163 replies to this topic

[Undead Bane]

Update: Poll has been added.

Hi everyone!

After viewing some in-game video footage (official and "unofficial" alike) I, as a somewhat walking bipedal machines designer, became concerned with how unrealistic the animation of movement is (to be objective: MW:LL has completely the same issue). The way machines move... Well, they just cannot move this way. Nohow, being it a game or not.

For those, who are not TL;DR ppl, here is a bit of info on how bipedal systems should move, basing on human kinematics.

TL;DR, start to skip here

Spoiler

So, as our machines (mostly) resemble human form, let's look at how a human moves. Here is the picture:


"Movement" is, actually, the process of (heh) moving our CCM to a new point in space. To do that on foot we need to "pick" it up, move it a bit forward and "put" it down there. This is, of course, not anyhow optimal horizontal movement process (we have to lift the CCM, that consumes lots of energy, just moving it horizontally - riding - would be much better), but it is as it is.
In order for our CCM (and us together with them) not to fall down, there must be some sort of support under it, it's our feet. They together form a supporting area, and while we just stand, the CCM is inside this area and we do not fall:

But as we start to move, we need to lift one leg. If we try just to lift it, the situation with supporting area becomes like this:

It is quite obvious, that in this case we would have fallen to the side. To make an experiment, stand upright and then try to lift one leg without moving body or pelvis or hands. You will start to fall to this leg's side the same moment.

So, we need to do something in order to retain our balance and even move forward. And that's where side to side motion comes in play (look at the second part of the first picture). If we (or a mech) had a REALLY wide feet, we could have just moved our CCM over the area of our foot and therefore stay in this position forever, like this:

But having very wide and long feet is incompatible with ability to move and turn, so instead we produce an impulse (push with right leg before lifting it), that moves our CCM to the side of a still standing leg, to compensate momentum, that we get from CCM being to the side of it.
This movement is quite unnoticable when you walk with wide steps, but becomes way more noticable with narrow steps. Look at this video:

Yes, people do look like penguins here, because penguins do use the same principle for their movement

Completely the same principle goes for the mechs we are to pilot.

TL;DRers, stop skipping here

So, mechs should move from side to side when walking, just a little. And they don't.

How it should look like? Well, at least like at this GIF:


The models of the mechs itselves are more "realistic looking", than the canonic ones, but their movements are pretty same as we had back in MW2 (don't get me wrong, i like the game, but still). And, by the way, MW4 had a bit more proper animation of a bipedal movement:


The lack of this movement makes mech look more catroonish, less realistic, even if you don't know why.

You may say it's a small thing, but the small things are the place the devil hides in

It would be very nice to hear from the developers, if the animations are actually final.

A word from the developers follows:

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The reply of Dennis de Koning in the thread (i felt i should lift it up here):

Believe it or not, there was a lot of discussion and research that went into the animation of the 'Mechs.
Many (most) 'Mechs are humanoid and so scaling cues alone are not enough to make a 'Mech look less like an environmental suit than a giant walking tank. The more animation looks and feels like natural human movement, the harder it is to suspend belief. We wanted the 'Mechs to look like machines, if this means that it has a stiffer gate, then so be it. Also, on a note of balance from the initial post; sway, for the purpose of balance is lessened the faster one moves. In other words, the slower you walk, the more sway is necessary for you to keep balanced. When running (or walking at 60kph), you (and/or a 30-100t 'Mech) will have almost no sway at all; that extra energy will be converted into forward motion instead.
As for the cockpit movement: It is attached to the 'Mech and therefore the movement is a realistic translation. This is necessary because the (exterior) architecture of some 'Mechs is visible from within the cockpit ie, Hunchback, Dragon and others coming down the pipe. Imagine the effects that more sway would have on a users aiming and desire not to puke.

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I, personally, still hope, that the animation will be slightly changed to give us a feeling of a walking machine.

And also, to those, who are afraid that these movements will make you sick: if they are made properly, they won't! And by "properly" I mean, that the amplitude and period of side-to-side cockpit movement should be close to actual human's amplitude while walking. Simple as that! If it is done this way, then our brain automatically filters off this movement, but we still get a more realistic feeling of a walking machine.

