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Ultimate Mech Discussion Thread

BattleMech Balance

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#20381 lobsterhierarchy

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 09:12 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 24 May 2019 - 06:13 AM, said:

that's assuming either would get 360 rotation. Still no sure who started the (inaccurate) rumor that Urbies had it (not that I'm complaining). Plus Flashman basically is a FatHopper?


I wouldn’t be against a full 360 but I understand maybe a severe pivot angle with poor pitch - like 270-300 degree turn.

Flashman I believe has more armor while the Hopper has jump jets. I think the interesting dynamic it would bring to the table is the Urbies ability to twist damage away coupled with heavier armor and a better pivot angle. The black knight, hopper, Warhammer 6D, and by extent the Thunderbolt SS and TT are same in terms of laser hardpoints but vary on armor, tonnage, and quirks.

#20382 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 09:29 AM

View PostSereglach, on 24 May 2019 - 08:16 AM, said:

Yeah, it's inaccurate, but I think it actually originated in the fact that the Urbie, in lore, had a 360 degree visibility out of the cockpit and could do the whole "arm flip" to shoot behind it (if using those rules). That then turned into "give the urbie 360 degree torso rotation!" . . .

Of course, this part of the original April Fools announcement didn't help matters:
https://stage.mwomer...-on-battlefield

I remember all of the jokes about "Urbie Turrets" eventually turned into "You know, that might actually be a reasonable balancing mechanism..."

and I think the Mektek Urbie (like the MW4 Raven) had 360.. and seems like too many people think MW4 is canon... *sighs* (So I guess we should have Flying Wasps engaging Drop Ships in low orbit....)

#20383 Sereglach

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 09:45 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 24 May 2019 - 09:29 AM, said:

and I think the Mektek Urbie (like the MW4 Raven) had 360.. and seems like too many people think MW4 is canon... *sighs* (So I guess we should have Flying Wasps engaging Drop Ships in low orbit....)

If we can get a Wasp that can virtually fly around like a Spider 5V then I'm all for it! Regardless, I wouldn't be surprised if MW4 Mektek had a fair bit to do with it, as well; but to be fair . . . Mektek did do a lot of good things to help MW4 achieve better balance. It was still FAR from perfect, but at the very least it made a lot more viable builds. Therefore, if we can pull some of the better facets from Mektek to help balance MWO, I'm not against that.

#20384 Sereglach

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 03:16 PM

So . . . tonight we hear about the future of MWO mech packs and the wind-up to MW5. Anyone going to be able to catch the stream and/or take notes?

I'm going to try to catch the steam, but not sure if I'll be able to. If I can I'll try to post some notes here.

EDIT: NEVER-MIND . . . right after I posted this I saw the announcement that the stream has been postponed for a week. Grrr . . . I was really curious to find out the future of MWO and Mech Packs.

Edited by Sereglach, 24 May 2019 - 03:18 PM.


#20385 Shadowomega1

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 03:22 PM

I don't know why they haven't said screw it and make a long winded post stating what is going on. It isn't like the podcast will have much interaction with the audience as say forums/reddit/twitter.

#20386 Sereglach

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 03:34 PM

View PostShadowomega1, on 24 May 2019 - 03:22 PM, said:

I don't know why they haven't said screw it and make a long winded post stating what is going on. It isn't like the podcast will have much interaction with the audience as say forums/reddit/twitter.

Agreed . . . if Bombadil couldn't make it for a podcast then they should take the script of Q&A stuff and turn it into a massive Command Chair post.

#20387 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 04:03 PM

View PostSereglach, on 24 May 2019 - 09:45 AM, said:

If we can get a Wasp that can virtually fly around like a Spider 5V then I'm all for it! Regardless, I wouldn't be surprised if MW4 Mektek had a fair bit to do with it, as well; but to be fair . . . Mektek did do a lot of good things to help MW4 achieve better balance. It was still FAR from perfect, but at the very least it made a lot more viable builds. Therefore, if we can pull some of the better facets from Mektek to help balance MWO, I'm not against that.

I think MekTek started real well, as far as any MW4 based game could. Bu somewhere along the line it seemed like the ideas went south, just before it ended. Kind of like GoTs......

But those first several years were great.

