Strum Wealh, on 07 April 2015 - 10:08 AM, said:


#10461
Posted 07 April 2015 - 11:26 AM
#10462
Posted 07 April 2015 - 12:22 PM
WarHippy, on 07 April 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:
It's not so much that the gun is using both clips (in the normal real-world sense of the word) and magazines, but that it's a layered structure that plays with "a widespread but commonly accepted looseness of terminology" within the BT universe:
- The "shells" are the individual projectiles/cartridges.
- The "rounds" are cassettes/magazines that contain multiple shells (per The Sword and the Dagger).
- The "clip" mentioned in the Enforcer TRO would be the ammo bin (containing 10 "rounds" (e.g. cassettes) for a metric ton of AC/10 ammunition).
Similarly, each "clip" (e.g. ammo bin) for the 30mm SarLon AC/2 of the Warrior H-7 attack helicopter (which only carries 1 ton of ammo for its AC/2) would contain 45 "rounds" (e.g. cassettes), with each "round" containing 10 individual shells (as the SarLon fires ten-shell bursts, per TRO 3026).
So, in the lore and the TT game, when the MechWarrior fires an AC and marks a "round" off of the remaining ammo counter, it's not a single shell but a burst of multiple (most commonly, between 3 to 10... or as many as 100 in certain cases, like the Victor's Pontiac 100) individual shells.
#10463
Posted 07 April 2015 - 01:07 PM
Strum Wealh, on 07 April 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:
- The "shells" are the individual projectiles/cartridges.
- The "rounds" are cassettes/magazines that contain multiple shells (per The Sword and the Dagger).
- The "clip" mentioned in the Enforcer TRO would be the ammo bin (containing 10 "rounds" (e.g. cassettes) for a metric ton of AC/10 ammunition).
Similarly, each "clip" (e.g. ammo bin) for the 30mm SarLon AC/2 of the Warrior H-7 attack helicopter (which only carries 1 ton of ammo for its AC/2) would contain 45 "rounds" (e.g. cassettes), with each "round" containing 10 individual shells (as the SarLon fires ten-shell bursts, per TRO 3026).
So, in the lore and the TT game, when the MechWarrior fires an AC and marks a "round" off of the remaining ammo counter, it's not a single shell but a burst of multiple (most commonly, between 3 to 10... or as many as 100 in certain cases, like the Victor's Pontiac 100) individual shells.
This is why I have a hard time taking the fluff seriously because those are all incorrect definitions of those things if we use that description of the system. I would like to think the writers at least had some clue of what they were talking about(Although that part from The Sword and the Dagger really shows that at least that author didn't), and we ended up with this convoluted mess because of too many writers trying to reinvent the wheel every time they got their hands on the IP.
A round is a single unit of ammunition consisting of a projectile, propellant, primer, and casing to form a single cartridge/round. A shell is something else as well. A shell is a payload-carrying projectile normally explosive/incendiary. When the Enforcer is described as having only 10 rounds, and that it is reloaded with 10 round clips that is a pretty clear description that contradicts what you are describing without some serious mental gymnastics.
#10464
Posted 07 April 2015 - 02:18 PM
In the real world, yes those words mean those things.
In the battletech universe, in the year 3000+,it means what the fluff says it does.
#10465
Posted 07 April 2015 - 02:34 PM
WarHippy, on 07 April 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:
A round is a single unit of ammunition consisting of a projectile, propellant, primer, and casing to form a single cartridge/round. A shell is something else as well. A shell is a payload-carrying projectile normally explosive/incendiary. When the Enforcer is described as having only 10 rounds, and that it is reloaded with 10 round clips that is a pretty clear description that contradicts what you are describing without some serious mental gymnastics.
In the specific case of the Enforcer, it's also explicitly supported by BT lore:
"'You're up against an Enforcer. That scrappy little SOB was born in the Federated Commonwealth. I know it well. He'll try to get in close and hit you with the autocannon or large laser. You can't survive more than three hits from either one.'
That much I know, Dawn thought irritably. Now tell me something I can use.
'It has two weaknesses, Dawn,' Hawkes said as if reading her mind. 'The ammo-feed system for the autocannon is subject to jamming and it can only carry ten bursts. He'll be trying to husband those salvos. The 'Mech is also vulnerable from the rear. The armor is very thin there. Gunner out.'" - Star Lord, ch. 19
The statements made in Star Lord are in-line with those made in TRO 3025:
"The only real problem with the mating of autocannon and 'Mech was, predictably, the feed system. Many an Enforcer prototype has its weapon jam. In some cases, the jamming round exploded, blowing off the 'Mech's entire arm and injuring the MechWarrior.
As good as the autocannon is, the Enforcer's one major flaw is that it can carry only ten rounds for it. Attempts to boost the number of rounds carried have proved either unreliable or have slowed the 'Mech down.
To meet this problem, Enforcers use big, ten-round clips that are easily slipped into and out of the 'Mech's back. If possible, a truck and crane system are parked close to Enforcers during battle to allow quick reloading of the 'Mech's autocannon. If the battle is too mobile and the Enforcer has no opportunities to reload, its pilot has no option but to mother his ten shots."
In Star Lord, we have an explicit, canonical statement indicating that the Enforcer's one ton of ammunition represents ten bursts - which puts it in-line with numerous other examples & descriptions of BT autocannon behavior, as well as with the description given in the TRO.
I will agree that they (the collective BT writers) should have been more consistently-correct in their use of terminology (e.g. using "rounds" to refer to single shells/cartridges, using "magazines" or "cassettes" to refer to what the unit of ammunition fired per-salvo (which consists of multiple shells), and so on), in order to make things more clear, but the evidence we have does solidly support the point of he Enforcer's AC/10 being a burst-fire weapon in canonical BattleTech.
#10466
Posted 08 April 2015 - 04:24 PM
Strum Wealh, on 06 April 2015 - 11:00 PM, said:

