aren't fire and forget, the damage gets spread around more so than with an AC shot. Beyond that, there could be other issues at play. Lasers may not shake a target much while a AC 20 could send that mech to the ground for all we know. There is also recycle rates to take into account. If the AC20 can cycle faster than the medium lasers, again, things change.

Like others have said, until we can play, or have more contcrete data to look at, we really can't tell.

[Voyager I]

Vharsin, on 27 June 2012 - 07:09 AM, said:

Something everyone seems to be forgetting, you aren't going to be the only person shooting at someone all of the time.

Yes genius, but you've also got to have ammo left to kill their teammates.

[Voss Korgan]

This will undeniably break the balance of the game if left unchecked. Ballistic weapons will be unfairly nerfed to the point that they will hold little advantage over energy. Weapons that in TT could one shot crit, will now need to 2 shot crit making the impact of that weapon lessen and with half the ammo. This also means, if you have perfect aim, you can only inflict half the amount of damage the whole match than would be allowed in TT, where energy will again not have this limitation. Dreadful if true.

Edited by Voss Korgan, 27 June 2012 - 08:08 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Phasics, on 27 June 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

how bout we actually wait to play on the 7th of Aug and see if this is even an issue first ?

You really dont, you know the damage of the weapon (based on TT) how much ammo it has (based on TT) and it wouldnt be a gigantic leap to figure out that ammo based weapon systems will be less viable than energy weapons given the fact that theyll run out of ammo in some situations before doing significant damage

Rixx, on 27 June 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

wrong
The lasers will create more heat, and since lasers aren't fire and forget, the damage gets spread around more so than with an AC shot. Beyond that, there could be other issues at play. Lasers may not shake a target much while a AC 20 could send that mech to the ground for all we know. There is also recycle rates to take into account. If the AC20 can cycle faster than the medium lasers, again, things change.

Like others have said, until we can play, or have more concrete data to look at, we really can't tell.

Medium lasers are dot weapons and dont cycle

Edited by 514yer, 27 June 2012 - 08:13 AM.

[Lonestar1771]

Skoll Lokeson, on 27 June 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:

Maybe it's just a different scale. 1 BT:TT armor point = 2 MWO armor points.

Changing the speedometer on a car from mph to kph doen't make the car faster or give a driver an unfare advantage as far I know.

I don't know why the armor value is "doubled", but it dosen't have to mean that the armor can absorb twice the damage.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Just because they are trying to stay close to the TT rules doesn't mean they will all carry over in a manner that works. There are gonna be tweaks to the rules to make the game faster paced and fun as well as balanced. For all we know they could have doubled the weapon damage already and then doubled the Armor value to balance it.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Silversteel, on 27 June 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

We only can see the Armor value, no one has ever seen how much damage the weapons make. Maybe its same ammo but double dmg? We dont have a clue the only thing we know is they doubled the armor value and that is probably to make fights longer and for balance reasons the bigger the number you work with the better u can fine tune.

Unless they double the amount of damage the weapons do (thereby negating the need for doubled armor) then there will be an issue

[Lonestar1771]

514yer, on 27 June 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

You really dont, you know the damage of the weapon (based on TT) how much ammo it has (based on TT) and it wouldnt be a gigantic leap to figure out that ammo based weapon systems will be less viable than energy weapons given the fact that theyll run out of ammo in some situations before doing significant damage.

Umm this isn't the table top... not everything is going to carry over the same way.

514yer, on 27 June 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

Medium lasers are dot weapons and dont cycle

You're right they don't cycle. They recharge, which for all intents and purposes of his post is the same thing as cycling.

[Jensen]

Many people in my online gaming group are in the beta playing now. I know from talking to them that this is an issue. The game is being called laser boat online. The reality is, there is no reason they can't spread the damage the same way it is in the TT game, which solves the problem. A bullet does not always hit exactly where the scope is sighted. They could run the same calculations that the TT games has, and damage in the same manner. Then, adjust only that which needs to be adjusted on a per mech basis to ensure roles. WOT has shell dispersion. There is no reason it can't be done here.

[Voss Korgan]

Even doubling the ammo does not solve the problem unless they doubled internals as well as armor (due to ammo explosions). This could be a huge issue. Hope you are listening PGI!

Edited by Voss Korgan, 27 June 2012 - 08:24 AM.

[autogyro]

If ammo is doubled, does that mean Mechs explode with the force of a thousand suns when they get an ammo explosion?

Edited by autogyro, 27 June 2012 - 08:26 AM.

[Jason Phoenix]

autogyro, on 27 June 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

If ammo is doubled, does that mean Mechs explode with the force of a thousand suns when they get an ammo explosion?

Makes sens... A small price to pay to be able to be useful in a Support Mech it seems.

[veretax]

Did the universe time flow skip? I feel this thread and many of the replies have been here before.


I agree with others, wait till the game is released before jumping to conclusions.

[Zarkus]

This is one of those math problems that is figured out on the back of an envelope. Allowing it to get as far as making code changes is a waste of development time. Armor is doubled to extend life expectancy; this is not in dispute. Weapon damage will not be doubled, assuming life expectancy is the goal.

Therefore, if weapons are doing the same damage but the amount of damage they need to do is doubled for the same result, then energy weapons will generate more heat over the course of a match (in aggregate), and projectile weapons will use more ammo (the amount of heat they generate is negligible). Heat has its own dissipation mechanic, so energy weapons are fine. That leaves the ammo problem.

Those looking at the leaked beta footage and showing concern that ammo will be critically short for standard allotments are right to do so.

[Sierra19]

Like was stated earlier, in the TT game things like AC's spread their damage all over the mech, in this game, you can aim, so that 20 points from the AC20 are going to go to the same spot. 20 points to the same spot ANYWHERE on ANY mech will either severely damage it, cripple it, or destroy it, so giving extra armor is a way to balance that all out. And for those wanting to kit out their mechs with just lasers, you are going to have hardpoint and weight restrictions to deal with, plus that niggling issue of heat management.