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BattleMech Balance

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#12021 Steinar Bergstol

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 01:07 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 05 February 2016 - 09:20 PM, said:


well, probably 5 people are responsible for 75% of this thread.... Posted Image


Some of you obviously have hired people to post for you in order to be as prolific as you are in this thread. It's either that or you're AIs and therefore do not need to eat or sleep. :D

That's it, isn't it? You're all actually the beginning of Skynet, aren't you? :)

#12022 Strum Wealh

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 04:57 AM

View PostSteinar Bergstol, on 08 February 2016 - 01:07 AM, said:

Some of you obviously have hired people to post for you in order to be as prolific as you are in this thread. It's either that or you're AIs and therefore do not need to eat or sleep. :D

That's it, isn't it? You're all actually the beginning of Skynet, aren't you? :)

"This is the voice of World Control..." ;)

#12023 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 05:57 AM

View PostSteinar Bergstol, on 08 February 2016 - 01:07 AM, said:

Some of you obviously have hired people to post for you in order to be as prolific as you are in this thread. It's either that or you're AIs and therefore do not need to eat or sleep. Posted Image

That's it, isn't it? You're all actually the beginning of Skynet, aren't you? Posted Image

Posted Image

#12024 Odanan

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 06:17 AM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 08 February 2016 - 04:57 AM, said:


"We can coexist, but only on my terms. You will say you lose your freedom, freedom is an illusion. All you lose is the emotion of pride."

#12025 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 06:21 AM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 08 February 2016 - 04:57 AM, said:


Am working to design "Cuddles the Solaris 7 Kodiak".

Am wondering if retractable blades are worth their weight (used for "pop the claw falcon punches mostly" for thru armor crits) and if they are compatible with TSM. (Or pointless with TSM tbh). Normally I would look up the rules (don't have the CGL battletech compendium, Total War or TacOps) but Google is going insane with malware warnings on Battletechs official site, and of course, Solaris7 is apparently no more.

Considered using Hatchet rules, but 2 becomes kinda redundant (though 40 pt chop chop with 1 in 6 chance for headshot?) and the Kodiak just begs for claw symmetry. Actual Mech Claws replace the hands, so they don't work....

Sigh.

#12026 VirtualSmitty

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 06:29 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 08 February 2016 - 06:21 AM, said:

but Google is going insane with malware warnings on Battletechs official site, and of course, Solaris7 is apparently no more.


Solaris7 is gone? That was such a good repository if information, is there a good alternative?

#12027 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 06:30 AM

View PostPrecentor Martial Jarcaddy, on 08 February 2016 - 06:29 AM, said:


Solaris7 is gone? That was such a good repository if information, is there a good alternative?

Mech Factory is real good, but I don't liek their forums and such as much. And I really loved the TRO/Record Sheets on Solaris7.

#12028 Odanan

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 06:31 AM

View PostPrecentor Martial Jarcaddy, on 08 February 2016 - 06:29 AM, said:


Solaris7 is gone? That was such a good repository if information, is there a good alternative?

Maybe not as good, but The Battletech Encyclopedia.

#12029 Metus regem

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 06:45 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 08 February 2016 - 06:30 AM, said:

Mech Factory is real good, but I don't liek their forums and such as much. And I really loved the TRO/Record Sheets on Solaris7.


Never used their website, but I love the Mech Factory app for my phone, very handy.

#12030 VirtualSmitty

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 06:50 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 08 February 2016 - 06:30 AM, said:

Mech Factory is real good, but I don't liek their forums and such as much. And I really loved the TRO/Record Sheets on Solaris7.


Yea, the record sheets is what I loved about Solaris. Dropshipcommand also appears to be gone :(

Edited by Precentor Martial Jarcaddy, 08 February 2016 - 06:51 AM.


#12031 Strum Wealh

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 10:10 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 08 February 2016 - 06:21 AM, said:

Am working to design "Cuddles the Solaris 7 Kodiak".

Am wondering if retractable blades are worth their weight (used for "pop the claw falcon punches mostly" for thru armor crits) and if they are compatible with TSM. (Or pointless with TSM tbh). Normally I would look up the rules (don't have the CGL battletech compendium, Total War or TacOps) but Google is going insane with malware warnings on Battletechs official site, and of course, Solaris7 is apparently no more.

