20517 replies to this topic

[Strum Wealh]

Spheroid, on 07 April 2015 - 07:38 AM, said:

The fluff for the Enforcer and Hunchback both use the term "rounds" which is not compatible with the bursting mechanic some desire.

The Enforcer shell count is very specific and unambigious. Stream of bullets or hail of gunfire are completely subjective however.

The seeming discrepancy is actually explained in the second BT novel, The Sword and the Dagger:

"Ardan ran a hurried check on his Victor's main armament. The right arm Pontiac 100 autocannon had the best chance of scoring a crippling hit on the Thunderbolt, but he was afraid that his swim in the mud might have fouled its feed mechanism. The autocannon was a devastating weapon. It fired high-speed, rapid-fire streams of explosive, armor-piercing shells from cassettes or carousels fed into the gun one at a time by a complex and occasionally balky autoloader mechanism. Each cassette held 100 shells, and by a widespread but commonly accepted looseness of terminology, each cassette was itself considered to be one round. One cassette round was already loaded. Nineteen more were stored in the autoloader chamber high up in his Victor's right torso. He would have to use that single round carefully, because if the loader jammed, he would not get another chance." - The Sword and the Dagger, ch. 13

When the TROs talk about how the ENF-4R Enforcer (which only carries one ton of ammunition - enough for 10 salvos/"rounds" - for its AC/10) uses "big, ten-round clips that are easily slipped into and out of the 'Mech's back", the argument would be that the "clip" would refer to the whole 1-ton ammo bin (such that the 'Mech can be reloaded by sliding the expended ammo bin out & sliding a new one into its place) & each of those 10 "rounds" is itself a magazine/cassette containing a set of multiple individual shells that are all fired in a burst each time the trigger is pulled.

[WarHippy]

Strum Wealh, on 07 April 2015 - 10:08 AM, said:

When the TROs talk about how the ENF-4R Enforcer (which only carries one ton of ammunition - enough for 10 salvos/"rounds" - for its AC/10) uses "big, ten-round clips that are easily slipped into and out of the 'Mech's back", the argument would be that the "clip" would refer to the whole 1-ton ammo bin (such that the 'Mech can be reloaded by sliding the expended ammo bin out & sliding a new one into its place) & each of those 10 "rounds" is itself a magazine/cassette containing a set of multiple individual shells that are all fired in a burst each time the trigger is pulled.

I don't think I have ever seen a weapon that used both clips and magazines, and while the two often get confused due to their function they are different. 10 rounds is pretty specific and it would be a rather big stretch to say that 1 round is somehow actually multiple rounds that get counted as one.

[Strum Wealh]

WarHippy, on 07 April 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

I don't think I have ever seen a weapon that used both clips and magazines, and while the two often get confused due to their function they are different. 10 rounds is pretty specific and it would be a rather big stretch to say that 1 round is somehow actually multiple rounds that get counted as one.

It's not so much that the gun is using both clips (in the normal real-world sense of the word) and magazines, but that it's a layered structure that plays with "a widespread but commonly accepted looseness of terminology" within the BT universe:

• The "shells" are the individual projectiles/cartridges.
  
• The "rounds" are cassettes/magazines that contain multiple shells (per The Sword and the Dagger).
  
• The "clip" mentioned in the Enforcer TRO would be the ammo bin (containing 10 "rounds" (e.g. cassettes) for a metric ton of AC/10 ammunition).

To use the same terminology with another example: each "clip" (e.g. ammo bin) for the 185mm ChemJet Gun AC/20s of the Demolisher tank (which carries a total of 4 tons of ammo to support both AC/20s) would contain 5 "rounds" (e.g. cassettes), with each "round" containing 4 individual shells (as the ChemJet Guns fire four-shell bursts, per Era Report: 3052).
Similarly, each "clip" (e.g. ammo bin) for the 30mm SarLon AC/2 of the Warrior H-7 attack helicopter (which only carries 1 ton of ammo for its AC/2) would contain 45 "rounds" (e.g. cassettes), with each "round" containing 10 individual shells (as the SarLon fires ten-shell bursts, per TRO 3026).

