20517 replies to this topic

[Sereglach]

Odanan, on 17 July 2019 - 04:29 PM, said:

I don't understand your math. $150 for 6 boxes = $25 each box.

The lowest price for the Clan box is the Star Commander ($50 for 1 box).

That $50 is MSRP. These are RETAILERS that are getting a supposed 50% "discount" . . . aka . . . what they'd pay as a business to order from warehouse . . . aka . . . . their normal price as a business anyway . . . aka . . . no discount. That's why backing at that tier requires retailers to prove they're a business by providing their business license.

However, yes, I will admit that I mistook the beginner box on the $20 package as what people were backing for, just without extras. However, that said . . .

Wow . . . seeing that mistake . . . this is a complete ripoff. Both the $20 and $30 packages don't even give you what you're backing to help produce . . . and the $50 package is a whopping 5 mech star. Seriously?! Ripoff. Period. You can get metal minis for $10 a mini, retail, and make the cards/sheets for FREE off of CGL's own online utilities or other free available utilities.

EDIT: In addition. Most of the extras in "Stretch Goals" are things people will have to buy, are limited in "free" bonus selections from higher tiers, or digital stuff that'll end up all over the internet anyway. Horrible Kickstarter considering what other mini companies, including small ones, put on offer. This is CGL going whaling hardcore.

Edited by Sereglach, 17 July 2019 - 07:56 PM.

[50 50]

Did anyone note one of the mechs (In particular) that was a work in progress in that kickstarter......
Perhaps one that we have not yet seen in MWO yet......
Hmmmm......

Let me get my tin foil hat.

Edited by 50 50, 19 July 2019 - 01:25 AM.

[Sereglach]

50 50, on 19 July 2019 - 01:22 AM, said:

Did anyone note one of the mechs (In particular) that was a work in progress in that kickstarter......
Perhaps one that we have not yet seen in MWO yet......
Hmmmm......

Let me get my tin foil hat.

Yeah, noticed the Crusader . . . honestly pretty meh over it, since they're going with the arm mounted launchers of their Phoenix rework instead of the traditional "shoulder" launchers at the top of the arm. The rest looks pretty good, but the arms just don't feel like the true classic Crusader; and that's a big deal considering the layout of the original classic.

[Marauder3D]

Sereglach, on 17 July 2019 - 07:53 PM, said:

Wow . . . seeing that mistake . . . this is a complete ripoff.

So value is definitely in the eye of the beholder. And just at the $50 level before everything funded, you might have been right. Now that we have met a TON of stretch goals, here is what $50 gets you. (Props to Sartris at bg.battletech.com for compiling all this....)

Clan Invasion Box Set

• 5 Minis
  
• Dice
  
• Clan Primer Booklet
  
• Clan Rulebook
  
• Record Sheets Booklet
  
• Novella
  
• Pilot Cards & Alpha Strike Cards
  
• Reference Card
  
• Game Maps
  
• Standees & Terrain Tile Punchboard

Now, because of the stretch goals, $50 level also receives:

• Digital Short Story
  
• Digital Record Sheets proof of concept app
  
• Challenge Coin
  
• 1 Salvage Box
  
• Pilot Cards Booster I
  
• 2 points of Elementals
  
• Premium Record Sheets
  
• Initiative Deck Addon
  
• Pilot Card Booster II (KS Exclusive)
  
• Faction Dice (1 pair)
  
• Map Pack: Tukayyid
  
• x4 neoprene BattleMat: Tukayyid
  
• Tactical Map Case

Now, to me, that is a hell of a value. $50 for all that? If you are a fan of tabletop gaming or BattleTech, this is a must have. In my opinion, if you are even curious about table top BattleTech, you will never have a better opportunity to get introduced to the game.




Best,

Mad

Edited by Marauder3D, 19 July 2019 - 09:49 AM.

[Sereglach]

Marauder3D, on 19 July 2019 - 09:36 AM, said:

So value is definitely in the eye of the beholder. And just at the $50 level before everything funded, you might have been right. Now that we have met a TON of stretch goals, here is what $50 gets you. (Props to Sartris at bg.battletech.com for compiling all this....)