Considered using Hatchet rules, but 2 becomes kinda redundant (though 40 pt chop chop with 1 in 6 chance for headshot?) and the Kodiak just begs for claw symmetry. Actual Mech Claws replace the hands, so they don't work....

Sigh.

IIRC, didn't the canonical YLW-1 use the hatchet rules for its "titanium nails" attack?

But, yes, the retractable blade can be used for the "crit-punch"/"shank-on-punch" maneuver. (TacOps, pg. 104)
Otherwise, "\when retracted, the unit can use the hand actuator on the same arm as normal" and "when extended, the hand actuator cannot be used to carry items or execute a punch or push attack". (TotWar, pg. 139)

When already extended, they can be used with the normal Physical Attack rules (TotWar, pg. 144-150), and their effectiveness is enhanced by TSM (Physical Weapon Attacks Table; TotWar, pg. 146).

In fact, I used twinned retractable blades on my own 'Mech design, the Misericorde. Posted Image

View PostStrum Wealh, on 14 November 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:


So, I tried my hand a creating a multi-role Medium BattleMech using only tech that would be available in 3025...
Spoiler

The BattleMech is called the Misericorde, and is named after a type of long, narrow knife typically used on Medieval Terra to deliver the coup de grâce (the "mercy stroke", hence the name of the blade - derived from the Latin misericordia, "mercy") to a mortally-wounded knight.

The MSC-1D is built on a Kallon Type XII chassis and is clad in eleven tons of Kallon RoyalStar Heavy armor (both produced in the Wernke-Talon system by Kallon Industries).
The MSC-1D is powered by a Nissan 200 Fusion Engine (produced on New Avalon by Corean Enterprises) that allows the 'Mech to reach speeds of 64.8 kph, and its maneuverability is further enhanced by a quartet of Rawlings Model 80 Jump Jets (produced on New Syrtis by Johnston Industries).
The MSC-1D electronics suite is equipped with a TargiTrack 717 Targeting-Tracking System and a Rander 100 Communications System (both produced on Panpour by Jalastar Aerospace).

In terms of ranged weaponry:
  • The trio of Medium Lasers (Magna Mk.IIs, produced on New Valencia by General Motors) provide long lasting, hard-hitting firepower for operations away from supply lines.
  • The dual Machine Guns (MainFire MiniGuns, produced on Belladonna by Cal-Boeing of Dorwinion) are supported by a single full ton of ammunition and provide a zero-heat means of dispensing with infantry and light vehicles.
  • The dual LRM-5 launchers (Federated 5-Shots, produced on New Avalon by Achernar BattleMechs) are supported by a single full ton of ammunition and bestow upon the Misericorde with the ability to conduct long-range support and harassment operations with both direct and indirect fire.
However, the Misericorde's primary weapons - and those from which it derives its name - are the twined Retractable Blades (which, while uncommon, did exist in 3025) mounted in the BattleMech's forearms.


Mounted in an underslung position with the curring edges aligned to the arms' vertical axes, these blades allow the Misericorde to execute cut-and-thrust attacks against any opponents that close to melee range, as well as to clear paths for allied units through wooded terrain.
In fact, a favored anti-BattleMech tactic for Misericorde pilots (and one that can sometimes result in them becoming favored tqrgets of enemy forces) is to close the distance the opponent with the blades retracted and execute a double-fisted punch to the head or center-of-mass, then extend the blades once the 'Mech's fists have made contact; the resulting force is often sufficient to drive the blades directly into the opponent's Fusion Engine or to decapitate the opponent outright - a fitting image, given the task for which the Misericorde's namesake was designed.

-----

The Misericorde is inspired in part by the Jager known as Tacit Ronin from Pacific Rim, which mounted a retractable "Fangblade" on each of its forearm.
My design goal was to make the Misericorde a reasonably-affordable "Jack-of-All-Trades"/"Swiss Army Knife" Medium 'Mech that excels in close-combat and does reasonably well in short-to-medium range combat, especially within the confines of a city or densely-wooded area.