#20388 FupDup

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 04:13 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 24 May 2019 - 04:03 PM, said:

I think MekTek started real well, as far as any MW4 based game could. Bu somewhere along the line it seemed like the ideas went south, just before it ended. Kind of like GoTs......

But those first several years were great.

The Wasp's super JJ thing never actually made it into the game though, so I have a hard time holding it against them.

#20389 Odanan

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 03:50 PM

What's the future of the mech packs? We will soon find out.

#20390 shaytalis

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 03:57 PM

Guys I didn't wanna read the whole thread 'cause it is 1020 pages. Could you tl;dr and tell me what is the Ultimate Mech?

#20391 FupDup

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 04:06 PM

View Postshaytalis, on 31 May 2019 - 03:57 PM, said:

Guys I didn't wanna read the whole thread 'cause it is 1020 pages. Could you tl;dr and tell me what is the Ultimate Mech?

Nuclear-armed Urbie.

#20392 FLE 20

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 04:09 PM

View Postshaytalis, on 31 May 2019 - 03:57 PM, said:

Guys I didn't wanna read the whole thread 'cause it is 1020 pages. Could you tl;dr and tell me what is the Ultimate Mech?

Posted Image

#20393 Odanan

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 04:37 PM

View Postshaytalis, on 31 May 2019 - 03:57 PM, said:

Guys I didn't wanna read the whole thread 'cause it is 1020 pages. Could you tl;dr and tell me what is the Ultimate Mech?

We are still trying to find out. :P

#20394 Odanan

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 05:29 PM

Long story short, they are slowing down the mech releases and will try to pick more meaningful/wanted choices.

I smell IS omni mechs.

#20395 Sereglach

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 06:18 PM

View PostOdanan, on 31 May 2019 - 05:29 PM, said:

Long story short, they are slowing down the mech releases and will try to pick more meaningful/wanted choices.

I smell IS omni mechs.

Anyone taking actual notes? Still haven't been able to tune in, and I don't know if I'll be able to before it ends.

EDIT: Scratch that, apparently it's already over. Started listening to the archive. Listening to it since the only notes I've found are from toxic people screaming it's the end of the world.

Edited by Sereglach, 31 May 2019 - 06:31 PM.


#20396 Sereglach

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 07:59 PM

First major point - Mech Packs: MONTHLY mech packs are ending. However, mech packs will still be coming when they find mechs that they feel are more meaningful and will actually make a return on their investment. The game has 1k+ mech variants, so it's hard to find things to get people excited and actually get a return on the investment. Mechs used to completely return on investment within 3-4 days of announcement . . . now it's normally around a year to truly earn returns.

Personal Opinion: Hopefully this means that they'll still knock out the classics, because they're essentially a must-do after PGI's final and lasting victory for Battletech vs. HG. Major impacting mechs like IS Omnis or mechs introducing new game mechanics or timeline jumps seem feasible choices, as well. Otherwise, they're looking for mechs to actually make PGI money. It isn't surprising that PGI would have issues getting returns on their mech investments when almost half of their development staff is mech related (that's a LOT of expense just to keep 1-a-month pace). Personally, I think this stems from the over-saturation of mechs due to the 3-Variant rule and the extreme negative effects it had on the mech economy. When you've got a handfull of chassis that have enough variants to do just about anything in a weight class, it's bound to produce redundancy issues.

Second Major Point - Future Mech Decisions: On the discussion of future mechs, Russ and co. batted around the idea of using PGI run polls to say, "We think these are good additions to MWO, which one do you want to see next?" In addition, Russ states they've already narrowed down the next mech (noted singular, so don't expect something like an IS Omni bundle), but it won't be seen for June.

Personal Opinion: I'm all for PGI running official polls to find out what the community is interested in. I think it'll be much better than community run polls that A: have personal bias and B: are either ancient and ignored or don't have the reach of an in-launcher news announcement. Also, PGI running the polls means that they've already screened mechs . . . . HOW PGI WOULD MAKE THEM . . . and determined what would be a good addition based on HOW PGI WOULD MAKE IT. That's a big deal, because we can look at the list and see -through PGI's eyes- what they feel MWO needs and how they feel they'll get there.

