209 replies to this topic

[Killstorm999999]

There has been a lot of debate of the zerg rush tactics. One thing I am repeatedly seeing is pro-zergers saying that the anti-zergers need to learn to coordinate with their team and learn tactics to stop the rush. The pro-zegers will dismiss arguments for changing up the objectives by saying things will just be a mindless deathmatch, or if you want deathmatch then get out of CW, or that if you want an easier game then go somewhere else.

These counter-arguments are misguided, as a lot of people against the zerging tactic are against it because it is boring and counter to the desire of having cinematic mech-on-mech battles, not because they are unable to learn or that it is too difficult. Most don't want to replace the zerging tactics with deathmatch, they want to replace the zerging tactics with something more thoughtful.

Edited by Deltron Zero, 17 December 2014 - 08:22 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Deltron Zero, on 17 December 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

These counter-arguments are misguided, as a lot of people against the zerging tactic are against it because it is boring and counter to the desire of having cinematic mech-on-mech battles, not because they are unable to learn or that it is too difficult. Most don't want to replace the zerging tactics with deathmatch, they want to replace the zerging tactics with something more thoughtful.

Well MWO was supposed to be PvP, and not PVE wit some playrs shooting off a few mechs while doing so.
zergrush is a PVE mode, and so does it even belong into a PvP game?

rushign is one thing, a tactic, but whenever a tactic is breaking the whole core of a game it hardly has any point. Yet all those clever guys saiyng "prepare a counter yadda yadaa" I would truly like to see how they can counter a real zergrush of a skilled premade, because that is by the games mechnic not possible.

Some poeple just like to win at whatever it needs even if it has nothign to do with the original game anymore.

Even further it would be a gamebreaker, because when suddenly everyone would do this, planets would never change ownership because the defenders in the counterattack phase would always win as well and bring the attacker points down to a degree where the ownership of a plent never changes.

Edited by Lily from animove, 17 December 2014 - 08:27 AM.

[Kirkland Langue]

well I think zerg rush should be a viable strategy - but that it should take multiple waves of rushing to be successful.

[Savage Wolf]

I need a definition here. What EXACTLY is meant by zerg tactics? Is it any form of trying to push towards the objective and caring less about fighting defenders or are we talking about a wave of 12 lights able to finish the match before it has even started?

[AlphaToaster]

Lily from animove, on 17 December 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

I would truly like to see how they can counter a real zergrush of a skilled premade, because that is by the games mechnic not possible.

I constantly heard leading up to CW that if you aren't in a 12man you have no chance. Could this be what they were talking about? Any tactic decided by any skilled premade is going to be seemingly impossible to counter unless one finds themselves in a premade as well. I guess that is what I was expecting coming into this so I am not surprised.

Slow builds don't do well on defense unless prepositioned properly. If that direwolf or king crab isn't in the right approach lane so the attackers have to run at/past it, it's in the wrong spot. If a slow mech has to reposition laterally to try and cut a rush off from the side, it's badly out of position.

The problem I see with clans is our fastest mech, the ice ferret doesn't have JJ. So any scouting outside the gate has to be done with a much slower mech that can clear the wall. The problem here is these mechs can't run away from IS lights, so to scout beyond the gate, it's very much a risk that the mech is being thrown away. Without knowing the comp of the attacking team the proper defense isn't prepared. If the attackers are using assaults in their initial push, how many out there are ejecting out of their light they took anticipating a light zerg, in order to jump into a heavier mech to counter an assault zerg?

I have a problem with being able to target the front of the gun just right with an airstrike, and the bombs carry over onto the generator on the back side. That's it. Give the community a chance to adapt to the new mode and figure out the defenses. I dread the idea that defending is going to be dumbed down so everyone gets a trophy.

@Kirkland -

I believe when the defenders are prepared for it, it takes a couple waves to get through. From what I've seen, it can sometimes take up to the third wave before any damage gets onto the base, and the last wave to kill it. 12-0 stomps happen in the other game modes, a perfect 1st wave zerg rush in CW is just an extension of that screw up by the other team and the winning team working together perfectly.

Edited by AlphaToaster, 17 December 2014 - 09:20 AM.

