209 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

First and foremost, just because you agree or disagree doesn't mean you "pro" or "anti" anything. A lot of times it just means we don't see an imbalance.

Just because I don't see zerg rushing as "bad" and feel it's "legitimate" doesn't mean I dont' think the game can be changed to help diversify strategies.

Zerg rushing is a direct result of the difficulties in communicating with solo players not on Comms. The same reason deathball is a legitimate and common strategy in pub matches. It's not that it's the "best" strategy, it's that it's the most convenient and easiest to use, thus it becomes popular and widely used.

[Killstorm999999]

Savage Wolf, on 17 December 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

But isn't it then simply a matter of the invasion mode simply being your thing? I love the invasion mode. To me, there were no real tactics in the old modes where the new mode has.

Maybe later, CW will include different kinds of modes and one will suit you better.

I can accept that invasion mode might not be everyone's cup of tea. Maybe it's working 100% as intended right now? In which case it is not my thing.

But I don't think you can say the original game modes have no tactics. Skirmish get's looked down upon a lot for being mindless, but it's anything but mindless. The game may not highlight specific victory conditions, but the team that knows how best to use the terrain and when to push/withdraw will have a much better chance of victory. That's tactics in the purest sense. There is no blinking square telling you to occupy the position. Instead, you have to know which position will be beneficial to you and your team, and the benefit of that position is proven only if you are able to use it to actually win! (maybe one could say skirmish has more depth then the current invasion mode? )

[Savage Wolf]

Deltron Zero, on 17 December 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

But I don't think you can say the original game modes have no tactics. Skirmish get's looked down upon a lot for being mindless, but it's anything but mindless. The game may not highlight specific victory conditions, but the team that knows how best to use the terrain and when to push/withdraw will have a much better chance of victory. That's tactics in the purest sense. There is no blinking square telling you to occupy the position. Instead, you have to know which position will be beneficial to you and your team, and the benefit of that position is proven only if you are able to use it to actually win! (maybe one could say skirmish has more depth then the current invasion mode? )

I didn't say they didn't have tactics, I just didn't see them. So they were not my cup of tea. I think they might be too similar, but that was also because to me, they were all the same and not really me.
And now there IS a mode for me, where I see tactics everywhere. So I'm a bit protective of that.
But if CW gets other modes later that isn't my thing, I don't mind. As long as I can keep this one.

Edited by Savage Wolf, 17 December 2014 - 10:34 AM.

[Killstorm999999]

Sandpit, on 17 December 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

First and foremost, just because you agree or disagree doesn't mean you "pro" or "anti" anything. A lot of times it just means we don't see an imbalance.

Just because I don't see zerg rushing as "bad" and feel it's "legitimate" doesn't mean I dont' think the game can be changed to help diversify strategies.

Zerg rushing is a direct result of the difficulties in communicating with solo players not on Comms. The same reason deathball is a legitimate and common strategy in pub matches. It's not that it's the "best" strategy, it's that it's the most convenient and easiest to use, thus it becomes popular and widely used.

I think you are right about the cause of zerg rushing, its convenient to execute just like the death ball.

But at least the death ball in Skirmish features actual fighting, and if you are so motivated you can try and whip a PUG group into shape and do something more intricate.
In Invasion, a successfull zerg rush will have very little fighting.

[STEF_]

If I can put my ass in a good position (and I can) and can alpha aiming at light's mech, I want to see it legged or dead.

So, again, a light rush is a legitimate tactic, normal way to do in TT too.

Pro zerg dudes can say what they want, BUT here a light has magic shield made with lag and hit reg.

[AlphaToaster]

Wolfwood592, on 17 December 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

The real question is this.

The pro zergers say that people who can't counter a zerg are bad. Right?

I have to disagree here. Insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting the same result. In this context I think "Bad" is trying the same thing over and over expecting the same result. I do not think that people who are still figuring out how to stop a zerg rush are bad, I think people who have given up and don't try are bad. If you try to stop the rush, then I don't think you're bad. If you keep trying the same tactic/builds, and the same tactic/builds you try don't work ever, but you keep trying that same tactic/build without trying other options, then unfortunately.....

In short you're only bad if you give up and don't try.

[Mystere]

Josef Nader, on 17 December 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

It's a perfectly legitimate strategy, and it's on the defending team to be able to counter it.

And that should be enough. Either learn how to counter that particular tactic or lose to it, period. If you want a fight, then by all that is holy and mighty, bring the fight to the enemy ... and not to the forums.

Also, I don't know about you folks, but turning the enemy's rush into a 12-0 massacre was a very satisfying experience as far as I was concerned. Smart teams will reevaluate their tactics, while idiots will continue to die.

Finally, people speak as if this is the one and only game mode that will be available in CW. I don't know about you, but that sounds extremely ... lacking.

