165 replies to this topic

[The Dancing Joker]

Not really a Community Warfare topic.

[Sandpit]

oldradagast, on 16 December 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

If you have to ask who the top level players are, you aren't one of them.

so in other words, you're just talking to be talking

oldradagast, on 16 December 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

.

But sure, let's keep on pretending people like Lords, etc. are actually running nothing but Clans because they "want the challenge" and trying not to win.

uh huh
And all the other units that win just as much as Lords that are using IS mechs? Even the ones that beat the Lords?
Guess they don't count....

oldradagast, on 16 December 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

A history lesson: The Clans went from winning 90% of games to 73% (old post: https://twitter.com/...040393781686273) to no doubt less post-quirks. Still, even if Clans are winning 55% that still means they are superior.
As far as I know, there's no up to date data on Clan win ratios, but it is still laughable to claim that they are "weak."

sooo
you don't have any data regarding this and CW is what you're saying

oldradagast, on 16 December 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

All that IS known is the better players and teams - the people who are in it to win - are playing Clans.

uh huh...
So nobody playing an IS faction is "in it to win it"

I'm just pointing out that you have no data to backup anything you've said. Your opinion is one thing, trying to represent that as factual is another.

I take it you're not "in it to win it" since you have a dragon next to your name then?

[oldradagast]

Sandpit, you of all people shoul

Sandpit, on 16 December 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

so in other words, you're just talking to be talking


uh huh
And all the other units that win just as much as Lords that are using IS mechs? Even the ones that beat the Lords?
Guess they don't count....


sooo
you don't have any data regarding this and CW is what you're saying


uh huh...
So nobody playing an IS faction is "in it to win it"

I'm just pointing out that you have no data to backup anything you've said. Your opinion is one thing, trying to represent that as factual is another.

I take it you're not "in it to win it" since you have a dragon next to your name then?

So... do you have any data to support your position that Clan mechs and IS mechs are balanced? Nope... that's what I thought.

I guess you're just "talking to be talking" Good luck with that.

Edited by oldradagast, 16 December 2014 - 06:54 PM.

[Sandpit]

oldradagast, on 16 December 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

Sandpit, you of all people shoul

So... do you have any data to support your position that Clan mechs and IS mechs are balanced? Nope... that's what I thought.

I guess you're just "talking to be talking" Good luck with that.

Where did I ever state "It's a FACT that clans and IS are balanced"?
Oh
I didn't...

See I don't try to pass my opinion off as factual evidence.

I don't state "data shows" when I don't have or know the data to prove it. see the difference in that and

oldradagast, on 16 December 2014 - 06:21 PM, said:

Oh, and for the record, the top level players are running nothing but Stormcrows and Timberwolves,

and

oldradagast, on 16 December 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

All that IS known is the better players and teams - the people who are in it to win - are playing Clans.

and

oldradagast, on 16 December 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

Still, even if Clans are winning 55% that still means they are superior.

as if your opinion on the situation is some sort of scientific factual evidence





You still didnt' answer my question





Since your Kurita, does that mean you're not "in it to win it"?

[oldradagast]

Sandpit:

All you've done is replace facts with your opinions. Heck, half the time you can't even read what's written - taking quotes out of context is a cute trick, but nobody falls for that anymore.

Again, where is your proof that IS and Clan are balanced?

Anything else you post is noise... and I expect more noise.

I think my point is proven listening to you echo chamber out. Have a nice life, smart guy - I've got better things to do than waste my breath on you.

Edited by oldradagast, 16 December 2014 - 07:07 PM.

[Sandpit]

oldradagast, on 16 December 2014 - 07:05 PM, said:

Sandpit:

All you've done is replace facts with your opinions. Heck, half the time you can't even read what's written - taking quotes out of context is a cute trick, but nobody falls for that anymore.

Again, where is your proof that IS and Clan are balanced?

Anything else you post is noise... and I expect more noise.

I think my point is proven listening to you echo chamber out. Have a nice life, smart guy - I've got better things to do than waste my breath on you.

Where did I once say IS and Clan are balanced?

You should take your own advice on noise dude.