[Killstorm999999]

Savage Wolf, on 17 December 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

I need a definition here. What EXACTLY is meant by zerg tactics? Is it any form of trying to push towards the objective and caring less about fighting defenders or are we talking about a wave of 12 lights able to finish the match before it has even started?

The second part, about 12 lights finishing the match before it has even started.

There is grey area between a legit and exciting final push that wins the game, and a zerg rush. As long as the objective is 'kill this and win the game instantly' there will always be a zerg potential, so I am in favor of at least removing the 'win the game instantly' part of fulfilling the objective.

Edited by Deltron Zero, 17 December 2014 - 09:21 AM.

[Wolfwood592]

The real question is this.

The pro zergers say that people who can't counter a zerg are bad. Right?


Well, let's look at this for a second. You call yourself a top tier unit, who can stomp all and only have a few units who can truly compete with you. Yet, when it comes down to a new game mode, there is only one way you have actually truly shown you can win?


Who is truly the bad one here.

[Killstorm999999]

AlphaToaster, on 17 December 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

I constantly heard leading up to CW that if you aren't in a 12man you have no chance. Could this be what they were talking about? Any tactic decided by any skilled premade is going to be seemingly impossible to counter unless one finds themselves in a premade as well. I guess that is what I was expecting coming into this so I am not surprised.

I suppose what we are seeing with zerging is a manifestation of the organized 12mans. We should expect to see 12 mans dominating, but the game mode should still encourage mech-on-mech fighting, not a generator rush. I don't mind getting slaughtered while fighting a 12man, but I want to actually be fighting the 12 man.

[STEF_]

Let's be honest.
Let's say that Zerg tactic works also becasue of the huge hit reg issues, lag issues, and low fps issue CW has

[Angel of Annihilation]

Deltron Zero, on 17 December 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

There has been a lot of debate of the zerg rush tactics. One thing I am repeatedly seeing is pro-zergers saying that the anti-zergers need to learn to coordinate with their team and learn tactics to stop the rush. The pro-zegers will dismiss arguments for changing up the objectives by saying things will just be a mindless deathmatch, or if you want deathmatch then get out of CW, or that if you want an easier game then go somewhere else.

These counter-arguments are misguided, as a lot of people against the zerging tactic are against it because it is boring and counter to the desire of having cinematic mech-on-mech battles, not because they are unable to learn or that it is too difficult. Most don't want to replace the zerging tactics with deathmatch, they want to replace the zerging tactics with something more thoughtful.

Agree. Zerging isn't fun for the attacker or defender. There is no real tactics or strategy to it other than ball up and run to the the generator. Honestly there really isn't even any fighting that occurs, defenders try to burn down mechs that aren't shooting back at them or often even facing them before those attackers can burn down the generator. ZERO FUN.

[ztac]

It is obvious this was going to happen due to the nature of an objective based game like this. It is down to how much cover a map gives too , more cover makes a rush more viable.

But then for a PUG group even tying to get a zerg going is hard , But it does benefit the 12 man hugely.

[NovaFury]

It's not even fun as the attacker. You get the gen down in two minutes and get the same score as if you had no defenders.

Woo, 70LP. Grinding that will take years.

[Davegt27]

Savage Wolf, on 17 December 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

I need a definition here. What EXACTLY is meant by zerg tactics? Is it any form of trying to push towards the objective and caring less about fighting defenders or are we talking about a wave of 12 lights able to finish the match before it has even started?

Zerg rush is using the speed and maneuverability of light mechs to flank the gates rush past the opposition to the main objective and destroy the gun generator before the opposing force has time to respond



I see what the OP is getting at but I am not sure if the game designer agrees with him

I see it as someone used their brain to come up with a tactic that gives them the win

When CW first started I did three drops on defense and right away I noticed that on the right side of the cold map there was cover where you did not have line of sight

So on my 4th CW drop which was an attack I mentioned there is cover on the left side
The response was "left side it is"

Basically we are using the tools and information we have on hand to win the match some people call it and exploit or a cheat

Right now I am trying another tactic on the sulfur map I am trying to hit the gun from the front in such a way as to have my LRMs drop down on the gun generator

Edited by Davegt27, 17 December 2014 - 10:08 AM.