So, in the lore and the TT game, when the MechWarrior fires an AC and marks a "round" off of the remaining ammo counter, it's not a single shell but a burst of multiple (most commonly, between 3 to 10... or as many as 100 in certain cases, like the Victor's Pontiac 100) individual shells.

[WarHippy]

Strum Wealh, on 07 April 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

It's not so much that the gun is using both clips (in the normal real-world sense of the word) and magazines, but that it's a layered structure that plays with "a widespread but commonly accepted looseness of terminology" within the BT universe:

• The "shells" are the individual projectiles/cartridges.
  
• The "rounds" are cassettes/magazines that contain multiple shells (per The Sword and the Dagger).
  
• The "clip" mentioned in the Enforcer TRO would be the ammo bin (containing 10 "rounds" (e.g. cassettes) for a metric ton of AC/10 ammunition).

To use the same terminology with another example: each "clip" (e.g. ammo bin) for the 185mm ChemJet Gun AC/20s of the Demolisher tank (which carries a total of 4 tons of ammo to support both AC/20s) would contain 5 "rounds" (e.g. cassettes), with each "round" containing 4 individual shells (as the ChemJet Guns fire four-shell bursts, per Era Report: 3052).

Similarly, each "clip" (e.g. ammo bin) for the 30mm SarLon AC/2 of the Warrior H-7 attack helicopter (which only carries 1 ton of ammo for its AC/2) would contain 45 "rounds" (e.g. cassettes), with each "round" containing 10 individual shells (as the SarLon fires ten-shell bursts, per TRO 3026).

So, in the lore and the TT game, when the MechWarrior fires an AC and marks a "round" off of the remaining ammo counter, it's not a single shell but a burst of multiple (most commonly, between 3 to 10... or as many as 100 in certain cases, like the Victor's Pontiac 100) individual shells.

This is why I have a hard time taking the fluff seriously because those are all incorrect definitions of those things if we use that description of the system. I would like to think the writers at least had some clue of what they were talking about(Although that part from The Sword and the Dagger really shows that at least that author didn't), and we ended up with this convoluted mess because of too many writers trying to reinvent the wheel every time they got their hands on the IP.

A round is a single unit of ammunition consisting of a projectile, propellant, primer, and casing to form a single cartridge/round. A shell is something else as well. A shell is a payload-carrying projectile normally explosive/incendiary. When the Enforcer is described as having only 10 rounds, and that it is reloaded with 10 round clips that is a pretty clear description that contradicts what you are describing without some serious mental gymnastics.

[Ovion]

Remember the Canon was made before such information was commonly available, the original writers filled in gaps and sometimes made stuff up.

In the real world, yes those words mean those things.

In the battletech universe, in the year 3000+,it means what the fluff says it does.

[Strum Wealh]

WarHippy, on 07 April 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

This is why I have a hard time taking the fluff seriously because those are all incorrect definitions of those things if we use that description of the system. I would like to think the writers at least had some clue of what they were talking about(Although that part from The Sword and the Dagger really shows that at least that author didn't), and we ended up with this convoluted mess because of too many writers trying to reinvent the wheel every time they got their hands on the IP.

A round is a single unit of ammunition consisting of a projectile, propellant, primer, and casing to form a single cartridge/round. A shell is something else as well. A shell is a payload-carrying projectile normally explosive/incendiary. When the Enforcer is described as having only 10 rounds, and that it is reloaded with 10 round clips that is a pretty clear description that contradicts what you are describing without some serious mental gymnastics.

