209 replies to this topic

[Dimento Graven]

ContingencyPlan, on 18 December 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

...

Is it fair to be able to cut the entire enemy team out of the equation and effectively reduce the gamemode to a PvE encounter? That's debatable. But before I can concern myself with winning or losing, I at least want to be a part of the equation. And when faced with an oncoming rush by light mechs who are basically trying to ignore my presence there, that becomes very frustrating, because the way I see it, by using that tactic, they are basically trying to exclude me from the game.

Again, the problem as I see it are the units that employ the tactic taking advantage of all the known weaknesses in the game engine and this iteration of CW.

It is KNOWN that lights, and specifically Firestarters and Spiders, have hit box, hit detection issues.
It is KNOWN that 'mechs with active jump jets have hit detection issues.
It is KNOWN that that the generator at the "Omega" point has extremely few hit points.

So to EXCLUSIVELY use a tactic that takes advantage of known issues like some units are doing pushes your team toward a very bad end of the spectrum...

The fact that PGI is changing the map to address some portion of this tactic, this quickly after CW was released ought to tell us something about how serious they view the issue.

Beo Vulf, on 18 December 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

First - There are two effective strategies for stopping the Zerg rush, and several pugs have used them effectively. That they were discovered and used by Units first has no bearing on the argument.

And those strategies are?

Quote

Second - This is a BETA test of the community warfare. The objective is to break the game so that PGI can fix the holes.

Ok, so you "broke" the game once. Great! Report it and move on, but to do nothing BUT that ONE strategy over, and Over, and OVER again... Sorry, you're no longer testing, you're exploiting.

Cut it out.

Quote

Third - Any tactic which works can be used as long as it does not violate the terms of use. Even if it takes away from the game, or exposes weaknesses in the game. Why? We are trying to find the weaknesses and exploits so that PGI can fix them.

Yeah and the fact that so quickly after CW has been released PGI is making changes in order to try and address the tactic ought to tell you how PGI views it...

[Beo Vulf]

Dimento Graven, on 18 December 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

Again, the problem as I see it are the units that employ the tactic taking advantage of all the known weaknesses in the game engine and this iteration of CW.

It is KNOWN that lights, and specifically Firestarters and Spiders, have hit box, hit detection issues.
It is KNOWN that 'mechs with active jump jets have hit detection issues.
It is KNOWN that that the generator at the "Omega" point has extremely few hit points.

So to EXCLUSIVELY use a tactic that takes advantage of known issues like some units are doing pushes your team toward a very bad end of the spectrum...

The fact that PGI is changing the map to address some portion of this tactic, this quickly after CW was released ought to tell us something about how serious they view the issue.

And those strategies are?

Ok, so you "broke" the game once. Great! Report it and move on, but to do nothing BUT that ONE strategy over, and Over, and OVER again... Sorry, you're no longer testing, you're exploiting.

Cut it out.

Yeah and the fact that so quickly after CW has been released PGI is making changes in order to try and address the tactic ought to tell you how PGI views it...

"THIS IS A BETA TEST OF AN ASPECT OF THE GAME THE OBJECT IS TO BREAK THE GAME".

[Dimento Graven]

Beo Vulf, on 18 December 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

"THIS IS A BETA TEST OF AN ASPECT OF THE GAME THE OBJECT IS TO BREAK THE GAME".

YOU BROKE IT ONCE, NOW GO FIND SOMETHING ELSE BROKEN, STOP SITTING THERE DOING THE SAME BROKEN THING OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, THAT'S NOT TESTING, THAT'S EXPLOITING!"

[Beo Vulf]

Dimento Graven, on 18 December 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:

YOU BROKE IT ONCE, NOW GO FIND SOMETHING ELSE BROKEN, STOP SITTING THERE DOING THE SAME BROKEN THING OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, THAT'S NOT TESTING, THAT'S EXPLOITING!"

QQ

[Dimento Graven]

Beo Vulf, on 18 December 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

QQ

HAHAHAHA!!!