Now, because of the stretch goals, $50 level also receives:

• [color=#000000]Digital Short Story[/color]
  
• Digital Record Sheets proof of concept app
  
• [color=#000000]Challenge Coin[/color]
  
• 1 Salvage Box
  
• [color=#000000]Pilot Cards Booster I[/color]
  
• 2 points of Elementals
  
• [color=#000000]Premium Record Sheets[/color]
  
• Initiative Deck Addon
  
• [color=#000000]Pilot Card Booster II (KS Exclusive)[/color]
  
• Faction Dice (1 pair)
  
• [color=#000000]Map Pack: Tukayyid [/color]
  
• x4 neoprene BattleMat: Tukayyid
  
• [color=#000000]Tactical Map Case[/color]

Now, to me, that is a hell of a value. $50 for all that? If you are a fan of tabletop gaming or BattleTech, this is a must have. In my opinion, if you are even curious about table top BattleTech, you will never have a better opportunity to get introduced to the game.


Best,

Mad

Digital items will end up free online. It must due to IP rights ownership (Microsoft owns EVERYTHING software for Battletech, which is why CGL can't make card/sheet software for sale). Other digital free items will end up all over the internet due to inevitability of e-sharing.

10 mechs and 10 elementals . . . still WAY overpriced to me for a Kickstarter nearing $750k. Again, other miniature kickstarters START at 50% retail price to help fund the production, by buying in at warehouse prices, with value increasing over time. It's barely made it to warehouse value, now. Compare to a kickstarter from Reaper, Dark Sword (which are metal minis, no less), or even other small-time companies and this value is still way overpriced.

The mats MIGHT help push up the value, but they're catering almost exclusively to hex-play (you could ignore the hexes for Alpha Strike's base measuring, but it's counterproductive). I'll concede that's debatable at that point, but it's not that great as a standalone item.

However, addons are still atrocious value and complete whaling ripoffs. $5 per two PLASTIC dice? You could spend $5 to get sets of nice metal dice that were LIMITED RUN in the past. $40 to get the IS mechs from the beginners box? That's saving $10 but NOT getting anything else in the actual box set. That's just a few examples.

Compared to other companies, I'll adamantly stand by CGL using this kickstarter to go hardcore whaling. Besides, the price per person shows it already. Average buy-in right now is $195.96 . . . which is a notable increase since the beginning. Even their own comments section has numerous comments stating that the $150 buy-in is where you must go in order to start getting your money's worth. $150 to get ~ $200 in value after stretch goals vs. a Reaper Kickstarter where $100 gets you $300-500 in value after stretch goals. It's not even close.

[Marauder3D]

Like I said, value is definitely in the eye of the beholder. And, while I don't think $200 makes someone a whale, many of the big battletech fans are a little older, which can equate to time-poor but cash-rich. Way easier to spend $50 on something you like than it is to find enough time to enjoy it.

Cheers,

Mad

[Bishop Steiner]

still waiting for my anti meta mech....

[Sereglach]

So . . . MW5 is releasing December 2021 for anyone who doesn't want to submit to the Epic gamestore sleaze and spyware (yeah, it's in there, and it's thoroughly proven). What a disappointment.

Well, that seems to confirm everyone's fears that PGI was about to collapse financially, because the FAQ explicitly states they made the decision on grounds of "financial footing".

Great . . . another IP that's going to be ruined by the lecherous practices of Epic and another MAJOR PR blunder on the part of PGI and Russ Bullock by selling out like this. Will people even want to buy MW5 by 2021? The game better be made of solid gold.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Sereglach, on 25 July 2019 - 08:16 AM, said:

So . . . MW5 is releasing December 2021 for anyone who doesn't want to submit to the Epic gamestore sleaze and spyware (yeah, it's in there, and it's thoroughly proven). What a disappointment.

Well, that seems to confirm everyone's fears that PGI was about to collapse financially, because the FAQ explicitly states they made the decision on grounds of "financial footing".

Great . . . another IP that's going to be ruined by the lecherous practices of Epic and another MAJOR PR blunder on the part of PGI and Russ Bullock by selling out like this. Will people even want to buy MW5 by 2021? The game better be made of solid gold.

