20517 replies to this topic

[Requiemking]

Brain Cancer, on 20 July 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

Tournament rules state that any unit visible to anyone else can have it's stats examined by any player (friendly or not) at any time.

If that isn't sharing target data, what is?

Yes and no. Much like with the whole Artillery issue, they never actually explained how this was done. It could have been done through a computer network, but then thats basically C3. Or, it could have been that the ally Mechwarrior was reading the target data off of his display to you via a two-way radio, much like in-game VOIP.

[SMDMadCow]

Requiemking, on 20 July 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

Yes and no. Much like with the whole Artillery issue, they never actually explained how this was done. It could have been done through a computer network, but then thats basically C3. Or, it could have been that the ally Mechwarrior was reading the target data off of his display to you via a two-way radio, much like in-game VOIP.

Or it was done to make sure your opponent wasn't screwing you over by not marking damage, crits, etc.

[Requiemking]

SMDMadCow, on 20 July 2017 - 11:07 AM, said:

Or it was done to make sure your opponent wasn't screwing you over by not marking damage, crits, etc.

Yes, that is the "Why", but the "How" was never explained, which tends to leave a lot of confusion. For example, if it is done via two-way radio, in theory you could negate it via jamming.

[SMDMadCow]

Requiemking, on 20 July 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

Yes, that is the "Why", but the "How" was never explained, which tends to leave a lot of confusion. For example, if it is done via two-way radio, in theory you could negate it via jamming.

No because it's not an in-game mechanic that can be messed with. How doesn't need to be explained because you can't do anything about it, it's there for checking the other player(s).

We effectively have C3 in MWO, so if they added it it would most likely be improved sensors, faster info, longer lock times, etc.

Edited by SMDMadCow, 20 July 2017 - 11:22 AM.

[Requiemking]

SMDMadCow, on 20 July 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

No because it's not an in-game mechanic that can be messed with. How doesn't need to be explained because you can't do anything about it, it's there for checking the other player(s).

We effectively have C3 in MWO, so if they added it it would most likely be improved sensors, faster info, longer lock times, etc.

The "How" may not affect TT, but it affects games like MWO. Despite what people think, Target Sharing is an incredibly powerful tool that affects multiple parts of combat. Too powerful to simply be given to players for free. Hence why C3 should be required to get it.

[Metus regem]

Requiemking, on 20 July 2017 - 11:34 AM, said:

The "How" may not affect TT, but it affects games like MWO. Despite what people think, Target Sharing is an incredibly powerful tool that affects multiple parts of combat. Too powerful to simply be given to players for free. Hence why C3 should be required to get it.

The Target sharing info would be drastically less powerful in MWO if we didn't have pixle perfect accuracy and convergence...

Just stop and think about it, if we had a random hit location, shot deviation or a 'cone of fire' we couldn't focus on a damage component, that would strip a lot of the problems from MWO when it comes to TTK.

[Requiemking]

Metus regem, on 20 July 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

The Target sharing info would be drastically less powerful in MWO if we didn't have pixle perfect accuracy and convergence...

Just stop and think about it, if we had a random hit location, shot deviation or a 'cone of fire' we couldn't focus on a damage component, that would strip a lot of the problems from MWO when it comes to TTK.

The problem isn't just in shooting. For example, if your running a spotter or a backstabber, with Target Sharing as it is, the moment someone manages to get Target lock, it is common occurrence for the enemy team to drop what their doing and chase you to the ends of the earth. On the opposite end of the scale, Target sharing also makes being a spotter way too easy if the enemy team doesn't notice you.

[Brain Cancer]

True "C3" in TT terms is infinitely superior to what we get in MWO.

I could be at 600m, you would be at 6m and I could fire as accurately from 600m as you would at nose-picking range. That's how real C3 functions- it gives you accuracy equal to the best firing location, and in MWO terms it would have to adjust velocity to match (not an easy task for PGI, as that would mean things like missiles with C3 data might have to go 3-4 times faster to reach a target C3 makes "200m" away when you're actually at 800m).

