20517 replies to this topic

[Jack Gallows]

Ok, this is pretty simple. Current I.S. mech lab allows for more customization then is canonically possible for a Battlemech, but it is so that we can have an enjoyable game. That is NOT to say you couldn't have one otherwise, it's just how PGI has decided to go. IS mechs can technically mod anything in canon, but moving anything or upgrading anything required MONTHS of time and had the possibility of not working due to a 'mechs structure not being able to handle it. Ergo why we had mass produced variants. Omni-mechs have essentially the same thing for core design parts, but weapons bay that were slid in and slide out to make weapon changes on the fly basically.

This means, very simply, that they will devise something to set Omni-mechs apart from standard mechs. My thoughts are that their hardpoints will not be hard coded to a weapon type. Example, Clan Omni-Mech A has 3 hardpoints in it's arms, and 2 per R/L Torso. Inner Sphere Battlemech A has the same, but the difference is that Clan Omni-Mech can place any combo of weapons in those hardpoints where IS Mech cannot. He's got 3 Ballistics in the arms and 2 Lasers in the torsos, meaning he's more restricted then an Omni while still being able to be modded like it's currently able.

As for locking engines/etc, if they do this (and I'm not really sure they will, but there's gotta be something to make variants unique maybe,) then you'll probably see as discussed earlier with the ability to unlock certain things. Honestly if Clanners don't like this idea, I'm really not overly worried about it. Lots of possibility for cheese, but then that's exactly what the Clans are. They brought cheese to TT, they'll bring cheese to MW:O unless PGI alters how they work. And that...is a scary idea since the backlash from Clanners will be epic if their shiny toys get messed with.

Wtb Cyclops or Hatamoto-Chi, though a Zeus is fine too. (Cyclops for second ECM Assault, go!)

HAV0C, on 02 February 2013 - 02:49 AM, said:

I personally would like to see a 'stock only' game mode one day. Where each team gets to select their mech and you get the default loadout of the mechs with no modifications done. The only thing you'd be able to tweak would perhaps be Moduals, past that you run it as it came from the factory. I think it'd really let people test their mettle, as it's not who brings the best build as much as who can elevate their abilities in a stock 'mech and use what they have at their disposal. Your LRM launchers only have two tons of ammo? Well I guess that means you better play smart and not waste your ammo then huh? That UAC 5 only has 25 rounds? Better make damn sure you hit with all 25 of them then!

Just my thoughts on that end.

<S> See y'all dirtside.

-Colonel Andrew "Havoc" Davis
Death's Hand Brigade Mercenaries

Well, they've talked about letting us have private matches, which is one more way we might be able to actually have stock battles or tournaments. Having an official game mode would be pretty awesome, even making it a part of a future Solaris section of the game would be neat too. Things change SOOO quickly when you can't mod a 'mech (for example, the Jenner F would see more play possibly then the D due to armor values /etc.)

I'll say it again though.....


Wtb Cyclops or Hatamoto-Chi, though a Zeus is fine too. (Cyclops for second ECM Assault, go!)

Edited by Jack Gallows, 02 February 2013 - 05:26 AM.

[Necro]

Omni-Mech - What you can't change in Canon:
Engine
Minimum Heatsinks
Hard installed Weapons
Hard installed Equiment
Armor

For example, we take the Warhawk-Base:
340 XL-Engine
13.5 Ferro-Fibrous Armor
20 Double Heatsinks
Targeting Computer

That ist what you cant change or modifie for a canon Warhawk-configuration.


The same vor IS-Omni Mechs like the Avatar, the same thing, except, that this Mech will ALWAYS have 2 Medium Laser in its center torso.

For Hardpoints... Same way we have now, but except onle pure Hardpoints, they should habe at least some Omni-hardpoints.
Warhawk Prime:
LA: 2 ErPPC
RA: 2 ErPPC
LT: 1 LRM10

So hardpoint could be for exampe:
LA: 1 Energie, 1 Omni
RA: 1 Energie, 1 Omni
LT: 1 Missle

Edited by Necro, 02 February 2013 - 07:20 AM.