UPDATE: General idea on bipedal machine movement

(TL:DR skip #2)

Spoiler

So, as i have promised, here is the basic of how a mech can be animated. But first, a little bit about kinematics.
Human body has more degrees of freedom, than it is required for bipedal movement. Additional degrees of freedom are very usefull, but for a machine every degree is a challenge. So, most likely, mechs have simplified kinematic scheme.
Look at the following picture:

Under 0. you can see, how a human body's feet and pelvis from looks terms of kinematics (already a bit simplified, but still).
In your hip and in your ankle you have 3 degrees of freedom (pictured by ball joints). One of degrees can be removed, so the kinematic scheme transforms to 1. or 2., depending on where you want to leave 3 degrees.

Most likely, it will be scheme 1., as it is much simplier to make additional drive in hip or pelvis - you have more space there. The next picture shows, how phases of a step will look like, basing on this kinematic model:


Here we go. First position - standing.
Second position - is how the system works to lift up a leg. This movement is quite fast to produce impulse high enough to compensate gravity momentum.
Third position - left leg is moving forward, while the impulse is still enough. Notice, that pelvis is still tilted.
And, lastly, the forth position - left leg touches the ground, pelvis becomes horizontal again. After this the process pretty much repeats itself.

Yes, i know, that these pictures are quite schematic, but i made them to give a basic understanding on how the animation should look like.

Also, this is actual only if a machine has a joint in pelvis. Actually, it really should have one, otherwise swaying will be just HUGE, and with this joint it is very minor even for a giant machine. After all, when you walk, you don't notice almost any swaying at all, and that's because of this particular joint.

If there is no join in pelvis, kinematics still can exist, but will look very much different, and swayin will become a problem. I will draw kinematics for this case too, a bit later.

Edited by Undead Bane, 09 July 2012 - 03:55 PM.

[TheSassySquatch]

From the videos I saw the animation is leaps and bounds better than MWLL. That being said, you are correct, they should sway a little. I am not totally put off though, the game still looks amazing.

[BlindProphet]

Have you taken into account that Mechs have gyroscopic stabilizers which are there to keep mechs balanced?

[PirateNixon]

I'd be interested in seeing your visualization of proper mech movement.

[W4rl0ck]

From what I have seen only the outer cockpit is moving, but your head is still. To make it more realistic your head would have to move more and the cockpit would be still relative to your head... even more if your mech accelerates or breaks. But when I think about that I'd probably barf on the keyboard after a few matches.

The moving cockpit is just there to give you some feedback about your movement. I don't think it has to be a physically hundred percent correct simulation of the mech's movement.

Edited by W4rl0ck, 27 June 2012 - 07:34 AM.

[akaChrisHimself]

He's right. From this picture you can see that it's not quite right. Wait...what...

[grimzod]

BlindProphet, on 27 June 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

Have you taken into account that Mechs have gyroscopic stabilizers which are there to keep mechs balanced?

Gyros don't guarantee perfect stability, just that they're less likely to fall over.

Real world stuff Cool:

http://youtu.be/rePNW0_EabY

Edited by grimzod, 27 June 2012 - 07:55 AM.

[Landeraxe]

BlindProphet, on 27 June 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

Have you taken into account that Mechs have gyroscopic stabilizers which are there to keep mechs balanced?

Balanced yes; that's how these oversized monstrosities are able to stand, walk, and maintain balance. A gyro (think 'hips' in humans) won't keep its mass frow swaying side to side with a walking motion.

[SquareSphere]

MWLL had to use a hacked together hybrid object model to even get "walking tanks" to work in the mod engine, not to mention their pilot cam is actually in the mech which means any bob you see in the animation directly translates to the player's view in the cockpit. This lead to MASSIVE cockpit bob on some mechs so much so that it affects playbility.

Honestly, while improved animation might be fun to look at, the more likely story is that they'd suppress most of it while in cockpit view as to reduce cockpit bob

[Erwiin]

Just a small note:

Battletech / MechWarrior isn't real!

Who cares what the 'Mechs look like when they move. Just as long as it looks remotely good is good enough for me.

Enough with the nit-picking!

[Nih]

Undead Bane, on 27 June 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

they just cannot move this way. Nohow, being it a game or not.

Just wanted to nitpick a little...

I don't think that word (cannot) means what you think it means.

The mechs DO move that way. Because it is a game. And it clearly happens. We've seen it in the footage! So I feel pretty safe saying you're not entirely correct in claiming it "cannot" happen.

But I don't disagree with your overall point, I just am not sure that the benefit of appeasing a few people who know what to look for in "realistic" physics based bi-pedal movement is worth all the development work of recreating most of the mech's animations.

