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BattleMech Balance

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#3521 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 01:18 PM

View PostButane9000, on 14 May 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:


We know they aren't going to add the reseen/unseen in. It's quite clear they want nothing to do with them. As well as the fanbase only wants the old school/classic/copyrighted designs and not the reseen.

I think we have several fine options per weight class:

Lights: Hermes, Firestarter, Javelin, Hussar, Mongoose

Mediums: Hermes II, Sentinel, Vindicator, Kintaro, Clint, Crab, Whitworth, DERVISH, Vulcan

Heavies: Lancelot, Quickdraw, Guillotine, Black Knight

Assaults: Victor, Victor, Victor, Cyclops, Victor, Victor

As for the other... who know?


fixed that for you

#3522 Butane9000

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 02:59 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 14 May 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:


fixed that for you


based on the Master Unit List the Dervish only has 2 variants available by 3050. Those being the DV-6M and DV-7D. One could make an argument for the DV-1S but I doubt it since it's all around a completely worse variant then the standard DV-6M.

Edit: And I can see your love of the Victor. Who knows, it has it's own things it brings to the table. Might be able to shove out the Zeus.

Edited by Butane9000, 14 May 2013 - 03:00 PM.


#3523 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 04:09 PM

View PostButane9000, on 14 May 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:


based on the Master Unit List the Dervish only has 2 variants available by 3050. Those being the DV-6M and DV-7D. One could make an argument for the DV-1S but I doubt it since it's all around a completely worse variant then the standard DV-6M.

Edit: And I can see your love of the Victor. Who knows, it has it's own things it brings to the table. Might be able to shove out the Zeus.

The DV-6M is the stock unit, same as the HBK-4G (or P, J, H, SP) or ANY of the IS Mechs so far. It is the "Stock" variant.

The DV-7D is the "Upgrade" introduced in 3047, just as the JM-6DD is the upgrade to the JM-6S Jagermech.

The DV-6Md, was introduced in the height of the ORIGINAL Star League, probably the early 2700s, and is the unit fielded by the SLDF Royal Regiments, which is significantly upgraded, with larger LRM launchers and an XL Engine.

the 1S, as you noted, is using Obsolete Tech, and thus would not be represented. And worst case, they can make up variants, like they did with the Highlander.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dervish

#3524 Odanan

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 04:26 PM

View PostButane9000, on 14 May 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:


We know they aren't going to add the reseen/unseen in. It's quite clear they want nothing to do with them. As well as the fanbase only wants the old school/classic/copyrighted designs and not the reseen.


Not true.

#3525 Strum Wealh

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 04:52 PM

So... potential next 75-tonners? :D Barring a time-skip and/or inclusion of the Unseen/Reseen, the only other currently (or near-term) MWO-viable 75-ton IS 'Mech is the Black Knight (which, due to the all-energy armaments and lack of Jump Jets, wouldn't be yet another PPC/Gauss poptart, as it was in MW4).

The Clans would (of course) get access to the Mad Cat, with a near-term option in the Night Gyr and possibly reviving the Woodsman.

Thoughts?

#3526 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 05:34 PM

View PostThontor, on 14 May 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

All the Highlander variants in the game are canon. None are made up by PGI.

I am unaware of the origin of of the 733P and 733C. Not saying they can't be, but I sure haven't seen em, including in my Record Sheets. Got a link?

#3527 Strum Wealh

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 05:35 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 14 May 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

The DV-6M is the stock unit, same as the HBK-4G (or P, J, H, SP) or ANY of the IS Mechs so far. It is the "Stock" variant.

The DV-7D is the "Upgrade" introduced in 3047, just as the JM-6DD is the upgrade to the JM-6S Jagermech.

The DV-6Md, was introduced in the height of the ORIGINAL Star League, probably the early 2700s, and is the unit fielded by the SLDF Royal Regiments, which is significantly upgraded, with larger LRM launchers and an XL Engine.

the 1S, as you noted, is using Obsolete Tech, and thus would not be represented. And worst case, they can make up variants, like they did with the Highlander.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dervish

Technically, the DV-6Md is a "Star League era variant", which isn't always (or in the Dervish's particular case) necessarily the same thing as being a "Royal variant" (that is, designed specifically - and sometimes, exclusively - for use by the Star League Defense Force Royal Divisions).

"Generally, the Royal Divisions were given the newest weapon technologies first, the rest of the SLDF second, and only then to the armies of the member states. During the military buildup under First Lord Jonathan Cameron, this policy was re-emphasized."
Generally, the SLDF Royal 'Mech variants were designated with a lower-case "b", as with the WHM-6Rb, STK-3Fb, BLR-1Gb, BL-6b-KNT, ARC-2Rb, EXT-4Db, WVE-5Nb, HGN-732b, CHP-1Nb, and so on.

Merely existing during the days of the original Star League and incorporating LosTech (ES, FF, DHS, CASE, and/or certain weapons) is not necessarily indicative of being a Royal variant (though, there does tend to be a correlation).