[Alex Warden]

crustydog, on 16 December 2014 - 01:39 AM, said:

Lucky for everyone here, I do have a working solution for this problem. The answer is obviously that we should force the IS to start using more Clan weapons in IS mechs so as to weaken those IS forces and bring balance back to this battlefield.

muhahaha, i´d like this "solution"... let´s do it

seriously though: can´t wait for IS ssrm 4/6, ermedlasers, and mrms...

Edited by Alex Warden, 16 December 2014 - 07:30 PM.

[Fenris Ulfr]

OK so TW, SCR, DW are good rest of clan mechs are meh sooo

Thunderbolt ERPPc, Thunderbolt Wub, Firestarter Small pulse, Fire Stater ML/MG, Fire Starter Med Pulse, Awsome ERPPC, Battle Master Wub, Bansee Wub, Banshee Daka, King Crab, Griffin SRM, Shadow Hawk, Jenners, Spiders, Hunchbacks, Dragon ac5, . . . .

all strong mechs not weak at all infact it would appear Is can field plenty of decent robots compared to clanners who get 3 good ones and some decent ones. will be nice and say clan has 6 decent robots.

[MechWarrior5152251]

OP is forgetting the clans greatest advantage. Speed. The Timberwolf is the top mech in MWO because it runs 89kph. When the Firemoth arrives it will be the end of IS light domination.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

I feel compelled to add my two cents to this discussion. I'm a PUGger, I'm not a great pilot (yet ); but I have run my share of matches in both IS and Clan 'Mechs.

The best way I can describe the way they compare ad play is... different. I actually think they are pretty well balanced. I also think that there are so many proponents for both sides shows that they are in fact pretty well balanced.

The thing is, they play very differently, and that's good. We don't want them to be he same. If the Devs tried to linearly balance Clan and IS we'd end up with a very boring game where no choices are meaningful. Instead, they set it up so that the 2 different "techs" play very differently: a "if you want this, you have to give up that" situation.

Isn't that what balance is all about?

[FupDup]

911 Inside Job, on 16 December 2014 - 08:18 PM, said:

OP is forgetting the clans greatest advantage. Speed. The Timberwolf is the top mech in MWO because it runs 89kph. When the Firemoth arrives it will be the end of IS light domination.

The Fire Moth is 20 tons...

I somehow doubt a 20 tonner would overtake the 30-35 ton lights.



Now, the Arctic Cheetah would certainly be an amazing Clan light that could stand up to its IS overlords.

Edited by FupDup, 16 December 2014 - 08:44 PM.

[Brody319]

FupDup, on 16 December 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

The Fire Moth is 20 tons...

I somehow doubt a 20 tonner would overtake the 30-35 ton lights.



Now, the Arctic Cheetah would certainly be an amazing Clan light that could stand up to its IS overlords.

one mech to rule them all
Piranha.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Fenris Ulfr, on 16 December 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

OK so TW, SCR, DW are good rest of clan mechs are meh sooo

Thunderbolt ERPPc, Thunderbolt Wub, Firestarter Small pulse, Fire Stater ML/MG, Fire Starter Med Pulse, Awsome ERPPC, Battle Master Wub, Bansee Wub, Banshee Daka, King Crab, Griffin SRM, Shadow Hawk, Jenners, Spiders, Hunchbacks, Dragon ac5, . . . .

all strong mechs not weak at all infact it would appear Is can field plenty of decent robots compared to clanners who get 3 good ones and some decent ones. will be nice and say clan has 6 decent robots.

It doesn't really matter how many decent mechs the IS has. The problem is that the best of the Clan mechs are far, far better than the best of the IS mechs. Even the mediocre Clan mechs are about on par with most of the IS fleet, and those will be getting quirks too.

[Tahribator]

Oh wow, somebody actually thinks the Vindicator is up there with the Clans with its 40% PPC speed bonus. That's it folks, bring as many Vindis as you can and you can get those clanners pack up and go back!

Even with the quirks, there's nothing matching on the IS that can stand against a constant stream of SCR/SCR/SCR/TBR or other combinations with the HBR and MDD, considering equal skills. The Clans can have overwhelming firepower and tank on the battlefield. The IS side has to bring Assaults to even have a chance against these Clan heavies, and by doing that they have to field lights, which remove considerable firepower and armor from the field.