[MWHawke]

HAV0C, on 02 February 2013 - 02:49 AM, said:

Like every other 'mechwarrior game before it, they're taking their own liberties to the 'mechlab in an effort to make the game fun and entertaining.

Just because you could do it in the previous 'mechwarrior titles, doesn't mean you could do it in the original battletech boardgame (Or Mechwarrior RPG supplement) that the video games are drawn from. Does that mean we stay slaves to the tabletop? No, we can't and shouldn't in my view.

But that doesn't mean we can't take the good parts of the tabletop design ideas and implement/improve them.

I wonder how many 'power' builds such as the 6x SRM 6 splattercat catapult we would see if it cost both Cbills and TIME to swap weapons out? You want that Splatterpult 'mech? Ok, it'll cost you 25,000 Cbills per SRM 6 launcher, another Million to strip the LRM 20's out of the arms and have our engineers get the 18 SRM tubes to fit in that arm space correctly so that the ammo feeds properly from wherever it's stored (In the leg?? REALLY?) to the launcher, and four weeks to complete the modification. Oh, for an extra million Cbills we could get it finished in three weeks though if you're lucky. What's that? You want to swap the engine to an XL now too?? Oh well let me get my abacus to calculate what that'll cost ya, and it'll be another five to six weeks at least before it's completed and ready to go also...

Yea,.. puts a whole new spin on things doesn't it? I'm not advocating the above be implemented by the way, just saying that there needs to be an appreciation for 'instant gratification' in the 'mechlab as we have it.

I personally would like to see a 'stock only' game mode one day. Where each team gets to select their mech and you get the default loadout of the mechs with no modifications done. The only thing you'd be able to tweak would perhaps be Moduals, past that you run it as it came from the factory. I think it'd really let people test their mettle, as it's not who brings the best build as much as who can elevate their abilities in a stock 'mech and use what they have at their disposal. Your LRM launchers only have two tons of ammo? Well I guess that means you better play smart and not waste your ammo then huh? That UAC 5 only has 25 rounds? Better make damn sure you hit with all 25 of them then!

Just my thoughts on that end.

<S> See y'all dirtside.

-Colonel Andrew "Havoc" Davis
Death's Hand Brigade Mercenaries

No matter what, it would not make any sense to limit Omni armor tweaking as that would make absolutely no sense cause IS Mechs can do it. I'd really like to see how they explain that limitation since Clan Techs are still given superior training to IS Techs.

[Odanan]

Thontor, on 02 February 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

difference is.. with omnimechs... is weapons.. with omni mechs you can put any weapon type anywhere on the mech that has a weapon hardpoint.. hypothetically there is no ballistic, energy, or missile hardpoints..

For the frst time I have to disagree with you, Thontor.

Hardpoints are an invention of PGI. In "real life", you can put any weapon in an IS mech, anywhere (as long as weight and critical space requirements are met). Of course this would cost a lot, but i you have the millions... MW2:M was the best game to handle the modification costs so far.

About the clans, each "omni module" is a set of weapons. MWO-wise, each omni variant would have ballistics, energy and missile hardpoints LIKE all IS mechs. There is no such thing as "universal" hardpoints, for God's sake. MW4 did already too much damage.

A elegant solution for the omni mechs would be: you buy the omni mech with the primary variant. If you want the Summoner A, you will need the Summoner Prime + the omni module of the Summoner A (which wouldn't cost much, because it's not the whole mech - it doesn't have engine, gyro, cockpit, etc.). Before mission, you just swap the Summoner Prime for the Summoner A.

MWHawke, on 02 February 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

No matter what, it would not make any sense to limit Omni armor tweaking as that would make absolutely no sense cause IS Mechs can do it. I'd really like to see how they explain that limitation since Clan Techs are still given superior training to IS Techs.

If you change the omni basis, the mech is not omni anymore. It won't be compatible with the other omni modules (losing all advantages of the omni itself). Clan techs are able to do it, sure, but why would they do it?

Edited by Odanan, 02 February 2013 - 09:25 AM.