[FLAKPANZER]

Kidding, of course....Who would want to apply real-world science to 30 meter tall fictional death machines.....Oh....wait...nevermind:

http://www.escapistm...o-Build-Gundams

[donkeybas]

BlindProphet, on 27 June 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

Have you taken into account that Mechs have gyroscopic stabilizers which are there to keep mechs balanced?

That's what I thought, the sway would be canceled out by stabilizers. It would be kinda idiotic to have a weapon platform NOT stabilized when movement was initiated. Hence why tanks, (that have no legs but still move across rough ground) generally do not fire on the move, still have a stab system that allows them to.

Landeraxe, on 27 June 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:

Balanced yes; that's how these oversized monstrosities are able to stand, walk, and maintain balance. A gyro (think 'hips' in humans) won't keep its mass frow swaying side to side with a walking motion.

Again, modern tanks and aircraft have stab systems that allow them to stabilize the weapon platform to allow fire on the move. A mechs platform would be the torso.

Edited by donkeybas, 27 June 2012 - 07:51 AM.

[Undead Bane]

BIackice, on 27 June 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

From the videos I saw the animation is leaps and bounds better than MWLL. That being said, you are correct, they should sway a little. I am not totally put off though, the game still looks amazing.

Oh, don't get me wrong, i'm not sayin it's bad or something. It's just a thing that makes me feel "something is not right here" and ruins the experience a little. Like a fly in the ointment.

BlindProphet, on 27 June 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

Have you taken into account that Mechs have gyroscopic stabilizers which are there to keep mechs balanced?

Sure thing, i did. As i've said, i'm really a bipedal machines designer The problem is, that to have gyro to stabilize your machine completely it must be VERY big and heavy. So in mechs gyros are mostly used to compensate dynamic loads, not static ones.
BTW, in real life bypedal gyros are not used yet exactly because of their heaviness.

PirateNixon, on 27 June 2012 - 07:29 AM, said:

I'd be interested in seeing your visualization of proper mech movement.

Deal. At first i will make static pictures of key movement phases.

W4rl0ck, on 27 June 2012 - 07:32 AM, said:

From what I have seen only the outer cockpit is moving, but your head is still. To make it more realistic your head would have to move more and the cockpit would be still relative to your head... even more if your mech accelerates or breaks. But when I think about that I'd probably barf on the keyboard after a few matches.

The moving cockpit is just there to give you some feedback about your movement. I don't think it has to be a physically hundred percent correct simulation of the mech's movement.

Sure, the cockpit movements should not be nowhere near how they should be "for real", or everybody will be sick =) Maybe, just unlink them from the model's movements...

[Steffenximus]

I agree with you 100%. MW4 had realistic mech movement. The trailers in MWO left me disappointed. Hope they fix it.

[Undead Bane]

FLAKPANZER, on 27 June 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

Kidding, of course....Who would want to apply real-world science to 30 meter tall fictional death machines.....Oh....wait...nevermind:

http://www.escapistm...o-Build-Gundams

ROFL.

I'm not saying "make it completely real!!!!1111oneone". Just add a little bit of it, for an impression of realism. Noone, myself included, wants the cockpit to move for meters from side to side =)

[Voyager I]

Erwiin, on 27 June 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

Just a small note:

Battletech / MechWarrior isn't real!

Who cares what the 'Mechs look like when they move. Just as long as it looks remotely good is good enough for me.

Enough with the nit-picking!

It's not real, but when they move, they should look like 100 tons of steel rather than plastic figurines.

Look up verisimilitude, and then never use the "it's not real" argument again.

[BarHaid]

W4rl0ck, on 27 June 2012 - 07:32 AM, said:

From what I have seen only the outer cockpit is moving, but your head is still. To make it more realistic your head would have to move more and the cockpit would be still relative to your head... even more if your mech accelerates or breaks. But when I think about that I'd probably barf on the keyboard after a few matches.

The moving cockpit is just there to give you some feedback about your movement. I don't think it has to be a physically hundred percent correct simulation of the mech's movement.

Yeah, the moving cockpit bugs me. I would have preferred to have the cockpit seem stationary, and the view outside bump up and down. As it stands now, it looks like your chair is on springs.

[grimzod]

FLAKPANZER, on 27 June 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

Kidding, of course....Who would want to apply real-world science to 30 meter tall fictional death machines.....Oh....wait...nevermind:

http://www.escapistm...o-Build-Gundams

13 meters tall. For Pho sake.

[Bloody Moon]

@OP Well thought Sir!

As long as it is not overdone i would welcome this change.

Edited by Bloody Moon, 27 June 2012 - 07:58 AM.