[Josef Nader]

Savage Wolf, on 17 December 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

But isn't it then simply a matter of the invasion mode simply being your thing? I love the invasion mode. To me, there were no real tactics in the old modes where the new mode has.

Maybe later, CW will include different kinds of modes and one will suit you better.

I quite like invasion mode, honestly. My only problem is that it seems to pretty strongly discourage using the core mechanics of this game; that is to say fighting our robots. As far as I can tell, the attackers are harshly punished for killing defenders, as it means that a dropship and a fresh mech will be standing between them and their final objective. The only way to avoid this is to not fight, which isn't that much fun for anyone. At least, I haven't met anyone who'd rather run through the enemy soaking hits to shoot at a stationary structure and try to DPS it down before exploding. I get that winning is important, and I understand that this is the nature of the mode as it stands. I just think everyone would have more fun if we fought things out a bit more.

I've proposed doing things like lengthening the respawn time of the defender (pretty common in this kind of attack/defend mode). I wouldn't be against shifting the defender respawn a bit farther away from the objective, or changing things up so that a coordinated attacker assault could grind their way through the enemy base and win effectively. Those kind of hard-fought victories are the most fun, in my opinion. I just feel like something's wrong when the mode plays more like a tower defense game than a giant robot fighting game.

[AlphaToaster]

Stefka Kerensky, on 17 December 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

If I can put my ass in a good position (and I can) and can alpha aiming at light's mech, I want to see it legged or dead.

So, again, a light rush is a legitimate tactic, normal way to do in TT too.

Pro zerg dudes can say what they want, BUT here a light has magic shield made with lag and hit reg.

My streaks are registering with deadly effect. Are you having trouble with your streaks?

[LordKnightFandragon]

Whats the counter to the zerg rush? Ive seen a few videos of it and the rushers dont lose but maybe 1 or 2 mechs before the gun is dead. You cant couner it, given the lag, the size of light mechs, the number of light mechs all zerging at once and given how you spread out a bit to counter an attack, defending both gates, not a mindless zerg rush.

[Mystere]

VagGR, on 17 December 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

right now it boils down to deathcrows and timbis for clans and firestarters for IS. Now here is the thing zerg rush is a viable tactic and it should remain one but atm it seems its a bit too viable. PGI needs to find a way to indireclty counter this tactic, not make it obselete just a bit harder to pull off.

It's been only 7 days. As I said in another thread:

Mystere, on 16 December 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

I think players are just discovering/employing effective defensive tactics at a much slower rate than coming up with offensive ones. But that is just fine by me. What is not fine by me is this rush for immediate nerfs/buffs.

Patience is still a virtue.

Even the famed Roman legions took a while before they were able to counter the tactics of the Parthian Empire.

[Savage Wolf]

Josef Nader, on 17 December 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

I quite like invasion mode, honestly. My only problem is that it seems to pretty strongly discourage using the core mechanics of this game; that is to say fighting our robots. As far as I can tell, the attackers are harshly punished for killing defenders, as it means that a dropship and a fresh mech will be standing between them and their final objective. The only way to avoid this is to not fight, which isn't that much fun for anyone. At least, I haven't met anyone who'd rather run through the enemy soaking hits to shoot at a stationary structure and try to DPS it down before exploding. I get that winning is important, and I understand that this is the nature of the mode as it stands. I just think everyone would have more fun if we fought things out a bit more.

I've proposed doing things like lengthening the respawn time of the defender (pretty common in this kind of attack/defend mode). I wouldn't be against shifting the defender respawn a bit farther away from the objective, or changing things up so that a coordinated attacker assault could grind their way through the enemy base and win effectively. Those kind of hard-fought victories are the most fun, in my opinion. I just feel like something's wrong when the mode plays more like a tower defense game than a giant robot fighting game.

I see your point and mostly agree. Right now the option of killing defenders just seem to be a bad one. And killing should be an option since we have weapons for a reason (even if that reason is more lore than game design). As long as the option of killing doesn't become the goto strategy like I feel it does in Conquest despite it not being the objective. And as long as not killing is still viable.

Edited by Savage Wolf, 17 December 2014 - 10:50 AM.

[Krivvan]

Deltron Zero, on 17 December 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

The second part, about 12 lights finishing the match before it has even started.

The 12-Light zerg rush has already fallen out of popularity and doesn't guarantee success. The heavier mech straight push to the generator after 2-3 waves is what people mainly refer to as rushing nowadays. The Light rush is easily stopped.

[Mystere]

Stefka Kerensky, on 17 December 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Pro zerg dudes can say what they want, BUT here a light has magic shield made with lag and hit reg.

Then fix that instead and leave the current Invasion mode alone. That is a more logical approach, don't you think so?

Edited by Mystere, 17 December 2014 - 10:51 AM.

