38 replies to this topic

[Zeleglok]

The problem's simple : if many, many players attack a single planet, especially when they form in large groups - enough defenders can't be found. So, those attackers get into a match where they have to invade an empty base ( defend + zero enemies seems to occur as well ). That's an autowin and a point for attackers.

The proposed solution is :
1) Winning an attack / successful defence worth a point. Sides can change, so we play hold territory or counter attacks, but still : 1 WIN = 1 POINT. Instantly. That's necessary to make a draw possible.
2) Each planet has a timer saying when the last ACTIVE match ( with both sides present ) , which was won by defenders (?) , occured. If somebody attacks the planet and they don't find defenders in time - ok, they get into a match with no enemy team. But if nobody defends the planet for, say, LESS than 2-3 hours - this match results into a DRAW regardless of attackers' actions. If nobody defends for MORE than 2-3 hours - this match can be WON by attackers.

The possible positive results are :
1) It's no more possible to grind points by fighing an empty base with lots of ppl attacking - you have to beat defenders if there are some.
2) It's not possible for defenders to protect the planet from capping by ignoring it - the timer ticks and you have to show up to prevent grinding empty base.

The thing i'm not sure about :
Only matches won by defenders reset the timer. There's more to discuss about it. Really.

Edited by Zeleglok, 16 December 2014 - 05:54 AM.

[pwnface]

I think a better solution is to have autowin attacks be worth 1/4 or 1/5 of an actual attack/defend point. That way even if a defending faction is outnumbered, they can still hold a planet if they actually win their defenses. If you are able to attack a planet you should be able to at least contribute toward taking it over even if there are no defenders available.

[AlmightyAeng]

Wait wait wait...so you're saying...if a whole lot of people attack a single place, and they outnumber the defenders, the defenders get overwhelmed and lose?!?!

That sounds almost like warfare!

Edited by Ghost Badger, 16 December 2014 - 01:26 PM.

[Felix7007]

I feel like if I really want something and no one is there to stop me, I should have it.

[pwnface]

Ghost Badger, on 16 December 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

Wait wait wait...so you're saying...if a whole lot of people attack a single place, and they outnumber the defenders, the defenders get overwhelmed and lose?!?!

That sounds almost like warfare!

While this is true, in MWO the defenders aren't being overwhelmed they are non-existent. If 100 people are attacking a planet and 12 are defending, the super realistic approach is to just have a 100 vs 12 match. Since this will never happen, you should at least give the 12 man team a small chance to hold on to a planet if they keep winning every single match.

[Intrepid]

pwnface, on 16 December 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

While this is true, in MWO the defenders aren't being overwhelmed they are non-existent. If 100 people are attacking a planet and 12 are defending, the super realistic approach is to just have a 100 vs 12 match. Since this will never happen, you should at least give the 12 man team a small chance to hold on to a planet if they keep winning every single match.

The defenders do have a small chance to hold the planet if they keep winning.

[Zeleglok]

Ghost Badger, on 16 December 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

Wait wait wait...so you're saying...if a whole lot of people attack a single place, and they outnumber the defenders, the defenders get overwhelmed and lose?!?!
That sounds almost like warfare!

I thought CW was meant to be a hi-end, sportsmanship-kind content where average play level over fraction would decide the result, not online and certainly not number of twinks. With ~20ppl plus twink spam you can make 0 -> 11 in half an hour.

@Felix7007, that's what timer is for. Protecting defenders from getting twink spammed or overwhelmed by online, it still wouldn't allow to ignore the planet. Reduce it to 30 minutes - and some defenders must always be there.

Edited by Zeleglok, 16 December 2014 - 01:49 PM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Zeleglok, on 16 December 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

I thought CW was meant to be a hi-end, sportsmanship-kind content where average play level over fraction would decide the result, not online and certainly not number of twinks. With ~20ppl plus twink spam you can make 0 -> 11 in half an hour.

@Felix7007, that's what timer is for. Protecting defenders from getting twink spammed or overwhelmed by online, it still wouldn't allow to ignore the planet. Reduce it to 30 minutes - and some defenders must always be there.

No idea where you got that definition of CW from. It's not some sort of crappy e-sport.

You don't defend...you don't keep.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 16 December 2014 - 01:50 PM.

[Mystere]

Zeleglok, on 16 December 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

I thought CW was meant to be a hi-end, sportsmanship-kind content where average play level over fraction would decide the result, not online and certainly not number of twinks. With ~20ppl plus twink spam you can make 0 -> 11 in half an hour.

@Felix7007, that's what timer is for. Protecting defenders from getting twink spammed or overwhelmed by online, it still wouldn't allow to ignore the planet. Reduce it to 30 minutes - and some defenders must always be there.

I think that's where you went wrong. This is supposed to be an interstellar war.

[Zeleglok]

Ok, then i have a recipe for you. Join a unit big enough to have 1-2 full dropships near the attack phase end. Everyone create 10-15 smurf accounts. Attack a planet soon before attack phase end having 1 alive man in each drop while others switch to smurfs and attack more and more. NAILED IT.

Btw, this certainly wouldn't work if we had much higher online. But things are as they are.

Edited by Zeleglok, 16 December 2014 - 01:55 PM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Zeleglok, on 16 December 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

Ok, then i have a recipe for you. Join a unit big enough to have 1-2 full dropships near the attack phase end. Everyone create 10-15 smurf accounts. Attack a planet soon before attack phase end having 1 alive man in each drop while others switch to smurfs and attack more and more. NAILED IT.