*sigh* :/

[Odanan]

This is a sad day.

[Odanan]

From Bishop Steiner's own facebook:

Quote

Epic deal finalized just before E3

FAQ update was somewhat irrelevant since Pre-Orders had been closed, so no new buyers were being promised a Steam Key after PGI had already decided to change.

These deals have NDAs. Russ could not address it until official announcement. Did he mishandle it? Yes.

They knew a few days before the end of PreSale that the deal was likely. But it was NOT done. Around Mech-Con etc, they seemed to be a poor fit. But Russ actually likes the disruption Epic is causing to break Steam monopoly.

Number one reason they went Epic. DISCOVERABILITY. Simply better visibility for their game on Epic. Less competition, more promotion, much less cost.

"Not short sighted money grab" doesn't make sense studios would do this.

People also forget that Steam was not always the mature platform it is now. But with 150 games being added a week on Steam, without huge marketing budget, discoverability on Steam is massively limited.

Epic has some very big games, with more coming. But on Epic, they will have far more discoverability, and because of games like Borderlands 3, Fortnite, etc, there will be MASSIVE numbers of hits, more discoverability, because they are bringing MILLIONS to the party, and unlike Steam, with Epic, they will be Front Page and thus actually More visible.

Also... with Steam, 30% plus 5% for Unreal. Vs 12% total.

Epic is building brand, and does offer significant money up front. Simple economics. Sorry that offends people.

Push back...an extra 9 months is a huge financial stretch for independent studios. Also September was starting to get crowded with big titles, and also they were going to be a more limited release, English only, initially, etc. Later became more attractive.. but also more of a financial hurdle.

Early December has been owned by MWO for last 4 years for press visibility, etc.

also allowed for German, French, Russian added for December covering the majority of Mechwarrior Playerbase. Also allowed for more Marketing Budget and time.

But if you think they didn't know the backlash was coming... you're delusional. But despite that, they felt long term, for health of game and studio, it had to be risked. Exposure and Market success beyond the niche playerbase is mandatory for survival.

Acknowledging Steam Key in PreOrder pitch is why 100% MW5 refund, no questions asked, with MWO stuff kept. PGI is paying 100% of the refunds NOT Epic games.

20k pre-orders. For some folks Steam Key was a big selling point. So Refunds. 1200 so far. Most of the time first 24-48 hrs see most of traffic. Customer support isn't huge. So following up in 3-4 hrs just slows things down further. Be patient.

Q&A

How Does PGI operate after 2 delays?
-PGI doesn't have mandated overtime, etc. So it's been more voluntary but not give the unhealthy work/life balance other studios are suffering

Looking fr things to tide them over: Demos, Streams, etc?
-Marketing will be ramping up by Labor Day. 3 month push for release. More videos, trailers, etc. Been holding back to wait to show best stuff for release.

More Funding allow more MWO expansions or MW5 Expansions?
-No more short term MWO development. MW5 is what is focus and what money is for. Post Dec 10, might see more MWO after but until them, all focus is MW5.

Why took so long to explain to community.
-Happened fast. Takes a long time to get stuff going but then it slams together fast. Multiple companies involved means multiple delays and considerations.

If I wait for 12 month exclusivity to end, can I get my Steam Key THEN?
-Not definitive. Needs to research more, it's also 16 months ahead. So hesitant to make a promise he can't 100% be sure to keep. Be probably better to get refund, then buy when on Steam. But hold on, but seems unlikely. Can you give a definitive before Refund Deadline (September 1)? Yes will do that. Possibly within a week or two.

Further Mech Packs for MWO:
-Short term, no.

MW5 Clans?
-Not sure if first DLC will be Clans yet. Depends on part how successful, how large DLCs are, what they contain. But that is goal. They have the assets.

Cross Platform?
-Once exclusive period ends, ship on Steam and GoG, apparently Epic is big proponent of Cross Platform. As is Microsoft. Can't promise but seems likely. Peer to Peer invite. is limited by Portal. Not something will be officially supported but it's something tthat should be doable player side.