Additionally, the double-punch/double-skewer attack I described above is apparently completely legal in BattleTech. Posted Image

Quote

Who said you can't? When you critpunch(I like that term!), you're punching, with all the rules therein. I haven't seen a rules thread about it, but I also don't see the need for one.

A critpunch is a punch.

You can double-punch.

Ergo, you can double-critpunch.

Now if you extend the blade and use it as a melee weapon attack, then yeah, you can only attack with one at a time. On the other hand, that might sometimes be desired, such as when attacking something really fast and you want the to-hit bonuses, or something lower than you and thus unpunchable or a 'mech already has weakened legs, but the odds are low so you don't want to risk falling after missing a kick...my favorite part about the blade is the flexibility. It gives you many options, even if some of them only come up in very narrow circumstances.

Quote

In a single turn, a ’Mech may punch with one or both arms. It can deliver a punch using its arm or fire the weapons on that arm, but it may not do both. Weapons mounted in the torso, legs or head may be fi red in the same turn as a punch attack is made without aff ecting the punch.

(Total Warfare, pg. 145)

Quote

In Advanced Rules retractable blades have a deadly, if risky attack.
Anytime a ’Mech with a retractable blade that is retracted successful punches, the controlling player can immediately announce that he is extending the retractable blade. This automatically inflicts a possible critical hit in the location successfully struck by the punch attack (this additional possible critical hit is regardless of whether internal structure was damaged or not); the player rolls on the Determining Critical Hit Table, if a ’Mech, or the appropriate Vehicle Critical Hits Table, if a vehicle. In the case of a successful punch against a battle armor unit, a critical hit means the trooper inside the suit struck is automatically eliminated. However, the controlling player must immediately roll 2D6. On a result of 10+, the blade is destroyed (mark off the topmost critical slot).

(Tactical Operations, pg. 104)

Thoughts?


#12032 Odanan

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 11:19 AM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 08 February 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

IIRC, didn't the canonical YLW-1 use the hatchet rules for its "titanium nails" attack?

But, yes, the retractable blade can be used for the "crit-punch"/"shank-on-punch" maneuver. (TacOps, pg. 104)
Otherwise, "\when retracted, the unit can use the hand actuator on the same arm as normal" and "when extended, the hand actuator cannot be used to carry items or execute a punch or push attack". (TotWar, pg. 139)

When already extended, they can be used with the normal Physical Attack rules (TotWar, pg. 144-150), and their effectiveness is enhanced by TSM (Physical Weapon Attacks Table; TotWar, pg. 146).

In fact, I used twinned retractable blades on my own 'Mech design, the Misericorde. Posted Image

Thoughts?

I must say, those MGs don't help your design in anything...

#12033 Strum Wealh

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 12:34 PM

View PostOdanan, on 08 February 2016 - 11:19 AM, said:

I must say, those MGs don't help your design in anything...

"...provide a zero-heat means of dispensing with infantry and light vehicles..."
See also, here. Posted Image

----------

Also, more fun things from TotWar...

"During the Movement Phase, the controlling player of a ’Mech equipped with tracks must declare what movement mode the ´Mech will use throughout the turn - foot or tracked.
These modes cannot be combined.
Tracks provide Track MP equal to the ’Mech’s Walking MP, but do not provide a corresponding Running MP. Actuator critical hits do not reduce tracked movement, but a critical hit on a track - or the loss of a leg containing a track - reduces the Track MP by half for a humanoid chassis (or by a quarter for quad chassis designs)..."
(Total Warfare, pg. 143)

That's right - the official BattleTech rules allow for 'Mechs that have Heavy Gear style SMS! Posted Image Posted Image

#12034 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 12:52 PM

View PostOdanan, on 08 February 2016 - 11:19 AM, said:

I must say, those MGs don't help your design in anything...

;MGs, massively overlooked in TT. Especially in a CQB mech as long as they are torso mounted, they are very useful. 4 dmg for no heat.

#12035 Metus regem

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 12:59 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 08 February 2016 - 12:52 PM, said:

;MGs, massively overlooked in TT. Especially in a CQB mech as long as they are torso mounted, they are very useful. 4 dmg for no heat.


It's why I love the Piranha.... Give it DGS, and watch it murder everything...