Also, as indicated elsewhere: each of the Highlander variants (HGN-732, HGN-733, HGN-733C, and HGN-733P) were not made up by PGI, but by FASA and Catalyst (who did so long before the MWO project began) - which makes each of them them official variants.
The nearest PGI has come to "making up" a Highlander variant is in exercising some creative license in the naming and loadout of Rhonda Snord's 'Mech (and even then, they generally maintained the canonical aesthetic).

#3528 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 05:42 PM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 14 May 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

Technically, the DV-6Md is a "Star League era variant", which isn't always (or in the Dervish's particular case) necessarily the same thing as being a "Royal variant" (that is, designed specifically - and sometimes, exclusively - for use by the Star League Defense Force Royal Divisions).

"Generally, the Royal Divisions were given the newest weapon technologies first, the rest of the SLDF second, and only then to the armies of the member states. During the military buildup under First Lord Jonathan Cameron, this policy was re-emphasized."
Generally, the SLDF Royal 'Mech variants were designated with a lower-case "b", as with the WHM-6Rb, STK-3Fb, BLR-1Gb, BL-6b-KNT, ARC-2Rb, EXT-4Db, WVE-5Nb, HGN-732b, CHP-1Nb, and so on.

Merely existing during the days of the original Star League and incorporating LosTech (ES, FF, DHS, CASE, and/or certain weapons) is not necessarily indicative of being a Royal variant (though, there does tend to be a correlation).

Also, as indicated elsewhere: each of the Highlander variants (HGN-732, HGN-733, HGN-733C, and HGN-733P) were not made up by PGI, but by FASA and Catalyst (who did so long before the MWO project began) - which makes each of them them official variants.
The nearest PGI has come to "making up" a Highlander variant is in exercising some creative license in the naming and loadout of Rhonda Snord's 'Mech (and even then, they generally maintained the canonical aesthetic).

Thank you.

None of which dilutes the point. Which is that there are 3 canon variants to the Dervish (4 with the Primitive) available.

#3529 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 05:56 PM

View PostThontor, on 14 May 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

HGN-733C
HGN-733P

TRO sources are listed on there, there is even link a link to a PDF of the record sheet on the very bottom.

yes. Sturm posted them.

I am allowed to not know every single bit of minutiae, yes? The point of the post was that there were 3 Dervish variant available.

#3530 Strum Wealh

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 06:01 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 14 May 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

None of which dilutes the point. Which is that there are 3 canon variants to the Dervish (4 with the Primitive) available.

Indeed - and a point that I also made previously in this thread (and elsewhere). :D

#3531 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 06:06 PM

now do you have a list of which are, and are not Royal SLDF units? I was under the impression that Standard SLDF units ran essentially level 1 tech and the Royal Regiments alone were issued the advanced tech. Admittedly, that assumption was based on the written material produced pre-2000. Have not kept up with stuff since, TBH.

#3532 Strum Wealh

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 07:29 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 14 May 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

now do you have a list of which are, and are not Royal SLDF units? I was under the impression that Standard SLDF units ran essentially level 1 tech and the Royal Regiments alone were issued the advanced tech. Admittedly, that assumption was based on the written material produced pre-2000. Have not kept up with stuff since, TBH.

Basically, anything in this list that has the word "Royal" in the unit's name...?

#3533 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 07:34 PM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 14 May 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Basically, anything in this list that has the word "Royal" in the unit's name...?

pretty sure that list doesn't list which Chassis are exclusive to those regiments

#3534 Odanan

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 04:11 AM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 14 May 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

So... potential next 75-tonners? :( Barring a time-skip and/or inclusion of the Unseen/Reseen, the only other currently (or near-term) MWO-viable 75-ton IS 'Mech is the Black Knight (which, due to the all-energy armaments and lack of Jump Jets, wouldn't be yet another PPC/Gauss poptart, as it was in MW4).

The Clans would (of course) get access to the Mad Cat, with a near-term option in the Night Gyr and possibly reviving the Woodsman.

Thoughts?


You didn't need to add all those mechs to the list, but OK. Let me clean it up for you:

- Black Knight wouldn't work for MWO (sorry MW4 players) and you know it.
- Timber Wolf/Mad Cat will be in the game with the first Clan "wave", there is no doubt about that.
- Night Gyr will probably be in the second Clan wave (3052 is relatively close).
- Marauder would certainly be in the game if it wasn't the Unseen/Reseen issue. We don't know if the devs will ever cross this troubled territory, but if they do, Marauder will be one of the first mechs to be chosen.
- Woodsman: unless they add the Arrow IV, the mech does not have a chance. Even them, it is too similar to the Timber Wolf and practically extinct .

#3535 Belorion

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 04:57 AM

Including the mechs already in game given the selection criteria through 3055 we have 24 possible lights, 30 mediums, 28 Heavies, and 25 Assaults.

I did not include the Dervish, as the DV-6Md doesn't appear in any of the TROs or the MUL.

So even if they add every single one of those we still run out in about 3.4 years. Till then we are pretty safe though.