Why can we not get Demo beta earlier than November?
-Beta is not really beta any more. Not about testing. It's early teaser. So now instead of risking bad exposure, wait until polished and do the more common late access beta that is the norm today.

So Sure About Epic Discoverability?
-time will tell.

Will things be more transparent in future?
-trying. Other concerns sometimes slow down what one can comment/reveal

MW5 Price?
-Not set yet. (feels strongly it's a 49.99 USD game, but not set in stone yet)

License:
- Can't answer beyond MW5 yet.

Solo Launch MW5 without Middle man?
-Not really prepared, but should be able to simply click executable. Co-Op will for sure require internet (duh?)

Eventual Steam Key /direct download?
- Probably yes. But not sure. (seems a flip flop, apparent CS and Epic seems willing?)

-MW5 acct is not bound to epic. Or Steam or MWO, etc. MW5 is it's own site. Not shared with Epic. Epic only gets your base Epic acct info.

GoG integrated?
- Same answer as Steam?

New Footage?
-Labor Day weekend and after.

Epic Version of Steam Workshop is anticipated earl y2020.

Beta will be Full Single Player/Co-op Instant Action not Campaign.

Provide More Detail on Sales:
-Exposure is simply buried within 10 hrs f a new patch. Sales data informs visibility and does sheer number of titles. Metro Exodus has sold 2x as many Epic games than the 2 previous Metro titles on Steam did. Not 100% n the details. Don't need 100 million people who don't see the title, when he can get 10 million people who DO see the title and might think.. "Huh that looks neat".

Buy on MW5.Com on launch?
-After 12 month exclusive.

MWO pull plug?
-Nothing in sight on that.

Current State of MW5?
2 weeks from Alpha, 6 more till Beta?

Edited by Odanan, 26 July 2019 - 11:58 AM.

[Shadowomega1]

Odanan, on 26 July 2019 - 11:57 AM, said:

From Bishop Steiner's own facebook:

Reading over that is kind of inline of what I was thinking that they were looking at, however the discoverability leaves me wondering wtf, as I have games that show in the store for weeks I don't mess with anything with in the genre to even have it there. Will likely still wait till the steam release.

IE Ace Combat 7 was there on my store page for a couple months, Doom has been there for a year, and Even GTAV has been on my steam store front page ever sense it came out. Heck even ARK and Rocket League have been there seemingly forever. Before anyone says due to following them or having them on my wishlist their not.

[Sereglach]

It's a mess, a complete Charlie Foxtrot, and the WORST possible move PGI could have made (as made clear by the already 30 . . . yes THIRTY . . . pages of absolute vitriol).

The "discoverability" is a joke, as Steam gets LOADS more traffic than EGS. The reality is that they clearly sold out because they were about to fold, relatively speaking, as made clear with the "financial footing" directly stated in their Q&A. They apparently weren't going to survive to their December release.

What's worse is that this essentially removes modding from the equation for the foreseeable future. They've already backed out on that promise by saying that they'll get it to the masses as EGS "implements their modding support". They still don't even have a proper friends list . . . and supposedly modding support is right around the corner? Yeah . . . right.

Maybe they'll have their crap together by the time a Steam release hits, but with this move I don't have my hopes up. I'm sure plenty of people will be sailing the high seas, but if the modding isn't there I wouldn't even waste my time with that.

[50 50]

Re: EPIC release.
Thanks for that Q&A there, it does make a lot of sense to me.
Steam is cluttered and unless it's done the data mining on your accounts and is bringing up games you might like, MW5 could simply be hidden in there.
The comment about not needing 100 million people to not see it there, vs 10 million who do is pretty relevant.
Personally don't care and I'll get it on EPIC.

However, mech discussion thread so...

Bishop Steiner, on 21 July 2019 - 04:41 AM, said:

still waiting for my anti meta mech....

Crossbow?

[Bishop Steiner]

50 50, on 26 July 2019 - 06:03 PM, said:

Re: EPIC release.
Thanks for that Q&A there, it does make a lot of sense to me.
Steam is cluttered and unless it's done the data mining on your accounts and is bringing up games you might like, MW5 could simply be hidden in there.
The comment about not needing 100 million people to not see it there, vs 10 million who do is pretty relevant.
Personally don't care and I'll get it on EPIC.