[Odanan]

Thontor, on 02 February 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

no problem, disagreement makes life interesting

I was speaking more in terms of what I imagine MWO might do with omnimechs,

an omnimech could have a certain number of omni hardpoints in each part of the mech.. any weapon type allowed... you can change the weapons as much as you want.. forever...

but if you want to change the "engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech" you can do that, but if you do, any hardpoint with a weapon installed becomes locked into that weapon type. and any hardpoint without a weapon goes away

this is how I would interpret the following into MWO.
"While customization of these components is theoretically possible in the field, it is avoided as it hard-wires all the 'Mechs components and effectively transforms it from a OmniMech into a standard BattleMech."

I prefer if you buy each "omni module" and it is customized as the IS ones. Unlimited customization was the greatest flaw of MW2 and MW3 - please, not again.

About the locking idea, it is reasonable, but unnecessarily complicated.

[MWHawke]

Odanan, on 02 February 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

If you change the omni basis, the mech is not omni anymore. It won't be compatible with the other omni modules (losing all advantages of the omni itself). Clan techs are able to do it, sure, but why would they do it?

I agree about the changing the Omni basis but I'm just thinking it would be ridiculous that an IS Tech could do something that the Clan Techs could/would not do. I mean, the Clan Techs are also interested for the Clans to win in their battles.

[MWHawke]

Thontor, on 02 February 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

I agree.. and I think my Idea would allow the Clans to do anything the IS can do.. but if they do they lose the one thing they can do but the IS cannot.. put any weapon type anywhere

Honestly, I would not mind losing that ability with the technology the Clans have. I would put the weapon types where I want then change the armor and internals. That would still give me a superb advantage against IS Mechs, eg. ballistics in the torso where they are most protected so I can fit an Ultra AC 20 in it and energy/missile in the arms and/or torsos. Would still be a huge advantage.

[Fenix0742]

It's an old bug, but Omni hardpoints seems to be a thing:

That being said, I think there will be some Omnimechs that have "standard" hardpoints, such as LRM boxes on the MadCat. We'll just have to wait and see.

[MWHawke]

Thontor, on 02 February 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

as it should be

Yeah, but how then would the developers stop everyone from jumping onto the Clan Wagon?

[Odanan]

Jesus... just to think of Ultra AC/20s and SSRM6s...

There is no way to balance clan weapons with the IS ones (well, MW4 tried, but they screwed all weapons of the game in the process). So they need to:

- either make Clan vs. Clan and IS vs. IS battles only;
- either make one team Clan and the other IS, but giving a huge advantage to IS. (in number of players or tonnage).

It makes no sense in the timeline (hello, 3050!), but I prefer the first alternative.

[Odanan]

Fenix0742, on 02 February 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

It's an old bug, but Omni hardpoints seems to be a thing:

That being said, I think there will be some Omnimechs that have "standard" hardpoints, such as LRM boxes on the MadCat. We'll just have to wait and see.

Ohh no...

[Norris J Packard]

Odanan, on 02 February 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

Ohh no...

You can thank me later.

[Phoenix Branson]

Odanan, on 02 February 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

Jesus... just to think of Ultra AC/20s and SSRM6s...

There is no way to balance clan weapons with the IS ones (well, MW4 tried, but they screwed all weapons of the game in the process). So they need to:

- either make Clan vs. Clan and IS vs. IS battles only;
- either make one team Clan and the other IS, but giving a huge advantage to IS. (in number of players or tonnage).

It makes no sense in the timeline (hello, 3050!), but I prefer the first alternative.

I think PGI will simply balance Inner Sphere vs. Clan with Matchmaking, such as 12 IS mechs vs. 8 Clan mechs.
Only time will tell...

Edited by Maverick01, 02 February 2013 - 05:59 PM.

[MWHawke]

Maverick01, on 02 February 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

I think PGI will simply balance Inner Sphere vs. Clan with Matchmaking, such as 12 IS mechs vs. 8 Clan mechs.
Only time will tell...

Hopefully. Battle Value and ELO would be my best guess for this unless someone has a better way.

*Fingers crossed*

[Lonestar1771]

MWHawke, on 02 February 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

Hopefully. Battle Value and ELO would be my best guess for this unless someone has a better way.