Further, what we get for free? It's the same stuff we get in TT. The paperdoll data, location, and the option to spot (old grognard TT players may not realize it, but you can spot now and still do everything else) for indirect.

[SuperFunkTron]

Metus regem, on 20 July 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

The Target sharing info would be drastically less powerful in MWO if we didn't have pixle perfect accuracy and convergence...

Just stop and think about it, if we had a random hit location, shot deviation or a 'cone of fire' we couldn't focus on a damage component, that would strip a lot of the problems from MWO when it comes to TTK.

On the topic of convergence, I always thought it would be interesting if only the arm mounted weapons had any convergence and that all torso mounted weapons essentially shot straight forward without converging, thus spreading their hit locations if all fired at once. It'd be a huge deterrent to alpha striking unless the idea was to just throw as much damage as possible or if someone was extremely close. The downside is that it would require extra reticles to shower where torso mounted weapons would actually hit in relation to a central point. It'd be a lot messier unfortunately and require thinking so you could match up which weapons are in which group, and would also lead to mechs looking like they are drunk as they rotate and swivel their torso to make aim each of the torso weapons separately.

It'd be a hell of a concept to test out and would also be a crazy way to help decrease the crazy pinpoint damage we currently have.

[Requiemking]

Brain Cancer, on 20 July 2017 - 12:43 PM, said:

True "C3" in TT terms is infinitely superior to what we get in MWO.

I could be at 600m, you would be at 6m and I could fire as accurately from 600m as you would at nose-picking range. That's how real C3 functions- it gives you accuracy equal to the best firing location, and in MWO terms it would have to adjust velocity to match (not an easy task for PGI, as that would mean things like missiles with C3 data might have to go 3-4 times faster to reach a target C3 makes "200m" away when you're actually at 800m).

Further, what we get for free? It's the same stuff we get in TT. The paperdoll data, location, and the option to spot (old grognard TT players may not realize it, but you can spot now and still do everything else) for indirect.

Yes, but as I stated earlier, the "How" becomes critically important. Since TT was vague with how this stuff is accomplished, it causes problems for games like MWO. For example, to quote Sarna's article on the C3 network:

Quote

C3 Network is a network consisting of either a C3 Command Unit and up to three C3 Slave Units or six C3i units. Basically a special tight-beam communications network, they are used to share targeting data between 'Mechs and Combat Vehicles. The original C3 Networks were introduced in 3050 by the Draconis Combine.
The C3 Networks that exist today are geared towards the smallest level of tactical command; this means that each 'Mech in a Lance (or a ComGuard Level I for C3i) can share targeting data. There have been efforts to expand this targeting coordination to the Company level by using a 'Mech with a pair of C3 Command Units, like the Draconis Combine's Tai-sho.^[3]
A C3 Network of C3 Command units and C3 Slave units cannot share targeting data with units using a C3i system.

Going by this description, what we have in MWO is basically a tonnageless, critless, cost-free C3i module installed into every single mech in game. In game rules for TT are often ignored in MWO in exchange for how the weapon is described. For example, most of the "long range" weapons in TT had a min range, but in MWO that is only true for PPCs, LRMs, and ATMs.

EDIT: cleaned up a bunch of coding nonsense.

Edited by Requiemking, 20 July 2017 - 01:08 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

Going by this description, what we have in MWO is basically a tonnageless, critless, cost-free C3i module installed into every single mech in game

Or you could actually read the rulebook and realize it's nothing even close.to what you think it is. C3i is just a decentralized version of standard C3, and neither C3 nor C3i is required for anything MWO does for free.

That PGI is utterly capricious about minimum ranges is another subject entirely, much like they fundamentally ignore the entire overheat system. Neither has much to do with adding new robots, though.

[Karl Streiger]

Well well well - first you need to realize in which environment the C3 system was introduced.
You have some "all knowing" players and without double blind no fog-of-war and even with double blind you are again the all knowing player. So if guy one spots a target on map sheet 1 - although beeing in cover of ECM you know that and can react. Although in real life that guy would not be able to share this informations.

now we are in MWO - the dortio was imho a communication tool - like calling a enemy mech. Same could have been the command wheel function - (crosshair on target, and "spot") - a voice and text (not chat) information about movement. (the minmap get a static (non moving marker)

Instead now that information is shared on minimap and on your hud. The option to link your LRM to the dorito was a cheap method and caused a lot of issues - (how ECM was implemented, radar derp...)

