209 replies to this topic

[AlmightyAeng]

DarthRevis, on 17 December 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

You realize that the Attackers cannot win by defeating all the mechs right? That destroying the base is the only way?

True...and so far we've only pulled off killing all 48 mechs first and THEN the base twice

Edited by Ghost Badger, 17 December 2014 - 12:13 PM.

[Savage Wolf]

Ghost Badger, on 17 December 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

True...and so far we've only pulled off killing all 48 mechs first and THEN the base twice

That would have meant that you clearly outskilled the defenders since defenders have lots of advantages in a straight up fight. With two equal teams, the defenders should win if they decided that they were simply playing Skirmish.

[Fox Kell]

Why not make so the gen is protected by a force field and requires u to destroy a few more power gens once inside the compound to drop it. That would increase and encourage some brawling...

[Savage Wolf]

Before any adjustment to make it harder to kill the reactor or forcing attackers to fight we should first make sure that it was simply beneficial for attackers to do so. That might resolve the problem by itself.

But right now, killing a defender means that he gets a fresh mech AND brings in a dropship. And fairly quickly too. So why would I want to fight the defenders? Too many times have I killed a defender, simply to see him again 1 minute later as he conveniently was dropped of where he needed to go anyway.

If you want attackers to fight, first give them a reason to. Make sure that killing a defender actually helps us reach the reactor, not the opposite.

THEN we might boost reactor health, add more obstacles and so on.

[SocketWrench]

Savage Wolf, on 17 December 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

Any strategy that has less chance of success would never be used. Why would you? If all the strategies only have 30% chance of success then the attackers only win 30% of the time and then no one would bother attacking.
And isn't 40 - 60% actually the sweet spot where it's exciting to see if it works or not? If you want more viable strategies then you should want more strategies with that chance of success.

Thank you, you have echoed my words. The whole point of my post was that if there were other viable strategies with a decent chance of success, then you'd see a lot less rush tactics, but as it stands, it's one of the ONLY viable strategies. In fact, on Boreal, I've yet to see attackers win by any other means. The point, to me is that with a rush/push/zerg/whatever strategy, you are reducing the game to a hope and prayer that your opponent hasn't made preparations to counter it and that they suck too much to drop your mechs fast enough. At least to me, if I have other potential strategies, that's going to be less attractive then a strategy that allows my team's skill to be the deciding factor, not the enemy teams skill or lack-there-of.

Let me clarify. I am not against rush strategies. What I am against is missions/maps where that is the only strategy with a reasonably chance of success. My opinion is that this is probably true for most people here that do not like the rush strategies. I think it's fine to have them as a potential strategy, in fact it's a bit of a good thing to have that available, because it keeps matches risky even when the defending team is up by 10 or 12 kills, because there is always the chance that the attackers can put together a last-ditch effort to get to the generator and take it out. But they should be just that, Last Ditch efforts, not the only realistic approach for a win.

[STEF_]

Sandpit, on 17 December 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

There's a big difference in adjusting your drop deck to make sure you carry ONE of these mechs out of 4 and saying "every build I drop in"

This is why people don't take many suggestions on here seriously. The hyperbole knows no bounds. People want to take tips and suggestions and try to turn them into twisted and extreme example that are just ridiculous

Then explain me how it works.
I drop with a laserboat, I see a zerg going , so I eject and change my mech into a streak boat one?
OR, I drop in a streak boat since the beginning and ....zerg doesn't happen.

HAve you read my suggestion about FIX that hit reg and lag issues we have?
I want to be effective vs light even without streak.

[Splitpin]

I seem to remember that only a few days ago I was reading posts about "Attackers can't win", now it's "Defenders can't win". Savage Wolf is on to it a few posts above, due to the Defender's re-spawn points being much closer to any battle, they have an inherent advantage in an attrition or death match outcome. But this game type has (for the attackers) an asymmetric goal as well, That's new in MWO and is a kind of balance in itself. I think we should let this play out for a while and not react with some knee jerk reaction to the usual whine of "I can't win".

[Sandpit]

Stefka Kerensky, on 17 December 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

Then explain me how it works.
I drop with a laserboat, I see a zerg going , so I eject and change my mech into a streak boat one?
OR, I drop in a streak boat since the beginning and ....zerg doesn't happen.

HAve you read my suggestion about FIX that hit reg and lag issues we have?
I want to be effective vs light even without streak.

You coordinate with your team first and foremost before you land planetside
Then you coordinate with your team on the ground and keep mechs like that in rotation
Then you use some teamwork to adjust as needed
Then you coordinate with your team to take up certain positions and deny those rushing lanes to at the very least slow them down until your team can reposition if need be.

Hit reg arguments have absolutely nothing to do with the zerg tactic debate. Take that up with the proper threads.
You don't HAVE to have a streak boat, once again, you're taking a tip given to some sort of extreme to have a "reason" to dismiss it. Many of us take out lights with lasers and dakka just fine. Don't dilute or confuse the thread here.

Splitpin, on 17 December 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

I think we should let this play out for a while and not react with some knee jerk reaction to the usual whine of "I can't win".

exactly

[Mystere]

Telmasa, on 17 December 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

Amen to this.

A match that is drawn out with lots of fighting = 600k ~ 800k cbills, and around 700-900 loyalty points on average, without the contract bonus, for me.


A match where one team zergs (and either succeeds or loses, either way it goes quickly) nets me at most maybe 200k cbills, and maybe 50-100 loyalty points WITH the contract bonus.


That's the reason I think it's lame.