In the specific case of the Enforcer, it's also explicitly supported by BT lore:

"'You're up against an Enforcer. That scrappy little SOB was born in the Federated Commonwealth. I know it well. He'll try to get in close and hit you with the autocannon or large laser. You can't survive more than three hits from either one.'
That much I know, Dawn thought irritably. Now tell me something I can use.
'It has two weaknesses, Dawn,' Hawkes said as if reading her mind. 'The ammo-feed system for the autocannon is subject to jamming and it can only carry ten bursts. He'll be trying to husband those salvos. The 'Mech is also vulnerable from the rear. The armor is very thin there. Gunner out.'" - Star Lord, ch. 19

The statements made in Star Lord are in-line with those made in TRO 3025:
"The only real problem with the mating of autocannon and 'Mech was, predictably, the feed system. Many an Enforcer prototype has its weapon jam. In some cases, the jamming round exploded, blowing off the 'Mech's entire arm and injuring the MechWarrior.
As good as the autocannon is, the Enforcer's one major flaw is that it can carry only ten rounds for it. Attempts to boost the number of rounds carried have proved either unreliable or have slowed the 'Mech down.
To meet this problem, Enforcers use big, ten-round clips that are easily slipped into and out of the 'Mech's back. If possible, a truck and crane system are parked close to Enforcers during battle to allow quick reloading of the 'Mech's autocannon. If the battle is too mobile and the Enforcer has no opportunities to reload, its pilot has no option but to mother his ten shots."

In Star Lord, we have an explicit, canonical statement indicating that the Enforcer's one ton of ammunition represents ten bursts - which puts it in-line with numerous other examples & descriptions of BT autocannon behavior, as well as with the description given in the TRO.

I will agree that they (the collective BT writers) should have been more consistently-correct in their use of terminology (e.g. using "rounds" to refer to single shells/cartridges, using "magazines" or "cassettes" to refer to what the unit of ammunition fired per-salvo (which consists of multiple shells), and so on), in order to make things more clear, but the evidence we have does solidly support the point of he Enforcer's AC/10 being a burst-fire weapon in canonical BattleTech.

[Cimarb]

Strum Wealh, on 06 April 2015 - 11:00 PM, said:

I'm guessing that Cimarb was referring to WarHippy, rather than yourself...?

Mostly, but my comment was general on purpose. I have been in many of these arguments, and even though the evidence is amazingly one-sided toward "burst", the argument against it is consistently revolving around defaming that evidence as "fluff" because they like slug autocannons and have no actual proof to the contrary.

WarHippy, on 07 April 2015 - 08:35 AM, said:

Yes I know one of the more current rule books allows for that, but for a long time it was all damage to one spot period. Fluff aside I have always preferred the one shell system over the burst setup, and never understood peoples obsession with duplicating it here.

This illustrates what I am saying perfectly. Instead of actually finding the proof to dispute it legitimately, you admit that it is completely based upon your preference.

Your argument that "for a long time it was all damage to one spot" is grounded in truth, but you are ignoring the "10-second turn" that the damage system was based upon.

If "all damage to one spot" is true, then we should also move our complete movement speed instantly, as they both happened during the same 10-second time period, and damage should only be applied every 10 seconds. I think we can all agree that is pretty silly.

Instead, we have the advanced rules to go by, since they were designed to give more realistic results. Those rules, as Strum has already went over in detail for everyone, show that autocannons can be walked across multiple targets due to the burst they fire.

This is also supported by every written mention of the weapons that anyone has provided so far. Even if you did happen to find a single example to support your side, it would pale in comparison to all of the examples against it.

[Bishop Steiner]

Cimarb, on 08 April 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

stuff

end of the day, we have what we have.

I like the IS ones, Clan ones need work.
Since the Clan ones are done as burst, and imply smaller caliber projectiles (though interestingly enough, the Cauldron Born with it's 203mm UAC20 is the closest speculated to an actual single shot.....lol), shorten the bursts (maybe 25%) and increase the projectile velocities 10-20%.

Change IS UAC (and ones to follow) to burst also. Maybe lower jam percent.

I like multiple damage mechanisms, it adds flavor. Honestly couldn't give a rat's **** about the fluff on this. Autocannon, like all other weapon descriptors are generics that cover a broad range of types. A 20 round burst out of a 203mm ac seems kinda dumb. But it makes a lot of sense out of a 75-85mm one. Variety is good.

