20517 replies to this topic

[MeiSooHaityu]

Nathan Foxbane, on 21 October 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

They use Standards because of lore and economics. Resources are not exactly plentiful on the Clan Homeworlds and advanced Clan tech uses more and harder to get/manufacture resources than IS tech. It's why most Clan vehicles do not have fusion engines if they can help it. And since their bidding process forces a commander to make the most with the least, a commander can bid more inferior units if need be. The Stooping Hawk is made by Clan Blood Spirit, the smallest, most resource strapped Clan. They cannot afford to put XLs in too many 'Mechs.

That is a cool bit of info, thank you for sharing.

I was speaking more in the context of MWO though. Economics and availability aren't a factor, so it was more along the lines of, why would a clan player feel a STD engine would be superior to a Clan XL. In almost ever case (except for 2 gauss rifles in a side torso I suppose), a Clan XL is superior in MWO hands down.

[CDLord HHGD]

MeiSooHaityu, on 21 October 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

That is a cool bit of info, thank you for sharing.

I was speaking more in the context of MWO though. Economics and availability aren't a factor, so it was more along the lines of, why would a clan player feel a STD engine would be superior to a Clan XL. In almost ever case (except for 2 gauss rifles in a side torso I suppose), a Clan XL is superior in MWO hands down.

Economics, availability, and logistics SHOULD be factors though..... No much missed potential....

[MeiSooHaityu]

cdlord, on 21 October 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

Economics, availability, and logistics SHOULD be factors though..... No much missed potential....

They tried it once (repair and rearm), but making a player break even or even lose C-Bills from a death by running more expensive equip like XLs, DHS, and Endo didn't go over well. You think the Pauleconomy is bad now, think about back then when the only players who could run better equipment (and consistently do better than break even or a loss) were players running Hero mechs and/or Premium Time.

In a title like this, there is no good way to truly implement economics into the fold without going P2W. Well, if there was, it would be incredibly slow and complicated process that would alienate the player base before it was finalized.

[CDLord HHGD]

MeiSooHaityu, on 21 October 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

They tried it once (repair and rearm), but making a player break even or even lose C-Bills from a death by running more expensive equip like XLs, DHS, and Endo didn't go over well. You think the Pauleconomy is bad now, think about back then when the only players who could run better equipment (and consistently do better than break even or a loss) were players running Hero mechs and/or Premium Time.

In a title like this, there is no good way to truly implement economics into the fold without going P2W. Well, if there was, it would be incredibly slow and complicated process that would alienate the player base before it was finalized.

It doesn't have to be a pure monetary tax though. I thrived during R&R and I'm no L33T.... Something as simple as a paywall. This is risky and people will immediately rage against it, but hear me out.

You can buy a SMN now or you can order a TBR and it'll arrive in x hours/days/whatever. If people don't want to pay money, virtual spacebucks or otherwise, use time (or something else if you can think of something).

if it takes 30 minutes of play (average) to gross 1 million spacebucks, then in order to fix 1 million spacebucks worth of stuff, it takes 30 minutes.

This isn't perfect and a 1:1 ratio isn't ideal either. Just trying to get the gears turning for alternatives to a monetary R&R.

We absolutely do not want a real money cost.
A spacebuck cost didn't go over too well.
XP/GXP won't go over too well either.

Time is something people may not like, but will deal with. Hell, it takes me DAYS to upgrade a single item on my Clash of Clans game. Could even make your tier a partial factor of the equation....

And to be fair, the timer runs all the time, not just when you are logged in (like PT).

One could even make the timer a bar across the screen and turn it into a little mini-game. Spacebucks to make it go faster!

Edited by cdlord, 21 October 2015 - 11:02 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

MeiSooHaityu, on 21 October 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

They tried it once (repair and rearm), but making a player break even or even lose C-Bills from a death by running more expensive equip like XLs, DHS, and Endo didn't go over well.

Yet, PGI took the arguably-wrong approach of removing R&R, instead of leaving it in and letting it serve as an additional control on the proliferation of said expensive equipment.