Thank you for proving my point.

[Beo Vulf]

Dimento Graven, on 18 December 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

HAHAHAHA!!!

Thank you for proving my point.

If you dont like the Zerg read the forums the tactics for beating it are in them.

[Dimento Graven]

Beo Vulf, on 18 December 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

If you dont like the Zerg read the forums the tactics for beating it are in them.

Actually no. You either post the link, or you tell us the strategy.

The onus is on you to 'defend' your exploit, not us to prove that it is an exploit.

It's been proven to be an exploit by the very fact that PGI is ALREADY changing the map to try and address the exploit.

So... YOU need to provide the strategies to defend your position that you are only "repeatedly testing the same 'broken' feature, over and over and over again".

[Beo Vulf]

Dimento Graven, on 18 December 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

Actually no. You either post the link, or you tell us the strategy.

The onus is on you to 'defend' your exploit, not us to prove that it is an exploit.

It's been proven to be an exploit by the very fact that PGI is ALREADY changing the map to try and address the exploit.

So... YOU need to provide the strategies to defend your position that you are only "repeatedly testing the same 'broken' feature, over and over and over again".

Why should I do your work for you? If your to lazy or to stupid to actually read the forums to fn bad (BTW the post is in the community warfare forums and easy to find).

[Dimento Graven]

Beo Vulf, on 18 December 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

Why should I do your work for you? If your to lazy or to stupid to actually read the forums to fn bad (BTW the post is in the community warfare forums and easy to find).

For the following reasons:

First: You were the one that implied that there's some strategy that counters this. Great! Prove it. Otherwise you're just lying.

Are you a liar? No? Prove it. Either post the links, or describe strategy here.

In other words: "Put up or shut up."

Secondly: You made the excuse that the repeated use of the strategy is somehow "testing" the BETA state of CW.

If you do it once, per map, for a total of two times, ok, great. Thanks for testing it.

But doing it match, after match, after match, after match, after match... Well, you've lost the high ground of 'testing'. You're no longer doing the "community" ANY service, you're EXPLOITING a weakness for your own advantage and ego. Essentially I call it, egobation, masturbating your own ego, by having lots of stars with your unit's tag on them as if you won via actual effort, and not just repeatedly using the same exploit endlessly.

Again, "Put up, or shut up."

[Sandpit]

Beo Vulf, on 18 December 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

If you dont like the Zerg read the forums the tactics for beating it are in them.

Dimento Graven, on 18 December 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

Actually no. You either post the link, or you tell us the strategy.

Actually no, it's not his responsibility to be your personal librarian.
Get off your lazy @$$ and do the work yourself

[Beo Vulf]

Dimento Graven, on 18 December 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

For the following reasons:

First: You were the one that implied that there's some strategy that counters this. Great! Prove it. Otherwise you're just lying.

Are you a liar? No? Prove it. Either post the links, or describe strategy here.

In other words: "Put up or shut up."

Secondly: You made the excuse that the repeated use of the strategy is somehow "testing" the BETA state of CW.

If you do it once, per map, for a total of two times, ok, great. Thanks for testing it.

But doing it match, after match, after match, after match, after match... Well, you've lost the high ground of 'testing'. You're no longer doing the "community" ANY service, you're EXPLOITING a weakness for your own advantage and ego. Essentially I call it, egobation, masturbating your own ego, by having lots of stars with your unit's tag on them as if you won via actual effort, and not just repeatedly using the same exploit endlessly.

Again, "Put up, or shut up."

Is it against the terms of use? No
Does this make it a legitimate strategy? Yes
Will we keep using it until PGI fixes it? Yes
Is your scroll wheel broken? Maybe since the post I referred to is on the first page.
Is your vision poor? Maybe since the post is on the first page.

[Mott]

Lily from animove, on 17 December 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

rushign is one thing, a tactic, but whenever a tactic is breaking the whole core of a game it hardly has any point. Yet all those clever guys saiyng "prepare a counter yadda yadaa" I would truly like to see how they can counter a real zergrush of a skilled premade, because that is by the games mechnic not possible.