Most of the ridiculously quirked IS 'Mechs are also notorious glass cannons that can be taken care of easily, with the exception of the TDR. Would you put a HBK-4P on par with a SCR on CW maps? DRG-1N is a monster when left alone, but it's also a ridiculously easy 'Mech to disable. The same can't be said for the SCR, HBR, TBR or MDD. These 'Mechs have insane survivability and do a ridiculous amount of damage until they go down.

The thing is, the IS vs Clan balancing has been mostly done for the solo/group queue, where there are class limits. 3xSCR's on a team does not have the same impact as 12xSCR's on a team. CW has no balancing mechanisms except the 240T rule and that rule supposes the IS vs Clan balance is perfect. It's not.

Edited by Tahribator, 17 December 2014 - 03:00 AM.

[pwnface]

oldradagast, on 16 December 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

If you have to ask who the top level players are, you aren't one of them.

But sure, let's keep on pretending people like Lords, etc. are actually running nothing but Clans because they "want the challenge" and trying not to win.

This is a pretty weak argument as HoL chose Clan Jade Falcon before CW was ever released. Factions didn't really matter when all matches were mixed IS and Clan tech. I'm not saying the Clan mechs aren't stronger than IS mechs, I'm just saying your argument is pretty bad.

oldradagast, on 16 December 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

Still, even if Clans are winning 55% that still means they are superior.

Where does player skill come into play? Are we just assuming (probably incorrectly) that IS players and Clan players are of equivalent skill? It follows that GENERALLY, players who are willing to spend real money to purchase in game goods are more invested in the game. This means they probably play more on average than non-paying players. I think it is a given that the more you play the better you will get.

[pwnface]

People talk about IS vs Clan mechs in Community Warfare as if the mechs are in a vacuum. They are not. Sure in a 1v1 timberwolf / stormcrow will likely beat IS mechs in the same weight class. This game mode isn't a 1v1 though.

I think most people would agree that a TBR is better than a DRG-1N in a 1v1 situation. The scenario completely changes though if the TBR/DRG has a supporting brawler mech. An Atlas + DRG-1N combination is more deadly than an Atlas + TBR combination. You can't ignore the Atlas pushing directly at you in brawl range because it will literally wreck any mech in 2/3 alphas, but if you focus the Atlas you give the DRG-1N free reign of 18 DPS to wreck you just as quickly. While a TBR is likely better for a 1v1 fight, it can't come close to putting out the kind of damage output of a DRG-1N or even a TDR-5SS.

[Lily from animove]

The more I read replies by most IS guys the more I think IS is hopeless lost.
Sticking with old habits, trying to outsnipe clanners with lasers and PPC's.

If you don't get you poop together to finally gear up and leave old 12vs12 habits you will never stand a chance. There are some things the IS cna do way better than clanners, things you haveto use, but your old ways of thinking make you stuck with the wrong tactics and stuff.

go back to the mechlab build a proper mech. The current maps have soem very distinct featurs favouring a few chassis and their harpoints. If you can't open your mind for new things, you will keep being bad.


Yes I still want balance amongst the clanners, 3 are too strong, some a re pointless. The day I can drop in 4x Nova dropdekc without beign a liabilty for my team is the days PGI balanced right. But unless that day comes, I conna timberdown whoever comes across my way.
The Nova suffers the same problem as the Dragon did + it has squishy medium Hitpoints. And all it got? some poor heatquirks -.- truly amazing since heta was an issue for newbie pilots but not ecperienced pilots. But no one needs a mech that pops by any scratch being wifde as an atlas and unable to twist any damage away.

PGI can not fix bad hitboxes and hardpoints, they come y the lore desigg. But they fix anything else.

It is funny to think about this, since the TT never took geometry into account, yet it gave already lore strong mechs even the Shooter game strong gemetry. Weird randomness coming together here.

Edited by Lily from animove, 17 December 2014 - 04:05 AM.