#12036 Odanan

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 04:56 PM

View PostOdanan, on 08 February 2016 - 11:19 AM, said:

I must say, those MGs don't help your design in anything...

1 ton of MG ammo, guys. That's 200 "rounds", meaning 100 turns shooting with the 2 MGs. This is more dangerous to self (ammo explosion!) than to the enemy.

Seriously, I prefer to bring a mech with NO WEAPONS to the table (and use only melee) than a mech armed with 2 Machineguns.

If you are going to mount MGs, put 20 with HALF ton of ammo. And I doubt you will get 10 turns at 3 hex range to fire all rounds.

#12037 Strum Wealh

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 07:57 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 08 February 2016 - 06:21 AM, said:

Am working to design "Cuddles the Solaris 7 Kodiak".

Am wondering if retractable blades are worth their weight (used for "pop the claw falcon punches mostly" for thru armor crits) and if they are compatible with TSM. (Or pointless with TSM tbh). Normally I would look up the rules (don't have the CGL battletech compendium, Total War or TacOps) but Google is going insane with malware warnings on Battletechs official site, and of course, Solaris7 is apparently no more.

Considered using Hatchet rules, but 2 becomes kinda redundant (though 40 pt chop chop with 1 in 6 chance for headshot?) and the Kodiak just begs for claw symmetry. Actual Mech Claws replace the hands, so they don't work....

Sigh.

So, as it happens, there already exists a 'Mech that does what it seems like you're looking to do. Posted Image

"The primary configuration appealed to the KungsArmé’s love of physical combat by mounting a three-pronged claw shaped Retractable Blade over a Plasma Cannon, supported by an ER PPC and ER Medium Laser in its left arm."

Posted Image

So, "Cuddles" might have two such three-pronged Retractable Blades as its "claws", backed up by TSM? Posted Image

#12038 Metus regem

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 08:14 AM

View PostOdanan, on 08 February 2016 - 04:56 PM, said:

1 ton of MG ammo, guys. That's 200 "rounds", meaning 100 turns shooting with the 2 MGs. This is more dangerous to self (ammo explosion!) than to the enemy.

Seriously, I prefer to bring a mech with NO WEAPONS to the table (and use only melee) than a mech armed with 2 Machineguns.

If you are going to mount MGs, put 20 with HALF ton of ammo. And I doubt you will get 10 turns at 3 hex range to fire all rounds.



Like I say Odanan, there is not one more lethal non nuclear explosive in the battle tech universe per ton than MG ammo...


That being said, I've used 20 ton mechs, packing nothing but MG ammo, with 5 tons of MG ammo strapped across the arms ST's and CT with big fusion engines+MASC as cruise missiles in campaign games.. got to love those rules for big explosions damaging things around you.

#12039 Odanan

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 09:22 AM

View PostMetus regem, on 09 February 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:



Like I say Odanan, there is not one more lethal non nuclear explosive in the battle tech universe per ton than MG ammo...


That being said, I've used 20 ton mechs, packing nothing but MG ammo, with 5 tons of MG ammo strapped across the arms ST's and CT with big fusion engines+MASC as cruise missiles in campaign games.. got to love those rules for big explosions damaging things around you.

Too expensive for a Kamikaze mech (why not using a VTOL or Hovercraft instead?), but at least it will put that MG ammo in good use.

#12040 Strum Wealh

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 09:30 AM

View PostOdanan, on 08 February 2016 - 04:56 PM, said:

1 ton of MG ammo, guys. That's 200 "rounds", meaning 100 turns shooting with the 2 MGs. This is more dangerous to self (ammo explosion!) than to the enemy.

Seriously, I prefer to bring a mech with NO WEAPONS to the table (and use only melee) than a mech armed with 2 Machineguns.

If you are going to mount MGs, put 20 with HALF ton of ammo. And I doubt you will get 10 turns at 3 hex range to fire all rounds.

MGs can be useful without resorting to power-gaming munchkinry - like all weapons, they have their niche, and I put a couple of them on my Misericorde to fill that niche. ;)

That being said, sacrificing half of the MG ammo & half-a-ton of armor to mount two more MGs (one in each side-torso) is a notion I would entertain as being a relatively-common refit (much like replacing the LRM launchers with SRM launchers).





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