Moving on.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 08 April 2015 - 04:50 PM.

[Cimarb]

Unfortunately, I agree with most of Bishop's post. We should have multiple damage mechanisms for each tech, ranging from single shot, incredibly slow versions (like a tank cannon), to incredibly fast burst versions (like an A10 autocannon)

[Armorine]

Bishop lets not rIn on the cauldron born parade. It was always my favorite clan mech. I still hope it spews death like in the novels..... But I'll take what I get. Honestly. Our whole weapon system needs a total rework. I'd love to see specific manufacturers brought into weapons selection.

EDIT: I'm exhausted. Just retread your post..... Totally agree.

Edited by Armorine, 08 April 2015 - 06:01 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

There are real world chain guns and revolver cannons. And I figure that the AC/10 and 20 Classes were simply bigger types of these autocannons with a faster rate of fire and possibly bigger shells.

Just need to tweak MWO weapon stats some.

Here are a few revolver examples:

Spoiler

[Odanan]

This is topic unrelated, but please tell me what do you think about this test I made (it's quick).
And tell me your results!

Battletech Faction Test

My result here.

Edited by Odanan, 09 April 2015 - 05:46 PM.

[Anjian]

This is how an Atlas and its main ballistic look by 3134. See Dat Gun of Justice?

Edited by Anjian, 09 April 2015 - 05:27 PM.

[SgtMagor]

still 2 months to go, but I cant wait to see any new updates on the wave 3 mechs especially the Executioner 95 ton jump jetting Clan Atlas.

[Armorine]

Anjian, on 09 April 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

This is how an Atlas and its main ballistic look by 3134. See Dat Gun of Justice?

Atlas III

[Nathan Foxbane]

Armorine, on 09 April 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

Atlas III

Atlas II mounts similar and it is a Star League era LB-X weapon.

[Armorine]

Yeah.... I want an atlas II. Don't think there's ever been one in any mw game

[Odanan]

Armorine, on 09 April 2015 - 08:58 PM, said:

Yeah.... I want an atlas II. Don't think there's ever been one in any mw game

I wish someday PGI will make a 2nd hero for each of the IS mechs (except the Dragon, right).
They would have a second chance to add more iconic heroes and interesting stuff:

- Battlemaster: Starbird;
- Atlas: some Atlas II mockup (swapping the hardpoints' locations will do);
- Orion: Revenant or Lady Death;
- Raven: a "Muninn" hero to pair with the Huginn;
- Stalker: maybe a STF-3Fb mockup (with ECM);
- King Crab: some like the KGC-010;
- Hunchback: Cloud Gatherer;
- Victor: Li Dok To's ("Warlord?");
- and so many more...

[CDLord HHGD]

Odanan, on 12 April 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

- Hunchback: Cloud Gatherer;

I see no reference to this on Sarna and, being a big fan of the HBK, I want to learnz!

[Strum Wealh]

cdlord, on 13 April 2015 - 06:03 AM, said:

I see no reference to this on Sarna and, being a big fan of the HBK, I want to learnz!

The Murakumi (supposedly "Cloud Gatherer" in Japanese; compare to "murakumo" ("a gathering of clouds" or "cloud masses")) is/was the personal Hunchback of one Commandant Isoroku Kurita, and was described in the original TRO 3025.

"Commander of the First Regiment, Sun Zhang Academy Cadre, lsoroku Kurita swears by the Hunchback and would not consider piloting any other. An expert in urban 'Mech combat, he is Takashi Kurita's nephew. He is presently more of an instructor than a front-line MechWarrior, however. lsoroku has taken part in over 30 engagements and destroyed 22 'Mechs while commanding his Hunchback, the Murakumi (Cloud-Gatherer). For example, he spearheaded the assault on the city of Barnstable in the Fourth Battle of Harrow's Sun. In that foray, he suffered head injuries when his Hunchback was knocked down by the rubble from a building collapsing nearby. While recuperating from this injury, he was given command of a cadre regiment."