[Kmieciu]

pwnface, on 17 December 2014 - 03:11 AM, said:

People talk about IS vs Clan mechs in Community Warfare as if the mechs are in a vacuum. They are not. Sure in a 1v1 timberwolf / stormcrow will likely beat IS mechs in the same weight class. This game mode isn't a 1v1 though.

I think most people would agree that a TBR is better than a DRG-1N in a 1v1 situation. The scenario completely changes though if the TBR/DRG has a supporting brawler mech. An Atlas + DRG-1N combination is more deadly than an Atlas + TBR combination. You can't ignore the Atlas pushing directly at you in brawl range because it will literally wreck any mech in 2/3 alphas, but if you focus the Atlas you give the DRG-1N free reign of 18 DPS to wreck you just as quickly. While a TBR is likely better for a 1v1 fight, it can't come close to putting out the kind of damage output of a DRG-1N or even a TDR-5SS.

And what that does tell you? That only the most absurdy quirked IS mechs have a chance to match a TBR or a SCR.
I drop with TDR-5SS, TDR-9S, Dragon-1N and Hunchback-4SP because they have unbelievable quirks. 4SP has 15 DPS from SRMs alone.

But I cannot count how many joke builds I see on the IS side. Almost every IS mech that does not use quirks is a joke compared to the meta TBR/SCR. And I have to carry those jokers when I PUG. While the Clanners can just field more SCR/TBR.

[oldradagast]

Kmieciu, on 17 December 2014 - 04:09 AM, said:

And what that does tell you? That only the most absurdy quirked IS mechs have a chance to match a TBR or a SCR.
I drop with TDR-5SS, TDR-9S, Dragon-1N and Hunchback-4SP because they have unbelievable quirks. 4SP has 15 DPS from SRMs alone.

But I cannot count how many joke builds I see on the IS side. Almost every IS mech that does not use quirks is a joke compared to the meta TBR/SCR. And I have to carry those jokers when I PUG. While the Clanners can just field more SCR/TBR.

I agree, though as various trolls on this thread and others have claimed, we're to believe that the Clans are not somewhat more powerful. I'm sure that the reason that they are basically everywhere is purely because of roleplaying or something... lol

Clan Advantages: Higher speed for everything but light mechs, significantly more firepower, and significantly more DPS.

Clan Drawbacks: Slower lights, somewhat less pinpoint damage, and forced mid-level durability (more durable than IS with XL's, less than IS with standards.)

Interestingly, even one of their "drawbacks" - all Clan mechs move together in a more narrow speed range) - is actually an advantage in the current CW mode since the goal is to bum-rush a target point or rush together to defend it.

I wouldn't say that they are "broken," but it is absurd to claim that they don't have an edge - just look at what people are playing, and when dealing with folks who care only about winning, they'll go Clan every time even if it's only 55% vs. 45% in their favor.

Edited by oldradagast, 17 December 2014 - 04:17 AM.

[Good_Cat]

The TiberWolf is a versatile mech but the IS can go build for build against it, quirks can tip the balance in their favour drastically.
Good builds on the TiberWolf edit (clan mechs in general) are nearly always hampered by locked equipment slots, poor heat management low ammunition supplies. These builds are nearly always bettered on the quirked IS mechs.

Its got great weapon hardpoint placements which are superior to IS in some situations.
If you allow the TiberWolf edit (clan mechs in general) to dictate the battle and use his strengths expect to get owned.

I see a lot of great IS mechs wth either s**t builds or poor pilots.

Complaining that clans are OP because 8 TiberWolf's and 4 StormCrows attacking as a pack at 89.1kph who have chosen a mainly brawl loadout
vs
your random selection of LRM Atlas's, XL engine Stalkers, rushing the generator with gauss Jagaers and ER Large laser blackjacks strung over 2 grid squares out due to speed differences and wondering why it fails.

The reason you see 8 TiberWolf's and 4 StormCrows attacking - why would i take anything over a Tiberwolf or a StormCrow. Summoner? Nova? Ice Ferret? Mist Lynx? Gargoyle? ummm why !!

Edited by Good_Cat, 17 December 2014 - 05:23 AM.