Btw, this certainly wouldn't work if we had much higher online. But things are as they are.

Well, if you bothered to read the information on how the CW queue worked you'd have seen this from Russ.

Quote

Now full 12 mans and 12 man strike teams that the match maker puts together might have to still wait a little while and this is because the match maker only lets one battle kick off at a time on each planet.

So, much like "omg sync droppers in the solo queue!" quit trying to cause a panic about an unrealistic situation.

[pwnface]

Intrepid, on 16 December 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

The defenders do have a small chance to hold the planet if they keep winning.

That simply isn't the case right now. There can be multiple battle going on for the same planet and if there is only 1 team defending against say 5 attacking teams the defender will fight 1 attacker where the other 4 attacking teams get autowins. Even if the defender wins every single time they will still lose 4 autowin matches to every 1 normal match against a live opponent.

Edited by pwnface, 16 December 2014 - 02:01 PM.

[pwnface]

Ghost Badger, on 16 December 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

Well, if you bothered to read the information on how the CW queue worked you'd have seen this from Russ.

Quote

Now full 12 mans and 12 man strike teams that the match maker puts together might have to still wait a little while and this is because the match maker only lets one battle kick off at a time on each planet.

So, much like "omg sync droppers in the solo queue!" quit trying to cause a panic about an unrealistic situation.

While battles only kick off one at a time, they are only 60 seconds apart. Which means throughout your 30 minute defense, there could be 29 other matches going on for the same planet. This does not mean only one battle per planet at the same time, just that they don't start at the same time.

Edited by pwnface, 16 December 2014 - 02:44 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Numbers matter. I've got no issue with overwhelming attackers rolling defenders. Hire more mercs. Gift them mc to switch factions.

My issue is that it makes all cw fights except the last hour pointless. Defenders can not stack wins like attackers so if you put 120 people in attack queue on the last hour you can flip 0 to 10 and win under the wire.

So why play except in the last hour?

It should be legit that you only get so many freebie wins an hour. Also let defenders grind wins to negative numbers. This means every match has value and you can't just pile the queue at the last minute.

[Zeleglok]

Ghost Badger, on 16 December 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

...

Maybe that's how it is intended to be.
That's how it is.


Btw, sorry for my mistake. You need 2-3 fulldropships - one to keep defenders busy, the others to do what i described. More legal - with high online you can just spam 12-man groups. Don't like it at all too, cause PvP with "online wins" is a korean grinder, not a solid MMO. But at least it isn't abusing game mechanics.

MischiefSC, on 16 December 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

So why play except in the last hour?

Agreed, but there's another topic for this issue

PS : one battle per planet at a time is also a decision, but it's rly bad - you don't let other ppl to participate.

Edited by Zeleglok, 16 December 2014 - 02:16 PM.

[ContingencyPlan]

The frequency of ghost drops bothers me. I can not fathom the idea that this could possibly be an intended feature and I hope that is is ditched entirely and all capture progress made up to that point rolled back. Ghost drops seem like nothing more than the byproduct of a poorly designed queue system. I think that if you queue up for a planet and opponents don't, after a period of time your group should be shuffled to the next available battle on another planet.

anything I can earn points for while afk should not exist in this or any game ever.

[Gas Guzzler]

ContingencyPlan, on 16 December 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

The frequency of ghost drops bothers me. I can not fathom the idea that this could possibly be an intended feature and I hope that is is ditched entirely and all capture progress made up to that point rolled back. Ghost drops seem like nothing more than the byproduct of a poorly designed queue system. I think that if you queue up for a planet and opponents don't, after a period of time your group should be shuffled to the next available battle on another planet.

anything I can earn points for while afk should not exist in this or any game ever.

Unfortunately, if no one defends the planet, no one defends the planet. Which sounds about right to me.

I would like even less being shuffled off to another planet when I am trying to capture a planet. If your plan was enacted, then the best defense would be to simply not defend the planet. How could the attacker ever reach 10 wins if no one defended? For that matter, why defend any planet at all?

[Lyoto Machida]

Ghost Badger, on 16 December 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

No idea where you got that definition of CW from. It's not some sort of crappy e-sport.

You don't defend...you don't keep.

May as well shut CW down and just award it to Davion/Steiner then. No sense actually playing it out when other factions simply dont have as many players in their faction.

[Odins Fist]

Mulitple matches are happening on Planets at the SAME TIME.

So if only 2 Teams/Units are defending and 6 enemy teams/Units attacking....

Well even if they (planet defenders) win it will -4 loss everytime.

Edited by Odins Fist, 16 December 2014 - 02:39 PM.

[pwnface]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 December 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

Unfortunately, if no one defends the planet, no one defends the planet. Which sounds about right to me.

I would like even less being shuffled off to another planet when I am trying to capture a planet. If your plan was enacted, then the best defense would be to simply not defend the planet. How could the attacker ever reach 10 wins if no one defended? For that matter, why defend any planet at all?

The problem is, there ARE people actively defending the planet. Even if we have three 12-man groups coordinating defense for a particular planet AND win 100% of our defense matches, we can still be losing the planet to a force superior in number purely by autowin ghost drops. I can't imagine that this is the system that PGI intends us to use.

If any attacking or defending team queues up for a planet and is unable to find an opposing team it should contribute 1/4 of an attack / defense token. Since it takes up to 15 minutes to find a match, this would limit ghost win grinding to 4 per hour per 12man group. This gives REAL matches against LIVE opponents much more weight in determining the outcome of a planet but still allows attack/defending forces to claim territory if it is being left unattended.