[Krivvan]

LordKnightFandragon, on 17 December 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

Whats the counter to the zerg rush? Ive seen a few videos of it and the rushers dont lose but maybe 1 or 2 mechs before the gun is dead. You cant couner it, given the lag, the size of light mechs, the number of light mechs all zerging at once and given how you spread out a bit to counter an attack, defending both gates, not a mindless zerg rush.

The easiest way is to immediately sacrifice your first mech for a streak mech. A couple players on the team doing this shuts down the Light rush entirely. Projectile weapons also still have decent hit reg.

[Lily from animove]

Deltron Zero, on 17 December 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

I can accept that invasion mode might not be everyone's cup of tea. Maybe it's working 100% as intended right now? In which case it is not my thing.

But I don't think you can say the original game modes have no tactics. Skirmish get's looked down upon a lot for being mindless, but it's anything but mindless. The game may not highlight specific victory conditions, but the team that knows how best to use the terrain and when to push/withdraw will have a much better chance of victory. That's tactics in the purest sense. There is no blinking square telling you to occupy the position. Instead, you have to know which position will be beneficial to you and your team, and the benefit of that position is proven only if you are able to use it to actually win! (maybe one could say skirmish has more depth then the current invasion mode? )

russ already said they will change something about this, which means it as never meant to be a tactic

Davegt27, on 17 December 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

Zerg rush is using the speed and maneuverability of light mechs to flank the gates rush past the opposition to the main objective and destroy the gun generator before the opposing force has time to respond



I see what the OP is getting at but I am not sure if the game designer agrees with him

I see it as someone used their brain to come up with a tactic that gives them the win

When CW first started I did three drops on defense and right away I noticed that on the right side of the cold map there was cover where you did not have line of sight

So on my 4th CW drop which was an attack I mentioned there is cover on the left side
The response was "left side it is"

Basically we are using the tools and information we have on hand to win the match some people call it and exploit or a cheat

Right now I am trying another tactic on the sulfur map I am trying to hit the gun from the front in such a way as to have my LRMs drop down on the gun generator

brain? tactic? where what? I told before any CW was available that this tactic will probably work, because the game mechanics don't know a counter to this when you give any object health and so suicide rushes will work.

It's also no "flanking" tactic, you can run right through the opps, becasue the chance to defeat yout quick rushing lights is too low to make sure to stop them.

chances? maybe jump in front of the generator with some Victors and hope to block the fire on the generator, lol, so they need maybe a few seconds more.

[Sandpit]

Deltron Zero, on 17 December 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

I think you are right about the cause of zerg rushing, its convenient to execute just like the death ball.

But at least the death ball in Skirmish features actual fighting, and if you are so motivated you can try and whip a PUG group into shape and do something more intricate.
In Invasion, a successfull zerg rush will have very little fighting.

Zerg rushes aren't really that hard to stop though. Consolidate around the gun and those light mechs go pop very easily. Making sure you have a light hunter or two in your drop deck makes a huge difference as well.

[Mystere]

LordKnightFandragon, on 17 December 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

Whats the counter to the zerg rush? Ive seen a few videos of it and the rushers dont lose but maybe 1 or 2 mechs before the gun is dead. You cant couner it, given the lag, the size of light mechs, the number of light mechs all zerging at once and given how you spread out a bit to counter an attack, defending both gates, not a mindless zerg rush.

Lag and other bugs should never be used as a reason to change ... well practically anything. The only logical course of action is to get said bugs fixed.

Also, I've had a match where a single Daishi -- of all things -- supported by 4 turrets finished off 4 lights that managed to get past the other defenders during their rush. Wave 1 was a 12-0 massacre. The battle ended at 48-8.

[Kirkland Langue]

My definition of zerg rush: A strategy where you have no goal of fighting enemies in your attempt to reach the enemy base.

If you kill enough defenders that you can just muscle past them, that's not really a zerg rush.

[AlphaToaster]

LordKnightFandragon, on 17 December 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

Whats the counter to the zerg rush? Ive seen a few videos of it and the rushers dont lose but maybe 1 or 2 mechs before the gun is dead. You cant couner it, given the lag, the size of light mechs, the number of light mechs all zerging at once and given how you spread out a bit to counter an attack, defending both gates, not a mindless zerg rush.

The problem you are describing stems from no scouting and a failure to prepare defensive positions properly. Why spread out when you know they're pushing a particular gate? No scouting.... so you don't know which gate they're pushing until they're jumping over it.

Plan for the light rush, since the heavier rush is slower you will have more time to react than if you plan for a heavy rush, and stack at the gate. The light rush is dangerous when the defenders stack at the gate. That makes it just that much easier to run past them. The gates have nasty bottlenecks just inside that the attackers have to funnel into. There's need to clog it with mechs unless you know it's a heavy rush (scouting helps), but even then you want them running at you, not past and away from you, so stack further off the gate to give yourself time to shoot them.

All of these things are harder for a pug but easier for a coordinated unit to do. It is not rocket science by any means.

Edited by AlphaToaster, 17 December 2014 - 11:34 AM.