Not because it's an invalid tactic, not because I can't cope, not because I'm bad - it's because it's boring and reduces the reward for both defender AND attacker by a huge amount.

Massacring each and every "Banzai!" charge may get boring, but that is the enemy commander's fault. It's not my job to tell the enemy how they can beat us.

That's how I am role playing this particular situation and I am fine with it.

[Sandpit]

Mystere, on 17 December 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

Massacring each and every "Banzai!" charge may get boring, but that is the enemy commander's fault. It's not my job to tell the enemy how they can beat us.

That's how I am role playing this particular situation and I am fine with it.

If the enemy wants to derp straight at my team, that's great. Makes my job of making them go boom easier

[Mystere]

F0xdi3, on 17 December 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Why not make so the gen is protected by a force field and requires u to destroy a few more power gens once inside the compound to drop it. That would increase and encourage some brawling...

Destroy the force field power generators, then destroy the cannon generator. Brawling not necessary.

[Sandpit]

just put a housing around the generator. I've suggested that a few times.

Then you can't just pile on it. Then buff the health or the health regen a bit.

[Revis Volek]

Lily from animove, on 17 December 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

russ already said they will change something about this, which means it as never meant to be a tactic



brain? tactic? where what? I told before any CW was available that this tactic will probably work, because the game mechanics don't know a counter to this when you give any object health and so suicide rushes will work.

It's also no "flanking" tactic, you can run right through the opps, becasue the chance to defeat yout quick rushing lights is too low to make sure to stop them.

chances? maybe jump in front of the generator with some Victors and hope to block the fire on the generator, lol, so they need maybe a few seconds more.

The game doesnt NEED to counter this you do as a player. Also why do you have to KILL 12 mechs? Why cant you just leg the lead mech all the time?

You dont have to kill them right away, just stop them or even half of them from making it to omega and YES to jumping in front of shots!

If you got a huncie or Yen lo with a AC20 stand in front of him! Dont let that thing hit the generator, you have 4 respawns the generator has none.

Edited by DarthRevis, 17 December 2014 - 01:22 PM.

[Deathlike]

Honestly, I want to hear other "working" non-zerg attacks that are consistently successful. Most times, that is not the case. Most of the time, every "wave" or "run" is an endurance test to remove obstructions permanently like gates and turrets. Usually the results of these attacks will determine how successful an attack/defense will be.

The only other times where non-zerging works.. but that involves your opponents to be superior to you (like, the Lords) and can negate the effects of the usual benefits of being on defense where there are literally two or three initial chokepoints that the attackers must go through.

A good commander on defense.. assuming equal skill on both sides knows or anticipates where the incoming attacks are coming from and tells the group to focus on a section AND remind them to not overcommit to a particular area for another force to attack the gen/gun unopposed.

Frankly, I see a lot of people not really thinking about the counters and complaining strictly about how "zerg rushing is OP". Seriously.. the #1 success for a defense is positioning (secondarily is having the mech to do it with and/or maximizing what you have at the moment).

It's still funny that one of the first few threads about CW was about legging. Gee, what would happen if the enemy couldn't reach the gen...

[Sandpit]

DarthRevis, on 17 December 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

The game doesnt NEED to counter this you do as a player.

QFT

[Mystere]

Sandpit, on 17 December 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

just put a housing around the generator. I've suggested that a few times.

Then you can't just pile on it. Then buff the health or the health regen a bit.

I'd rather wait for the other units to finally get on with the program. There is nothing to fix as far as I am concerned.

[Sandpit]

Mystere, on 17 December 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

I'd rather wait for the other units to finally get on with the program. There is nothing to fix as far as I am concerned.

I think it could still use some adjusting but to cry out that a tactic needs to be "fixed" because some refuse to adapt is ridiculous

[pwnface]

Already made a forum thread teaching people how to stop light mech zerg rush. QQ still ensues.

http://mwomercs.com/...h-zerg-rush-qq/

[pwnface]

Deathlike, on 17 December 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

Honestly, I want to hear other "working" non-zerg attacks that are consistently successful. Most times, that is not the case. Most of the time, every "wave" or "run" is an endurance test to remove obstructions permanently like gates and turrets. Usually the results of these attacks will determine how successful an attack/defense will be.

The only other times where non-zerging works.. but that involves your opponents to be superior to you (like, the Lords) and can negate the effects of the usual benefits of being on defense where there are literally two or three initial chokepoints that the attackers must go through.

A good commander on defense.. assuming equal skill on both sides knows or anticipates where the incoming attacks are coming from and tells the group to focus on a section AND remind them to not overcommit to a particular area for another force to attack the gen/gun unopposed.

Frankly, I see a lot of people not really thinking about the counters and complaining strictly about how "zerg rushing is OP". Seriously.. the #1 success for a defense is positioning (secondarily is having the mech to do it with and/or maximizing what you have at the moment).

It's still funny that one of the first few threads about CW was about legging. Gee, what would happen if the enemy couldn't reach the gen...

I've always equated zerg rushing with running in with light mechs and ignoring EVERYTHING except for the orbital cannon. I think if you fight your way into the base, clearing turrets along the way, it shouldn't be considered zerging. The way you seem to have defined zerging is not trying to kill every enemy mech and/or not having an established kill lead.

[Kirkland Langue]

Savage Wolf, on 17 December 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

So you don't like if people push at all? Only by eliminating enemies?

If you read what I've said on the topic, my current belief (which has been unchanged since first trying out the Zerg Rush on Friday), is that the Zerg Rush should be a viable tactic but that it should generally require multiple waves to complete.