However, mech discussion thread so...



Crossbow?

Yes indeed. I famously love.... bad mechs.

And agree with your other statements.

[Sereglach]

50 50, on 26 July 2019 - 06:03 PM, said:

Re: EPIC release.
Thanks for that Q&A there, it does make a lot of sense to me.
Steam is cluttered and unless it's done the data mining on your accounts and is bringing up games you might like, MW5 could simply be hidden in there.
The comment about not needing 100 million people to not see it there, vs 10 million who do is pretty relevant.

Thoroughly disproven already. Whether it fits your datamining or not, any major release gets put into your forced Steam newsfeed on launch. MW5 would get exposure as long as PGI ensured an announcement in that feed. The question is whether they put out a quality enough game to actually make sales.

Also, PGI would need to make at least 80% of the sales they'd get on Steam to break even with Epic exclusivity . . . and that's not going to happen. Even if you were to throw in all of the Fortnite exclusive players (who are absolutely not buying MW5 because they're a completely different demographic), it's still nothing like the traffic on Steam.

If they wanted to put the game on Epic, then I don't care. What I do care about is the bait-and-switch criminal tactics (yes, criminal, it directly violates numerous Canadian and US laws) that PGI used. I hope Russ, and others who've made these deals, have to directly answer for those actions in the court of law. Then maybe these horrible anti-consumer tactics will finally stop.

[Bishop Steiner]

[Bishop Steiner]

and by soon, I mean.. now.
the new TT urbanmech in development.

[Odanan]

Final hours!!

Battletech Clan Invasion Kickstarter.

[Sereglach]

Odanan, on 17 August 2019 - 01:57 PM, said:

Final hours!!

Battletech Clan Invasion Kickstarter.

11,277 backers pledged $2,586,421 . . . Average backer investment . . . $229.35 US. While I still consider that quite the whaling expedition for a Kickstarter campaign, that's not what will be truly important for CGL. I'm now far more curious about the actual long-term potential for the products.

Battletech longevity matters far more than a successful kickstarter campagin. Funding molds and production lines means nothing if no one outside the kickstarter buys into the game. Sadly, that's beyond an uphill battle for CGL as Battletech has been considered a DEAD TT game for decades in most corners of the world. With the monumental risk-taking that CGL is doing with this move, a lack of long-term product success could prove fatal for them.

The real goal is going to see whether or not new models for mechs will bring in a new generation of Battletech fans. TT Wargame players are used to fast-paced games with highly detailed and high quality miniatures. While we all have our nostalgic favorites, we still have to admit that most of the old sculpts are pretty fugly by modern standards. The new beginner box, core box, clan box, and lance/star packs help set a baseline. They look good and appear to be respectable quality plastic minis. It's been quite the road for CGL over the past few years, but they're finally reaching the point of being competitive in the looks department.

On the other hand, support for Alpha Strike is spotty at best (especially with grognard pushback), and CGL has an infamously abyssmal support structure for vendors, distributors, and customers. Those are two big negatives going against them. One, the customer service, they can easily turn around with some actual effort in distributor and vendor outreach. The other, Alpha Strike, needs more significant support (and a serious attitude adjustment in the fan base) to help CGL succeed on any long-term scale. Of course, it could prove successful enough to just overshadow and swallow the grognards with an overwhelming amount of new blood . . . this generation of players who cut teeth on games like WarMachine, Hordes, new-gen (surprisingly streamlined) 40k rules, Heroclix, etc.

If CGL got smart, marketed the tiers of play as more seamless transitions (Alpha Strike for large battles, CBT for small battles, and AToW for nitty-gritty RPG), fixed the overall rules bloat (HBS DFA streams showed some good changes, and they need to streamline/fix a LOT), then they might just have a good chance at bringing in new blood for all levels of play. Overall, only time will tell whether the Kickstarter campaign is a true success for CGL, or whether the influx of money just staves off Battletech's currently slow spiral towards death. A definitively good sign will be whether regular game shops actually start carrying CGL's Battletech products again.

Regardless, it'll be fascinating to watch over the next few years.