[Josef Nader]

I agree, OP. I, personally, have nothing against the concept of the zerg rush. It's a perfectly legitimate strategy, and it's on the defending team to be able to counter it. I'm perfectly okay with that in theory. It's just that the gameplay around the zerg/counter-zerg isn't that much fun. It's basically a matter of the defending team bringing enough DPS and being able to put enough of it on target that the enemy team can't twist the damage away, and the enemy team merely needs to focus on staying alive to the generator. It's not that I can't perform either of these tactics well. It's that these tactics aren't much fun to play out.

I'd like to encourage longer matches with more combat, because that's what the meat and potatoes of this game is all about.

[Savage Wolf]

By the definitions give earlier about Zerg tactics is (a ball of 12 light mechs that win instantly) I will not get into a discussion about whether or not it's possible to adequately defend against that. I don't know. But if it is not, then something needs to change to make that possible.

What I however what to preserve is that currently this is the first mode in the game that is purely objective based and as such, killing is not the goto strategy which every other mode has been so far. Push tactics with attackers pushing towards the reactor with one singular priority is fun, a change of pace and exciting. A reason to create different builds and play differently than we used to.

So, Zerg tactics, no! Push tactics, hell yes!!

[VagGR]

right now it boils down to deathcrows and timbis for clans and firestarters for IS. Now here is the thing zerg rush is a viable tactic and it should remain one but atm it seems its a bit too viable. PGI needs to find a way to indireclty counter this tactic, not make it obselete just a bit harder to pull off.

[Ozric]

Aye the real argument against zerg rushing is that you make a lot more cbills/XP/LP from a long but failed attack than from a fast and successful zerg.

[Killstorm999999]

Savage Wolf, on 17 December 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

By the definitions give earlier about Zerg tactics is (a ball of 12 light mechs that win instantly) I will not get into a discussion about whether or not it's possible to adequately defend against that. I don't know. But if it is not, then something needs to change to make that possible.

What I however what to preserve is that currently this is the first mode in the game that is purely objective based and as such, killing is not the goto strategy which every other mode has been so far. Push tactics with attackers pushing towards the reactor with one singular priority is fun, a change of pace and exciting. A reason to create different builds and play differently than we used to.

So, Zerg tactics, no! Push tactics, hell yes!!

Push tactics!

There could be forward drop zones that the attackers can capture. This would require 'standing in a square' for a short period, but that's fine. At least when you are standing in a square you have to actually fight the enemy.

Different forward positions have different advantages for the final push on the generator. Some might be closer but more exposed, others are further away but have more cover. The attackers could try and capture all, or even none, if they are so bold.

[Savage Wolf]

Josef Nader, on 17 December 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

I agree, OP. I, personally, have nothing against the concept of the zerg rush. It's a perfectly legitimate strategy, and it's on the defending team to be able to counter it. I'm perfectly okay with that in theory. It's just that the gameplay around the zerg/counter-zerg isn't that much fun. It's basically a matter of the defending team bringing enough DPS and being able to put enough of it on target that the enemy team can't twist the damage away, and the enemy team merely needs to focus on staying alive to the generator. It's not that I can't perform either of these tactics well. It's that these tactics aren't much fun to play out.

I'd like to encourage longer matches with more combat, because that's what the meat and potatoes of this game is all about.

But isn't it then simply a matter of the invasion mode simply being your thing? I love the invasion mode. To me, there were no real tactics in the old modes where the new mode has.

Maybe later, CW will include different kinds of modes and one will suit you better.

[Savage Wolf]

Deltron Zero, on 17 December 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

Push tactics!

There could be forward drop zones that the attackers can capture. This would require 'standing in a square' for a short period, but that's fine. At least when you are standing in a square you have to actually fight the enemy.

Different forward positions have different advantages for the final push on the generator. Some might be closer but more exposed, others are further away but have more cover. The attackers could try and capture all, or even none, if they are so bold.

I wanted to use the term Push Tactics as opposed to Zerg Tactics so that there was a difference in talking about pushing with 12 lights and pushing as a tactic in general. Your suggestion isn't bad, but it's creating confusion about the term in this thread.