It is possible and there are vids to prove it.

It's quite simple really, when the zerg rush happens your slower, heavier hitting units move along side LEGGING the enemy's forward units. Usually these are fast moving lights/meds/heavies and are QUITE easily legged when properly focused.

The other 3rd of your team (usually faster lights and mediums) move at the tail end of the zerg rush, legging or rear CT coring the slower units. These guys can either move up the line, eliminating the legged units your team is leaving behind, OR they can rush to defend the gun generator if any enemies have managed to break through.

If you are trying to DESTROY the mechs in a zerg rush, before SLOWING them... you will lose.

I don't disagree that this isn't the most fun objective or game mode... but people are greatly exaggerating its impossibility to defend against.

And when you do defend it well - it's DAMN FUN because your team is still getting 1-3 waves worth of kills while only blowing up your own mechs thru ejections to bring in a fresher one.

Edit to add: This is from an IS perspective... defending as a clanner is even easier as the superior firepower rips through the chargers even faster

Edited by Mott, 18 December 2014 - 09:13 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Sandpit, on 18 December 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

Actually no, it's not his responsibility to be your personal librarian.
Get off your lazy @$$ and do the work yourself

If he can't provide the proof of his own words, then screw it.

It's NOT up to the prosecutor to do the defense's work for them.

If the defense has evidence of innocence, THEY need to present it. They can't just go and say, "He's innocent, go find the proof..."

So again, "PUT UP, OR SHUT UP!"

Beo Vulf, on 18 December 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

Is it against the terms of use? No

Debatable.

Quote

Does this make it a legitimate strategy? Yes

Not necessarily.

Quote

Will we keep using it until PGI fixes it? Yes

Then you're exploiting. Good for you. Continue to stroke your ego.

Quote

Is your scroll wheel broken? Maybe since the post I referred to is on the first page.
Is your vision poor? Maybe since the post is on the first page.

"PUT UP, OR SHUT UP."

It's on the first page, but you're so goddamn ******* stubborn you refuse to even post a link to the thread.

Wow! You "really" feel like you're on "strong ground" then... LOL!

[Apnu]

Golly, its not that hard to figure out how to stop the zerg rush. Here you go, I'll tell everybody how I'd stop it.

1) take a drop deck with at least 2 anti-light medium mechs. Equip them with pretty fast engines (at 90KPH or faster), with lots of SSRMs, MPLs, and LBs. Include BAP if you can, and JJs if you got room. Choose that mech first.
2) Stay near the base, wait for the rush. If possible, get somewhere high to see the approaching enemy. See lots of fast movers? You got a light mech rush.
3) Be near the objective, lock on and blow the ankle biters away. Leg if possible, but not necessary.

You don't need the whole team set up to bash lights, about half will do.

For the record, I think the light mech rush is a lame tactic. It takes no skill or brains to execute. There's nothing going on there that makes it 1337. Its a cheap way to get a quick win, that's all.

Having said that, the game mechanics allow it, so its legal. 1/3 of all gamers are min/maxing power addicts. If they can find one tactic that works over and over and over and over and over. They will do it over and over and over and over and over.

It sucks, but that's the reality of any online game I've ever played.

Edited by Apnu, 18 December 2014 - 09:18 AM.

[Beo Vulf]

Dimento Graven, on 18 December 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

If he can't provide the proof of his own words, then screw it.

It's NOT up to the prosecutor to do the defense's work for them.

If the defense has evidence of innocence, THEY need to present it. They can't just go and say, "He's innocent, go find the proof..."

So again, "PUT UP, OR SHUT UP!"

Debatable.

Not necessarily.

Then you're exploiting. Good for you. Continue to stroke your ego.

"PUT UP, OR SHUT UP."

It's on the first page, but you're so goddamn ******* stubborn you refuse to even post a link to the thread.

Wow! You "really" feel like you're on "strong ground" then... LOL!