Like they say in EVE, "don't fly what you can't afford to lose".

[Odanan]

Strum Wealh, on 21 October 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

Yet, PGI took the arguably-wrong approach of removing R&R, instead of leaving it in and letting it serve as an additional control on the proliferation of said expensive equipment.

Like they say in EVE, "don't fly what you can't afford to lose".

If only people with Premium and hero/special mechs are able to field (and keep) the best equipment = P2W.

[CDLord HHGD]

Odanan, on 21 October 2015 - 01:52 PM, said:

If only people with Premium and hero/special mechs are able to field (and keep) the best equipment = P2W.

Which is what I alluded to above. Use a cost mechanic that isn't affected by anything. For what I can think, that cost is time. If someone else has a better substitute, I'm all ears.

[ShadowbaneX]

I don't suppose if Support would take back my Resistance 2 pack and give me a Warhammer pack instead, would they?

[Nathan Foxbane]

MeiSooHaityu, on 21 October 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

In a title like this, there is no good way to truly implement economics into the fold without going P2W. Well, if there was, it would be incredibly slow and complicated process that would alienate the player base before it was finalized.

The only reason my Catapult surpassed my Cents as money makers back then was because it had the Founder's bonus (and LRMs weren't a sad joke). My tough as nails 9-A and nimble 9-D ripped 'Mechs to pieces in group drops. I was also smart enough to run CASE back then because it performed its actual function and reduced the cost of engine repairs.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 21 October 2015 - 08:17 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nathan Foxbane, on 21 October 2015 - 08:15 PM, said:

The only reason my Catapult surpassed my Cents as money makers back then was because it had the Founder's bonus (and LRMs weren't a sad joke). My tough as nails 9-A and nimble 9-D ripped 'Mechs to pieces in group drops. I was also smart enough to run CASE back then because it performed its actual function and reduced the cost of engine repairs.

ah..the good old days... was such a grind usually was knocking at 1 billion cbills every wipe.
Medium MEchs with CASE....and usually STD engines.... money makers.... saving the more exotic XL mechs and heavier stuff for must have missions....

oddly...just like Battletech was supposed to be.

[Karl Streiger]

cdlord, on 21 October 2015 - 01:56 PM, said:

Which is what I alluded to above. Use a cost mechanic that isn't affected by anything. For what I can think, that cost is time. If someone else has a better substitute, I'm all ears.

TLDR; earing repair points while playing; income of repair points is fixed - and can't be modified by Premium/hero bonus or else.
loosing your most expensive T1 Mech - you need to earn more CVP by plaing less expensive mechs or getting a good win with another T1 Mech (that shouldn't be damaged to much)

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4750763

[MeiSooHaityu]

Strum Wealh, on 21 October 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

Yet, PGI took the arguably-wrong approach of removing R&R, instead of leaving it in and letting it serve as an additional control on the proliferation of said expensive equipment.

Like they say in EVE, "don't fly what you can't afford to lose".

I disagree. I think it was better to leave R&R out. Giving a clear advantage to paying players vs non-paying players is not a good mechanic for balance.

Now, if C-Bill boosted mechs and Premium Time didn't exist, and there were no boosters of any type for earning C-Bills, then R&R would be fair..er. Now all players whether they play for free or not are subject to the same earning scale. Then you could possibly look at R&R again.

As it stands now, as long as C-Bill boosters exist, it places a divide because paying players could run what they want and not worry about wins or losses whereas a new free player is forced to run as cheap a setup as they can to earn any amount of money consistently. That means a new player is running STD engine and armor along with SHS (because repairing more advanced engines, heat sinks, and structure is too expensive in a loss).

That's just bad balance. Like i said though, if everyone regardless of a free player or paid player earned the same revenue per match (no c-bill boosters), then i think there would be a stronger case for an R&R system.

Again, that's just my opinion.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 22 October 2015 - 02:40 AM.