*Fingers crossed*

Maybe those who use Clan tech will be given a handicap to their ELO score? Such that a starting IS player has 500 ELO VS. a starting Clanner has an ELO score of 700-800. Dunno if that would work since I don't really understand the mechanics of the ELO system.

[Anyone00]

Wild idea for Clan Omnimechs, really only works if full out playing as a Clanner: Onmimechs have locked engine, internal structure and, armor type and amount; but they have weapon hard points just like IS mechs (maybe with an a universal "omni-point" or two) and can change the amount but not type of heat sinks. The big difference is they can have several saved and ready load outs that a player has about five seconds on the map screen to choose from.

Edited by Anyone00, 02 February 2013 - 10:48 PM.

[nksharp]

Maverick01, on 02 February 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

I think PGI will simply balance Inner Sphere vs. Clan with Matchmaking, such as 12 IS mechs vs. 8 Clan mechs.
Only time will tell...

Wonder if we will ever get 12v12

Problem with 8 v 12 is that most likely everyone with the money will go clans while new people probably can't afford that without buying MC. So, if that happens and it is 8 experienced players in superior mechs vs 12 new people it will be a massacre. Even 4 v 12 would probably not change much I would imagine with the right people.

[Ens]

still waiting for number 20 :| Zeus

Edited by Ens, 03 February 2013 - 05:48 AM.

[Odanan]

Ens, on 03 February 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

still waiting for number 20 :| Zeus

Or the Banshee!

[Jack Gallows]

Limiting match sizes sounds like a HORRIBLE idea for two reasons, the first being that matchmaking would have to be altered to set different size teams up if one is using Clan (making matches take longer to sync up)...but the issue there is that many I.S. players will start mixing Clan tech in throwing off the system, the second is that while the books put numerically superior forces of IS against technology superior but fewer Clan 'mechs, the reality is that if you did that here I.S. is going to wipe the floor with Clanners. The tech might be better, but good pilots in I.S. mechs are still going to royally own you if it turns out to be a numbers game, not to mention it'd be a balancing nightmare to start tweaking the game around that match size over the traditional.

Also, from a player perspective I would not feel right restricting how many Clan players can play together, people like playing with their friends and dropping that number per match increases how many people have to sit out per rotation, etc. What would be probably easier to do would be to institute a kind of force number like battle value that means the Clan tech is higher valued therefor meaning the forces equal out in terms of firepower/etc per 'mech. Or something like, if drop weights are added, a Nova is qued up as 20 tons heavier then it really is due to the fact it's about that much (guestimating,) more powerful per ton then an I.S. equivalent.

Now, to be a bit more on topic (technically previous isn't off topic but it's more than stretching the boundaries I think,) what my variant selections for the 3 'mechs I think the next Assault is going to be. (Listed in order from what I think is most likely.)

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Cyclops

CP-10-Z - Base variant, AC/20, LRM10, SRM4, 2 Medium Lasers

CP-10-Q - The Q variant of the Cyclops attempts to keep enemies at range by removing the Autocannon/20 and replacing it with an additional LRM-10 and seven more tons of armor, making it very well protected. (This is taken right from Sarna.)

CP-11-B - This version of the Cyclops carries a second Gauss Rifle, thirteen and a half tons of Ferro-Fibrous armor, and CASE. To make room for this equipment, engineers replaced the engine with a 270 rated model. Though this slows the Cyclops by 25%, the increased weaponry and armor protection compensates for the reduced speed. (This is taken right from Sarna.)