So think about the system. No C3 should not make weapon usage more precise - this is plain stupid and only necessary in TT because of the game.
But what about this - TT played 4 vs 4 - each player in TT sits in a cabine he does not see the other mechs of other players - so a perfect double blind.
You have only 10seconds per turn to evaluate information available -

so without C3.. you spot a target - you "scan" the target (Advanced Rule from Maximum Tech afaik - you don't get the sheet you need to ask specific informations )the game master gives you instantly the sheet of the enemy) now you need to communicate with your mates. How much information are you able to share in the remaining time?
With C3 - the game master give you and all your comrades the information instantly. They see all the sensor data (damage; weapons etc. as soon as you scanned the target)
This is some some advantage isn't it?

So what about MWO: what if the C3 is indeed what we have now - dynamic moving targets on the map - dorito and shared sensor data - LRM spotting happens automatically (not lore but a nice addition)

Without C3 you have you static blips and text infomation - nothing specific.
Spotting would need you to "lock" on target and hit a button to send to a LRM mech - this can now take your information and fire his LRMs.
Otherwise you would need tag or NARC

[Ovion]

Everything about that sounds awful.
Literally asking the GM to move a model, or explain 1 thing would take far longer than 10 seconds.

And in terms of playing a MWO, this would be bad too - people don't lock targets even for their own benefit as it is, if you make it so they need to actively choose to send locks to LRM mechs would mean they won't get lock support from the team.
Ever.
No one is going to do that in the middle of combat.

In TT, you get basic info about your targets, and your computers will be able to share that info (unless in ECM)
C3 improves your ability to hit based on allies positions.

It's effectively a TC so long as there's another player with it in terms of MWO.

[Karl Streiger]

Ovion, on 21 July 2017 - 04:25 AM, said:

Everything about that sounds awful.
Literally asking the GM to move a model, or explain 1 thing would take far longer than 10 seconds.

And in terms of playing a MWO, this would be bad too - people don't lock targets even for their own benefit as it is, if you make it so they need to actively choose to send locks to LRM mechs would mean they won't get lock support from the team.
Ever.
No one is going to do that in the middle of combat.

In TT, you get basic info about your targets, and your computers will be able to share that info (unless in ECM)
C3 improves your ability to hit based on allies positions.

It's effectively a TC so long as there's another player with it in terms of MWO.

Of course it sounds awful
but thats the reason (imho) why C3 works as a highly improved targeting computer - target sharing would not make any sense.

and about the lock for LRMs - thats called spotting .... and you could fire your TAG or do it the hard way, with bearing, map and a compass
(although with a good topographic map or some preparations & drawing skill + binocular you can call very accurate fire

Edited by Karl Streiger, 21 July 2017 - 04:34 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

LRMs in terms of TT aren't very smart, but they do have a basic guidance system. The launcher loads target data to each missile before firing and will attempt to update in flight (unless "dumbfired", in which case it's just firing at X point and done), and the missile's tracking system is robust enough to keep it going through the sea of ECM that is a Battletech battlefield (even without stuff like Guardian ECM, there's a flood of such countermeasures blanketing most combats). It doesn't have to even be the firer's targeting system, as long as someone can feed it data (but the data lag is the "spotting penalty" to hit for IDF).

Artemis is a system that allows in-flight updates to be tightbeamed to the launched salvo while it "paints" the target, which is why it only works on direct fire. NARC or semi-guided get their updates from tracking a pod signal or TAG data, respectively.

[-Skyrider-]

Awhile back when the clan heroes 2 were announced, russ mentioned that the clan omnimechs would be getting their updated configurations with the timeline and new tech. I have compiled a list of these new configurations that would provide new hard points for these existing mechs.