Third Major Point - Finances and MW5: MWO is ~7-9 years old (8 counting Open Beta, 9 counting Closed Beta). One of the oldest running FTP games out there. FTP games become harder and harder to support, especially as they get older. PGI has a lot riding on the success of MW5 due to MWO being their only major title this whole time. Roles have reversed; and while MWO's success allowed development of MW5, whether MW5 is successful or not will determine the future of MWO development.

Bringing in an anecdote from the beginning, PGI constantly talks to Microsoft and has open channels with them at all times . . . PGI has really brought the Mechwarrior franchise back from the dead, so hopes for the future are reasonably bright. Financial end of PGI/MWO is not even in sight right now . . . PGI is financially viable for the foreseeable future, despite early concerns over "how will funding go without Mech Packs?" Russ sees MWO running for at least 10 years after the "Launch" . . . so at least 3 more solid years.

Regardless, even if MW5 only sells 1 million or so copies it'll be a HUGE hit for the company and for the Mechwarrior IP as a whole (most AAA games expect to sell 10 million+ with thousands of employees, and PGI is about 50). All of the production for MWO has allowed PGI to make a game that's just as big as any AAA title (co-op, modding, procedural missions, 5+ starting locations for sandboxing, long campaign, etc.), so Russ/Microsoft seems to feel it'll be a good success. Success of MW5 also means Microsoft will be throwing more support at PGI for Mechwarrior product.

Personal Opinion: PGI cannot afford MW5 failing. Mechwarrior, as a whole, probably cannot afford MW5 failing. Beginning of the chat put rumors of Mechassault 3 from Microsoft to bed as "literally zero evidence, even from the people making up the articles", and PGI has zero involvement in any such project. Considering Microsoft was talking about bringing MW5 to XBox as an exclusive (much easier with keyboard support, now), I think honestly any Mechassault rumors are actually stemming from the possibility of MW5 being announced for Xbox at E3, not Mechassault 3. Regardless, it sounds like PGI won't consider an engine migration (even though most of the work is already done within MW5) or heavy-duty development for MWO unless MW5 is successful. Honestly, I think full modding support, alone, will make MW5 wildly successful . . . look at Bugthesda's games and how modding saves every last one of them that allows it (sorry, Fallout 76 . . . but still playing modded Skyrim).

Fourth Major Point - FP: Faction Play is committed to. Roadmap from Paul will be followed, but apologized for the rough launch and need for consecutive hot-fixes. However, PGI is 100% committed to FP as long as MWO is alive (used the term "forever"). Minimum 3-6 more months of heavy development just to be at a point where they're "happy" as having met the goals of the roadmap. Regardless, even after that they'll still be developing FP and PGI is "not done. Development will continue month-by-month." Russ hopes by the time they meet the roadmap goals FP will become the quintessential game mode again.

Personal Opinion: From all gaming experience, multiplayer and netcode are the hardest/worst things to deal with. Developing anything having to do with these facets are always miserable to deal with (yet the irony that single player games are struggling in the top tier fields of gaming development vs. the plethora of development for multiplayer games and "games as a service"). While my interest in FP has never been strong (rewards for a "Lone Wolf" have ALWAYS sucked, should mirror Mercs), I can understand PGI's desire to make this mode work for the people who want it. It is, of course, going to take longer than anyone likes.

Fifth Major Point - MWOWC and Mech Con: PGI has completely footed the bill for everything Mech Con related and for the MWOWC. Three years straight, as a studio of like 50 people, has been a great achievement. 100k+ minimum investment just to make the MWOWC on site. They could keep Mech Con going, with costs cut to 1/3, if they can make two major changes. 1: MWOWC cannot be on site and 2: PGI can't foot the bill entirely on themselves (MWOWC Supporter Pack to generate the prize money). Russ and co. see the negativity but emphasizes the positives over the accomplishments of such a tiny company managing to support an event with about 1k showing up; and hoping to keep it up.

Personal opinion: For the love of all that is holy! Get CGL and HBS (who now has Paradox at their back) to help bloody support Mech Con! They get hundreds of thousands of dollars in free advertisement for bloody nothing! Try to get Microsoft to help support this crap! They want e-sports and they want strong IPs . . . this is their frigging IP! Even though I could care less about the event, personally, and only watch the major announcements/segments on Twitch . . . I still understand the importance of having a Mech Con for the Mechwarrior/Battletech IP. PGI should do what they can, and reach out to all the mooches, to help keep Mech Con going.