And the big reason I think this 'mech has the best chance of being included as the next Assault, in addition to probably being modded to carry ECM for one variant to relieve the Atlas from being the only one, is that it's begging for a hero 'mech (from sarna,)

Quote

General Ariana Winston, Commanding Officer of the Eridani Light Horse between 3045 to 3060, piloted a modified Cyclops which featured a dual-cockpit for command and coordination purposes. She is perhaps best known for assuming command of the reborn SLDF's Task Force Serpent after Morgan Hasek-Davion's assassination and leading the bloody campaign to destroy Clan Smoke Jaguar on their homeworld of Huntress, though she was killed during the effort.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zeus

ZEU-6S - Base variant, 1 Large Laser, 1 LRM15, 2 Medium Lasers, 1 AC/5

ZEU-6T - Advancements after the 3rd Succession War led to the 6T model which carried as its primary weapon a Parti-Kill PPC. This weapon had the same effective range as the Autocannon/5 and did twice as much damage, but also created a great deal of excess heat (partially mitigated by 2 additional heat sinks). The -6T was otherwise identical to the -6S model. The -6T would be the base for the later -9S and -9T models. (Sarna)

ZEU-9S - The -9S was an upgrade using Star League technology, adding double heat sinks and eleven tons of Ferro-Fibrous armor. It carried as its main weapon an Defiance 1001 ER PPC. This was backed up for long-range combat by a Coventry Star Fire LRM-15 launcher and a Cyclops XII ER Large Laser. For close combat, the -9S carried two Defiance P3M Medium Pulse Lasers. (Sarna)



Unfortunately, kind of like the Cyclops, most of the Zeus variants don't really differ in the hardpoint category. Each one changes some base internals or swaps the AC for a PPC and that's kind of it. PGI will probably offer some unique hardpoints, and that would cure any issues easily, however. For a hero 'mech..probably,

Quote

Zeus Leonidas - The personal 'Mech of Hauptmann-General Leonidas Brannock, commander of the 4th Skye Guards during their assault on Glengarry, the Zeus Leonidas was based on the ZEU-9S. It carried an Artemis IV enhanced LRM-20 and a Gauss Rifle (each with two tons of ammunition) in place of the PPC and LRM-15. The rest of the weapons remained the same. It also carried an extra heat sink, bringing the total to twelve. To make room for this equipment the Leonidas used an XL Engine.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hatamoto-Chi

HTM-27T - Base variant, 2 PPC, 2 SRM6 (woo, Thug!)

HTM-27U - The 27U, also known as the Hatamoto-Hi, is almost identical to the 27T. The differences in the designs come in with the removal of the two SRM-6 launchers and the addition of four Medium Pulse Lasers and an additional heat sink to help with the additional heat burden. (Sarna)

HTM-27W - The 27W, also known as the Hatamoto-Ku, removes both of the SRM-6 launchers and replaces them with an Autocannon/5. The 'Mech has a powerful direct fire capability. (Sarna)

Has more varied kinds of variants then the other two, but it's kind of the odd 'mech out. I personally want to see this or the Cyclops the most (I REALLY want to see the art for this 'mech,) but I think maybe it's job is kind of covered by others. Maybe that doesn't matter, we've got a good spread of Assault 'mechs already, and this one has some really nice variants. As for it's hero 'mech,

Quote

HTM-27T Hatamoto-Chi Daniel - Personally awarded by Coordinator Takashi Kurita to Sorenson’s Sabres commander Daniel Sorenson in the lead-up to the War of 3039, the 'Mech Daniel received was a bridging design between the early field-test HTM-26T and the later production HTM-27T. Dropping two tons of armor and outfitted with a bulkier and less refined Endo-Steel chassis, enough weight was saved to mount a pair of experimental Luthien Armor Works developed LB 10-X AC prototypes in it arms and a pair of Telos SRM-4 launchers in its chest. A ton of reloads for each SRM launcher and four tons of autocannon reloads in its CASE protected side torsos kept the 'Mech in the thick of battle.

And my quick list for first 5 Clan 'mechs announced, assuming they don't change how they've been doing it... (I'd list variants but being Omni, it doesn't matter.)

1. Puma http://www.sarna.net...dder_%28Puma%29
2. Nova http://www.sarna.net...28Black_Hawk%29
3. Stormcrow http://www.sarna.net...ow_%28Ryoken%29 (this and the Nova are going to be soooo broken...)
4. Timber Wolf http://www.sarna.net...f_%28Mad_Cat%29
5. Warhawk http://www.sarna.net..._%28Masakari%29 (This is most likely going to be the Dire Wolf, though)