Mist Lynx:
F: LA- 4 energy, RT- ecm, RA- 4 energy
G: LA- 4 ballistic 1 energy, LL- 1 energy, RL- 1 energy, RA- 4 ballistic 1 energy (leg hard points could be altered)

Arctic cheetah:
E: LA- 3 ballistic, LT- 2 energy, RT- 1 energy, RA- 3 ballistic

Adder:
E: LA- 1 missile, LT- 2 energy, CT- 1 energy, RT- 2 energy, RA- 1 missile

Viper:
F: LA- 4 ballistic, LT- 1 energy, CT- 1 energy, RT- 1 energy, RA- 4 ballistic
I: LA- 1 energy 1 missile, LT- ams, RT- 1 energy, RA- 1 energy

Shadow cat:
C: LA- 1 energy 1 missile, LT- 1 energy, RT- 1 missile, RA- 1 energy 1 missile

Huntsman:
H: LA- 3 energy, LL- ecm, RA- 4 energy

Stormcrow:
E: LA- 1 energy 1 missile, LT- 2 energy, RT- 2 energy, RA- 1 energy 1 missile

Maddog:
D: LA- 2 energy, LT- 1 missile, CT- 2 energy, RT- 1 missile, RA- 2 energy
H: LA- 3 energy, LT- 1 missile, RT- 1 missile, RA- 1 energy

Ebon jaguar:
D: LA- 1 ballistic, LT- 1 energy, RT- 2 energy, RA-1 ballistic

Hellbringer:
H: LA- 1 energy, LT- 4 energy 1 missile, RT- 1 ballistic, RA- 1 energy

Linebacker:
H: LA- 1 energy, LT- 1 energy 3 jumpjets, CT- 1 energy, RT- 1 energy 3 jumpjets, RA- 1 energy

Summoner:
G: LA- 1 energy, LT- 3 missile, CT- 1 energy, RT- 3 missile, RA- 1 energy

Night Gyr:
E: LA- 3 energy, LT- 1 missile, HD- 1 missile, CT- 2 energy, RA- 3 energy
H: LA- 1 ballistic, LT- 1 energy, HD- 1 energy, RT- ecm, RA- 1 ballistic

Gargoyle:
E: LA- 2 energy, LT- 2 energy 1 missile, RT- 2 energy, RA- 1 missile

Warhawk:
D: LA- 1 missile, CT- 1 energy, RT- 2 energy, RA- 1 ballistic
F: LA- 1 energy 1 missile, CT- 1 missile, RT- 1 ballistic, RA- 1 energy
H: LA- 2 energy, RA- 2 energy 1 missile

Executioner:
E: LA- 2 missile, RT- 3 energy, RA- 2 energy

Direwolf:
C: LA- 1 energy 1 missile, LT- 3 energy 1 jumpjet, HD- 1 missile, CT- ecm 1 jumpjet, RT- 1 energy 1 jumpjet,
RA- 1 energy 1 missile


*note some of the mechs do have machine gun arrays or B-pods, but those can be replaced by armor or heatsinks

Edited by -Skyrider-, 21 July 2017 - 01:14 PM.

[Odanan]

-Skyrider-, on 21 July 2017 - 12:43 PM, said:

Awhile back when the clan heroes 2 were announced, russ mentioned that the clan omnimechs would be getting their updated configurations with the timeline and new tech. I have compiled a list of these new configurations that would provide new hard points for these existing mechs.

Mist Lynx:
F: LA- 4 energy, RT- ecm, RA- 4 energy
G: LA- 4 ballistic 1 energy, LL- 1 energy, RL- 1 energy, RA- 4 ballistic 1 energy (leg hard points could be altered)

Arctic cheetah:
E: LA- 3 ballistic, LT- 2 energy, RT- 1 energy, RA- 3 ballistic

Adder:
E: LA- 1 missile, LT- 2 energy, CT- 1 energy, RT- 2 energy, RA- 1 missile

Viper:
F: LA- 4 ballistic, LT- 1 energy, CT- 1 energy, RT- 1 energy, RA- 4 ballistic
I: LA- 1 energy 1 missile, LT- ams, RT- 1 energy, RA- 1 energy