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On a final note, my only real disappointment from this whole stream is that there was zero talk of balance work. I'm particularly inquisitive of the next mech, and I'm hoping it's one of the remaining core classics. However, sadly, it seems like a lot of desired mechs will only come to MW5 with modding . . . but with some of the art the community already puts out they should still be great (I wonder how easily some could be kit-bashed). Overall, I'm surprised with the positivity that PGI has to move forward with given how much is on the line and how toxic the community has been. Granted, I'm no white knight, and my wallet has been closed since Origins IIC (fix Flamers already, and you'll quickly reopen it), but I still want MWO to succeed and still try to be constructive. Hopefully the Mechwarrior IP has a long and lasting future.

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After typing all of this I found some reddit notes here: https://www.reddit.c...date_with_russ/
. . . beware . . . the feedback there seems overwhelmingly toxic if you read past the notes.

Edited by Sereglach, 31 May 2019 - 08:15 PM.


#20397 Odanan

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Posted 01 June 2019 - 03:21 AM

View PostSereglach, on 31 May 2019 - 07:59 PM, said:

Spoiler

Wow, thanks for these comprehensive notes.

Edited by Odanan, 01 June 2019 - 03:24 AM.


#20398 TheArisen

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 02:40 PM

Well so far the trend on my poll about why mech people do or don't buy mech packs is they only buy the ones that interest them.
https://mwomercs.com...ing-mech-packs/

So instead of which mechs you want, because we've talked at length about which ones we all want, what factors get you interested in buying a mech?

#20399 Sereglach

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 04:09 PM

View PostTheArisen, on 02 June 2019 - 02:40 PM, said:

Well so far the trend on my poll about why mech people do or don't buy mech packs is they only buy the ones that interest them.
https://mwomercs.com...ing-mech-packs/

So instead of which mechs you want, because we've talked at length about which ones we all want, what factors get you interested in buying a mech?

First and foremost: Nostalgia and looks. Is it a chassis that I aesthetically and historically have some connection to? For example, I bought the Firestarter Ember the day it released, and I even waited until around 3AM due to PGI payment service having issues processing purchases. The Firestarter is my baby, first TT mech ever played (thank you, GM, for answering my pyro wishes), and I've always had a soft spot for it. I wish I had screenshot the conversation I had with Russ about the Firestarter in game a few months before announcement (back when he was actually in matches on his account, normally in his Yen-Lo, like that match). Anyway, anecdote aside, I think the personal connection is probably the first and foremost point of interest for most buyers. After all, Battletech has a LONG history and people all have their personal stories and preferred mechs.

Secondly: Weight class. I personally do not enjoy piloting heavies and assaults. I have a few of them, but of my mechs, barely 25% are from those two weight classes combined. I know that puts me in the minority, but it is what it is. However, people's preferred weight classes probably do have a notable factor on interest. They're probably less likely to give a mech a serious look if it's not in a weight class they normally play. Russ has even indicated as much when it came to releasing the Javelin (first light in 2 years).

Lastly: Gameplay. While I certainly don't want mechs to be complete and utter lemons (and adamantly believe PGI needs to put more effort into balance), I probably would have still bought the Firestarter if it released in the abysmal state it's in today. I also would have still played the crap out of it. However, if I can see that a mech, that I might not have been overly interested in, provides some new and unique gameplay opportunities, then it might actually turn me around to giving it a shot. Take the Dervish for example . . . I'm actually giving it an extremely hard look at replacing the Kintaro for the purposes of being my light-hunter of choice. ST Missile doors, more energy backups, jump jets, and balanced hardpoint placement are all very enticing.

Anyway, I know my opinion means all of jack in the grand scheme of things, but you asked openly, so there it is.

#20400 50 50

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 07:41 PM

Still going to be interesting to see what mechs get introduced even if it is at a slower pace.
the next one is hinted at being something a bit special so prepared to wait and see and that is still exciting to speculate on.
In the mean time, gives me a bit of a chance to look at the ones I already have and revisit builds and skills as needed.
Still going to enjoy playing the game regardless as the mech combat is great.





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