[Odanan]

MeiSooHaityu, on 22 October 2015 - 02:37 AM, said:

I disagree. I think it was better to leave R&R out. Giving a clear advantage to paying players vs non-paying players is not a good mechanic for balance.

Now, if C-Bill boosted mechs and Premium Time didn't exist, and there were no boosters of any type for earning C-Bills, then R&R would be fair..er. Now all players whether they play for free or not are subject to the same earning scale. Then you could possibly look at R&R again.

As it stands now, as long as C-Bill boosters exist, it places a divide because paying players could run what they want and not worry about wins or losses whereas a new free player is forced to run as cheap a setup as they can to earn any amount of money consistently. That means a new player is running STD engine and armor along with SHS (because repairing more advanced engines, heat sinks, and structure is too expensive in a loss).

That's just bad balance. Like i said though, if everyone regardless of a free player or paid player earned the same revenue per match (no c-bill boosters), then i think there would be a stronger case for an R&R system.

Again, that's just my opinion.

Totally agree.

[CDLord HHGD]

MeiSooHaityu, on 22 October 2015 - 02:37 AM, said:

I disagree. I think it was better to leave R&R out. Giving a clear advantage to paying players vs non-paying players is not a good mechanic for balance.

Now, if C-Bill boosted mechs and Premium Time didn't exist, and there were no boosters of any type for earning C-Bills, then R&R would be fair..er. Now all players whether they play for free or not are subject to the same earning scale. Then you could possibly look at R&R again.

As it stands now, as long as C-Bill boosters exist, it places a divide because paying players could run what they want and not worry about wins or losses whereas a new free player is forced to run as cheap a setup as they can to earn any amount of money consistently. That means a new player is running STD engine and armor along with SHS (because repairing more advanced engines, heat sinks, and structure is too expensive in a loss).

That's just bad balance. Like i said though, if everyone regardless of a free player or paid player earned the same revenue per match (no c-bill boosters), then i think there would be a stronger case for an R&R system.

Again, that's just my opinion.

Replace cbills with something we all have that cannot be modified like a wait time. One second per armor/hit point to repair. No way to modify this though I would consider a cbill cost to decrease this time as an optional cbill sink but testing is required. ES/FF/Artemis would be immune to this mechanic so only really talking about armor, structure, and components (those with a hitpoint rating). I am drafting this more fully and will post it on a separate thread.

[Red Shrike]

I find it a little hard to understand how R&R could be a P2W feature. Games like World of Tanks and War Thunder have it, and it's nowhere near P2W.

Maybe I'm missing something here?

[Strum Wealh]

cdlord, on 22 October 2015 - 04:34 AM, said:

Replace cbills with something we all have that cannot be modified like a wait time. One second per armor/hit point to repair. No way to modify this though I would consider a cbill cost to decrease this time as an optional cbill sink but testing is required. ES/FF/Artemis would be immune to this mechanic so only really talking about armor, structure, and components (those with a hitpoint rating). I am drafting this more fully and will post it on a separate thread.

ES is "structure".
FF is "armor".
Artemis systems are "components".
DHS are "components".

They should not be excluded/immune from R&R mechanics.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Timberwolf581, on 22 October 2015 - 04:53 AM, said:

I find it a little hard to understand how R&R could be a P2W feature. Games like World of Tanks and War Thunder have it, and it's nowhere near P2W.

Maybe I'm missing something here?

Spend real money to guarentee you earn money. Not spend real money, and possibly lose money or break even 50% of the time if you equip your mech with essential equipment (Like DHS since DHS is a large added cost).

Its true you aren't directly paying for a win, but look at it this way...

If a person using Premium Time and say a Hero mech can always earn C-Bills no matter what he equips his mechs with when incurrinig a loss and death, but a free player can't (so he is forced to play it safe and always run a STD engine and SHS), then isn't the paying player buying himself and advantage (being able to advance c-bills under any circumstance running the more expensive top of the line equipment)?