#3536 Belorion

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:04 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 14 May 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

yes. Sturm posted them. I am allowed to not know every single bit of minutiae, yes? The point of the post was that there were 3 Dervish variant available.


The primitive variant doesn't count since it has tech not available in game, nor likely to be added. The MUL actually lists those Highlander variants.

http://www.masteruni...Cost=&BookAuto=

http://www.masteruni...Cost=&BookAuto=

#3537 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:07 AM

View PostBelorion, on 15 May 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

Including the mechs already in game given the selection criteria through 3055 we have 24 possible lights, 30 mediums, 28 Heavies, and 25 Assaults.

I did not include the Dervish, as the DV-6Md doesn't appear in any of the TROs or the MUL.

So even if they add every single one of those we still run out in about 3.4 years. Till then we are pretty safe though.

http://www.masteruni...es=18&BookAuto=

Looks like the DV-6Md right there to me. Star League Era means the chassis would technically be available, though 99.9% would likely be with Comstar or the Clans.

View PostBelorion, on 15 May 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:


The primitive variant doesn't count since it has tech not available in game, nor likely to be added. The MUL actually lists those Highlander variants.

http://www.masteruni...Cost=&BookAuto=

http://www.masteruni...Cost=&BookAuto=

And funny that you answer me answering the answer where those links were already given. Just sayin.

#3538 Belorion

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:13 AM

Ah... I see now, I keep missing it because the date is missing from the MUL.

Sweet...

Bring on the Dervish. We may have just bumped up to 3.5 years.

#3539 Strum Wealh

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:16 AM

View PostOdanan, on 15 May 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

You didn't need to add all those mechs to the list, but OK. Let me clean it up for you:

- Black Knight wouldn't work for MWO (sorry MW4 players) and you know it.
- Timber Wolf/Mad Cat will be in the game with the first Clan "wave", there is no doubt about that.
- Night Gyr will probably be in the second Clan wave (3052 is relatively close).
- Marauder would certainly be in the game if it wasn't the Unseen/Reseen issue. We don't know if the devs will ever cross this troubled territory, but if they do, Marauder will be one of the first mechs to be chosen.
- Woodsman: unless they add the Arrow IV, the mech does not have a chance. Even them, it is too similar to the Timber Wolf and practically extinct .

Fair points on the others, but I believe that the Black Knight's chances should be re-evaluated in light of the release of the Highlander.

One issue is that, like the Highlander, the "primary" variant (the BL-6-KNT) technically/officially doesn't go back into mass production until later in the timeline (circa 3065, according to some sources).
However, the other variants (the BK-7-KNT and BK-7-KNT-L) are currently in production, and all of the needed LosTech for the BL-6-KNT (Endo Steel, BAP) has long since been recovered.
Additionally, that the "primary" Black Knight variant (which doesn't take much LosTech to create from one of the other variants) technically/officially isn't in mass production while the downgraded variants are is the same situation in which the Highlander (currently in-game) is found, so the latter does set a precedent.

Another issue is that the variants are fairly homogeneous - a trait shared with both the Dervish (see previous proposals on how to address that) and Highlander (currently in-game; see: HGN-732, HGN-733, HGN-733C), and resolved by an extra hardpoint or two here-and-there (though, the 'Mech starts with a minimum of 8 hardpoints needed, so not too many can be added - and, as with the Spider (currently in-game), not every variant may get additional hardpoints).

Finally, the existence of Ian McKinnon's personal Black Knight variant, the BL-6-KNT (Ian) seems to indicate that the design had still existed in some capacity when the recovery of LosTech began.
"BL-6-KNT Black Knight Ian - Downgraded during the technological decline of the Succession Wars era, the personal 'Mech of the McKinnon family was selected to receive among the first experimental weapons developed from the Helm Memory Core by the New Avalon Institute of Science, thanks to the exploits of Fox's Teeth commander Ian McKinnon. When piloted by Ian during the War of 3039, the 'Mech was clad in prototype Ferro-Fibrous armor and the standard heat sinks outside the engine were replaced with corrosive 3039 era double heat sinks. These weight savings, along with the removal of the head-mounted small laser, allowed the 'Mech to carry a Hatchet whose damage was boosted by the addition of Triple Strength Myomers."
(Hark, a canonical Hero 'Mech! :()

And from a "metagame" perspective, a MWO Black Knight would be based on the canonical design - not an OmniMech (as in MW4) and not a jump-capable, Gauss/PPC-toting monstrosity (as in MW4), but as a flexible heavy-class energy boat.

So, why exactly wouldn't the Black Knight work in MWO? :wub:

#3540 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:16 AM

View PostBelorion, on 15 May 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

Ah... I see now, I keep missing it because the date is missing from the MUL.

Sweet...

Bring on the Dervish. We may have just bumped up to 3.5 years.

maybe 3.6

try to be optimistic. :(

and that'll get us to 3054 (not even counting Clanner toys)..... after which I guess they need to crack open the 3058 TRO. Of course, they could also do things like go back and fill in the missing variants of existing mechs *coughGrandDragon*, which I would love.





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