There was a time that 1st RR actually lead not had other people lead them around.

[Dimento Graven]

Apnu, on 18 December 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

Golly, its not that hard to figure out how to stop the zerg rush. Here you go, I'll tell everybody how I'd stop it.

1) take a drop deck with at least 2 anti-light medium mechs. Equip them with pretty fast engines (at 90KPH or faster), with lots of SSRMs, MPLs, and LBs. Include BAP if you can, and JJs if you got room. Choose that mech first.
2) Stay near the base, wait for the rush. If possible, get somewhere high to see the approaching enemy. See lots of fast movers? You got a light mech rush.
3) Be near the objective, lock on and blow the ankle biters away. Leg if possible, but not necessary.

You don't need the whole team set up to bash lights, about half will do.

Problems With This Tactic:

1. 2 mediums vs. 12 lights.
2. The 12 lights will move past the mediums fairly quickly.
3. Waiting until they are within sight of the objective, it's already too late because the objective has such pitiful few HP.
4. EXPLOIT OF HIT DETECTION: The zerging enemy feather jump jets the entire run to the objective, exploiting the KNOWN hit detection issue where the server has the 'mechs "higher" than they are shown on the screen. Hard to shoot at legs that the server says ARE NOT where you're aiming.
5. EXPLOIT OF HIT BOXES: The majority of zerging 'mechs are typically Firestarters (or Spiders) 'mechs with KNOWN hit box issues. Hard to disable/kill a 'mech when its hit boxes allow for a 40 point alpha to the rear center torso to pass through with no damage.

And again, proof positive that this is an exploit and that PGI doesn't want us to do it (see I can provide quotes and links to bolster MY arguments):

From the latest patch notes, found here: http://mwomercs.com/game/patch-notes

Quote

BASE RUSHING

Base rush tactics, while they can be countered, are definitely not intended to be the only or best way to take a base. To deal with this, we've implemented two main changes.

The first is that players must now destroy three new small generators before gaining access to the Omega target – the orbital gun. Until such time as the three mini generators are destroyed, the Omega target will have a protective door covering its internal generator.

The second is a series of map changes designed to provide more cover and protected pathways after breaching the gates. The intention is that we want to see more brawling taking place inside the gates, and even deep into the base, but with less base-rushing tactics.

If it wasn't a problem, it wouldn't need to be fixed, now would it?

[Sandpit]

Dimento Graven, on 18 December 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

If he can't provide the proof of his own words, then screw it.

It doesn't require "proof"
It's not his or anyone else's "requirement" to provide you with better tactics. Nor is it their responsibility to "convince" you that you can beat it.

[Dimento Graven]

Beo Vulf, on 18 December 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

There was a time that 1st RR actually lead not had other people lead them around.

Guilty people always try and deflect the blame.

[Sandpit]

Beo Vulf, on 18 December 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

There was a time that 1st RR actually lead not had other people lead them around.

He's not the "norm" I promise. I've dropped with several 1st in CW and THEY don't act like this.

Dimento Graven, on 18 December 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

Guilty people always try and deflect the blame.

You're not doing anything except proving you're not trying to do anything except QQ and troll dude oh and hurting the 1st's image.

[Dimento Graven]

Sandpit, on 18 December 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

It doesn't require "proof"
It's not his or anyone else's "requirement" to provide you with better tactics. Nor is it their responsibility to "convince" you that you can beat it.

His defense of endlessly exploiting this tactic is that it can be countered, yet he doesn't even bother providing a link to prove his words.

This is an exploit, PGI really never intended for this tactic to be used as EVIDENCED in my prior post where I link the patch notes and quote PGI's own words on the matter. It's being addressed in the patch, therefore it WAS an exploit and shouldn't have been used over and over and over and over again.

Sandpit, I realize you see a post from me and AUTOMATICALLY want to take up the opposite position of what ever I say, but I NEVER thought I'd find you on the side supporting someone who is brazenly trying to justify the repeated use of an exploit.

What.the.hell.man?!?!