Sure in theory a free player has the same option to run Endo, DHS, and an XL, but if that player can hardly earn C-Bills in the long term (with short term losses), is itperson going to be happy playing? Is that person going to look at the paying player just banking C-Bills and think he truly can compete when the few mechs the player has can't be fixed or rearmed unless he runs the basic equipment.

I don't know how WoT does it, but I can't see R&R working with MWOs system and not alienating it's free players. We complain about the Pauleconomy and the grind now, imagine it with R&R.

[Red Shrike]

MeiSooHaityu, on 22 October 2015 - 05:41 AM, said:

Spend real money to guarentee you earn money. Not spend real money, and possibly lose money or break even 50% of the time if you equip your mech with essential equipment (Like DHS since DHS is a large added cost).

Its true you aren't directly paying for a win, but look at it this way...

If a person using Premium Time and say a Hero mech can always earn C-Bills no matter what he equips his mechs with when incurrinig a loss and death, but a free player can't (so he is forced to play it safe and always run a STD engine and SHS), then isn't the paying player buying himself and advantage (being able to advance c-bills under any circumstance running the more expensive top of the line equipment)?

Sure in theory a free player has the same option to run Endo, DHS, and an XL, but if that player can hardly earn C-Bills in the long term (with short term losses), is itperson going to be happy playing? Is that person going to look at the paying player just banking C-Bills and think he truly can compete when the few mechs the player has can't be fixed or rearmed unless he runs the basic equipment.

I don't know how WoT does it, but I can't see R&R working with MWOs system and not alienating it's free players. We complain about the Pauleconomy and the grind now, imagine it with R&R.

I never mentioned needing to spend real money to break even. I do imagine FF, Endo and DHS increasing the repaircost. This should however not result in a loss of C-bills (except maybe completely decked out 100-tonners). I also imagine light mechs cheaper to maintain than assault mechs.

How WoT does it? World of Tanks runs from Tier 1 till Tier 10. Until about Tier 7-8 you manage to earn a profit or at least break even. At Tier 9 and 10 you lose money, and only if you manage to kill the entire enemy team by yourself will you turn a profit.

It used to have R&R and I was happy with it. Then they removed it, and hit the income with the nerfbat.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Timberwolf581, on 22 October 2015 - 06:07 AM, said:

I never mentioned needing to spend real money to break even. I do imagine FF, Endo and DHS increasing the repaircost. This should however not result in a loss of C-bills (except maybe completely decked out 100-tonners). I also imagine light mechs cheaper to maintain than assault mechs.

How WoT does it? World of Tanks runs from Tier 1 till Tier 10. Until about Tier 7-8 you manage to earn a profit or at least break even. At Tier 9 and 10 you lose money, and only if you manage to kill the entire enemy team by yourself will you turn a profit.

It used to have R&R and I was happy with it. Then they removed it, and hit the income with the nerfbat.

I was here when MWO tried Repair and Rearm. Earnings on a loss with an XL engine was abysmal. People even reported C-Bill losses with some load outs.

The problem is, is that fun? At the end of the day, a game needs to be fun to maintain a player base.

If R&R was added tomorrow, I'd be fine. I have plenty of days of Premium Time, tons of mechs to play, and a crap ton of C-Bill boosted mechs. Heck, I'd hardly feel a loss and wins would be awesome (especially because I'm sure the economy would see a buff). I'd be doing just fine.

But, would a new player with only 1 or 2 mechs and no boosters be doing fine and having fun? I'm doubting it. They have a string of bad luck, can't fix their mech, haven't earned C-Bills, they are not having fun.

P.S. I also don't see it helping the laser vomit either. If I have to pay for ammo, an ammo-less weapon loadout is looking pretty lucrative.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 22 October 2015 - 06:20 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Strum Wealh, on 22 October 2015 - 05:40 AM, said:

ES is "structure".
FF is "armor".
Artemis systems are "components".
DHS are "components".

They should not be excluded/immune from R&R mechanics.

What I mean is that there is no "extra" cost because of these upgrades. There is no time difference between standard structure and Endo-Steel structure. SHS and DHS do have listed health points.