Mostly, but my comment was general on purpose. I have been in many of these arguments, and even though the evidence is amazingly one-sided toward "burst", the argument against it is consistently revolving around defaming that evidence as "fluff" because they like slug autocannons and have no actual proof to the contrary.
WarHippy, on 07 April 2015 - 08:35 AM, said:
This illustrates what I am saying perfectly. Instead of actually finding the proof to dispute it legitimately, you admit that it is completely based upon your preference.
Your argument that "for a long time it was all damage to one spot" is grounded in truth, but you are ignoring the "10-second turn" that the damage system was based upon.
If "all damage to one spot" is true, then we should also move our complete movement speed instantly, as they both happened during the same 10-second time period, and damage should only be applied every 10 seconds. I think we can all agree that is pretty silly.
Instead, we have the advanced rules to go by, since they were designed to give more realistic results. Those rules, as Strum has already went over in detail for everyone, show that autocannons can be walked across multiple targets due to the burst they fire.
This is also supported by every written mention of the weapons that anyone has provided so far. Even if you did happen to find a single example to support your side, it would pale in comparison to all of the examples against it.
#10467
Posted 08 April 2015 - 04:48 PM
Cimarb, on 08 April 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:
end of the day, we have what we have.
I like the IS ones, Clan ones need work.
Since the Clan ones are done as burst, and imply smaller caliber projectiles (though interestingly enough, the Cauldron Born with it's 203mm UAC20 is the closest speculated to an actual single shot.....lol), shorten the bursts (maybe 25%) and increase the projectile velocities 10-20%.
Change IS UAC (and ones to follow) to burst also. Maybe lower jam percent.
I like multiple damage mechanisms, it adds flavor. Honestly couldn't give a rat's **** about the fluff on this. Autocannon, like all other weapon descriptors are generics that cover a broad range of types. A 20 round burst out of a 203mm ac seems kinda dumb. But it makes a lot of sense out of a 75-85mm one. Variety is good.
Moving on.
Edited by Bishop Steiner, 08 April 2015 - 04:50 PM.
#10468
Posted 08 April 2015 - 05:52 PM
#10469
Posted 08 April 2015 - 06:01 PM
EDIT: I'm exhausted. Just retread your post..... Totally agree.
Edited by Armorine, 08 April 2015 - 06:01 PM.
#10470
Posted 08 April 2015 - 06:11 PM
Just need to tweak MWO weapon stats some.
Here are a few revolver examples:
#10471
Posted 09 April 2015 - 03:45 PM
And tell me your results!
Battletech Faction Test
My result here.
Edited by Odanan, 09 April 2015 - 05:46 PM.
#10472
Posted 09 April 2015 - 05:26 PM
Edited by Anjian, 09 April 2015 - 05:27 PM.
#10473
Posted 09 April 2015 - 06:41 PM
#10476
Posted 09 April 2015 - 08:58 PM
#10477
Posted 12 April 2015 - 05:42 AM
Armorine, on 09 April 2015 - 08:58 PM, said:
I wish someday PGI will make a 2nd hero for each of the IS mechs (except the Dragon, right).
They would have a second chance to add more iconic heroes and interesting stuff:
- Battlemaster: Starbird;
- Atlas: some Atlas II mockup (swapping the hardpoints' locations will do);
- Orion: Revenant or Lady Death;
- Raven: a "Muninn" hero to pair with the Huginn;
- Stalker: maybe a STF-3Fb mockup (with ECM);
- King Crab: some like the KGC-010;
- Hunchback: Cloud Gatherer;
- Victor: Li Dok To's ("Warlord?");
- and so many more...
#10479
Posted 13 April 2015 - 06:35 AM
cdlord, on 13 April 2015 - 06:03 AM, said:

The Murakumi (supposedly "Cloud Gatherer" in Japanese; compare to "murakumo" ("a gathering of clouds" or "cloud masses")) is/was the personal Hunchback of one Commandant Isoroku Kurita, and was described in the original TRO 3025.
"Commander of the First Regiment, Sun Zhang Academy Cadre, lsoroku Kurita swears by the Hunchback and would not consider piloting any other. An expert in urban 'Mech combat, he is Takashi Kurita's nephew. He is presently more of an instructor than a front-line MechWarrior, however. lsoroku has taken part in over 30 engagements and destroyed 22 'Mechs while commanding his Hunchback, the Murakumi (Cloud-Gatherer). For example, he spearheaded the assault on the city of Barnstable in the Fourth Battle of Harrow's Sun. In that foray, he suffered head injuries when his Hunchback was knocked down by the rubble from a building collapsing nearby. While recuperating from this injury, he was given command of a cadre regiment."
#10480
Posted 13 April 2015 - 06:50 AM
Strum Wealh, on 13 April 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:
"Commander of the First Regiment, Sun Zhang Academy Cadre, lsoroku Kurita swears by the Hunchback and would not consider piloting any other. An expert in urban 'Mech combat, he is Takashi Kurita's nephew. He is presently more of an instructor than a front-line MechWarrior, however. lsoroku has taken part in over 30 engagements and destroyed 22 'Mechs while commanding his Hunchback, the Murakumi (Cloud-Gatherer). For example, he spearheaded the assault on the city of Barnstable in the Fourth Battle of Harrow's Sun. In that foray, he suffered head injuries when his Hunchback was knocked down by the rubble from a building collapsing nearby. While recuperating from this injury, he was given command of a cadre regiment."
Neat info, so it is on Sarna, just my Japanese is a bit rusty.

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