Shadow cat:
C: LA- 1 energy 1 missile, LT- 1 energy, RT- 1 missile, RA- 1 energy 1 missile

Huntsman:
H: LA- 3 energy, LL- ecm, RA- 4 energy

Stormcrow:
E: LA- 1 energy 1 missile, LT- 2 energy, RT- 2 energy, RA- 1 energy 1 missile

Maddog:
D: LA- 2 energy, LT- 1 missile, CT- 2 energy, RT- 1 missile, RA- 2 energy
H: LA- 3 energy, LT- 1 missile, RT- 1 missile, RA- 1 energy

Ebon jaguar:
D: LA- 1 ballistic, LT- 1 energy, RT- 2 energy, RA-1 ballistic

Hellbringer:
H: LA- 1 energy, LT- 4 energy 1 missile, RT- 1 ballistic, RA- 1 energy

Linebacker:
H: LA- 1 energy, LT- 1 energy 3 jumpjets, CT- 1 energy, RT- 1 energy 3 jumpjets, RA- 1 energy

Summoner:
G: LA- 1 energy, LT- 3 missile, CT- 1 energy, RT- 3 missile, RA- 1 energy

Night Gyr:
E: LA- 3 energy, LT- 1 missile, HD- 1 missile, CT- 2 energy, RA- 3 energy
H: LA- 1 ballistic, LT- 1 energy, HD- 1 energy, RT- ecm, RA- 1 ballistic

Gargoyle:
E: LA- 2 energy, LT- 2 energy 1 missile, RT- 2 energy, RA- 1 missile

Warhawk:
D: LA- 1 missile, CT- 1 energy, RT- 2 energy, RA- 1 ballistic
F: LA- 1 energy 1 missile, CT- 1 missile, RT- 1 ballistic, RA- 1 energy
H: LA- 2 energy, RA- 2 energy 1 missile

Executioner:
E: LA- 2 missile, RT- 3 energy, RA- 2 energy

Direwolf:
C: LA- 1 energy 1 missile, LT- 3 energy 1 jumpjet, HD- 1 missile, CT- ecm 1 jumpjet, RT- 1 energy 1 jumpjet,
RA- 1 energy 1 missile


*note some of the mechs do have machine gun arrays or B-pods, but those can be replaced by armor or heatsinks

Those that will be released in August are:
• Arctic Cheetah ACH-E
• Mist Lynx MLX-G
• Ice Ferret IFR-P
• Shadow Cat SHC-H
• Mad Dog MDD-H
• Ebon Jaguar EBJ-D
• Hellbringer HBR-P
• Gargoyle GAR-E
• Executioner EXE-Q

There is this very complete sheet with all possible variants and their hardpoints.

[SuperFunkTron]

Odanan, on 21 July 2017 - 01:27 PM, said:

Those that will be released in August are:
• Arctic Cheetah ACH-E
• Mist Lynx MLX-G
• Ice Ferret IFR-P
• Shadow Cat SHC-H
• Mad Dog MDD-H
• Ebon Jaguar EBJ-D
• Hellbringer HBR-P
• Gargoyle GAR-E
• Executioner EXE-Q

There is this very complete sheet with all possible variants and their hardpoints.

I think executioner-Q is a typo. If you look at the official page, they list the E variant lower when comparing it to the hero mech. After checking the E variant on Mech Factory, it seems they've added hardpoints to the LT (Mech Factory shows no weapons/ hardpoints on the LT) in order to making it give something comparable to the hero variant.

https://mwomercs.com...hero-mechs/#exe

Edited by SuperFunkTron, 22 July 2017 - 10:19 AM.

[jjm1]

Flea
Fafnir
Lobo
Rifleman IIC

<unwarranted-confidence> I'll take a Purifier. </unwarranted-confidence>

[Requiemking]

Well, now that we have RACs, I have this strange desire to mimic the Heavy from TF2. Anyone know of any humanoid IS Assault mechs with at least 2 ballistics in the arms? Preferably one with decent defensive quirks.