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Ultimate Mech Discussion Thread

BattleMech Balance

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#3541 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:26 AM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 15 May 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

Fair points on the others, but I believe that the Black Knight's chances should be re-evaluated in light of the release of the Highlander.

One issue is that, like the Highlander, the "primary" variant (the BL-6-KNT) technically/officially doesn't go back into mass production until later in the timeline (circa 3065, according to some sources).
However, the other variants (the BK-7-KNT and BK-7-KNT-L) are currently in production, and all of the needed LosTech for the BL-6-KNT (Endo Steel, BAP) has long since been recovered.
Additionally, that the "primary" Black Knight variant (which doesn't take much LosTech to create from one of the other variants) technically/officially isn't in mass production while the downgraded variants are is the same situation in which the Highlander (currently in-game) is found, so the latter does set a precedent.

Another issue is that the variants are fairly homogeneous - a trait shared with both the Dervish (see previous proposals on how to address that) and Highlander (currently in-game; see: HGN-732, HGN-733, HGN-733C), and resolved by an extra hardpoint or two here-and-there (though, the 'Mech starts with a minimum of 8 hardpoints needed, so not too many can be added - and, as with the Spider (currently in-game), not every variant may get additional hardpoints).

Finally, the existence of Ian McKinnon's personal Black Knight variant, the BL-6-KNT (Ian) seems to indicate that the design had still existed in some capacity when the recovery of LosTech began.
"BL-6-KNT Black Knight Ian - Downgraded during the technological decline of the Succession Wars era, the personal 'Mech of the McKinnon family was selected to receive among the first experimental weapons developed from the Helm Memory Core by the New Avalon Institute of Science, thanks to the exploits of Fox's Teeth commander Ian McKinnon. When piloted by Ian during the War of 3039, the 'Mech was clad in prototype Ferro-Fibrous armor and the standard heat sinks outside the engine were replaced with corrosive 3039 era double heat sinks. These weight savings, along with the removal of the head-mounted small laser, allowed the 'Mech to carry a Hatchet whose damage was boosted by the addition of Triple Strength Myomers."
(Hark, a canonical Hero 'Mech! :()

And from a "metagame" perspective, a MWO Black Knight would be based on the canonical design - not an OmniMech (as in MW4) and not a jump-capable, Gauss/PPC-toting monstrosity (as in MW4), but as a flexible heavy-class energy boat.

So, why exactly wouldn't the Black Knight work in MWO? :wub:

I would be OK with it (the Canon Champ especially)
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#3542 Belorion

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:28 AM

I actually included the Grand Dragon in my count. I was being optimistic. There are many on my list that people would dismiss out of hand for various reasons (Wolf's Dragoons exclusive, ultra rare, redundant, etc.).

I don't necessarily think rarity should be a reason not to include it. We the players are supposed to represent the exception in the MWO universe not the rule (cause we are special and stuff).

If we were really going on rarity we shouldn't be driving anything other than the unseen. They are after all the common mechs of the day (an odd decision of FASA to make all the licensed artwork the common mechs, and to create unique artwork for mechs that no one really uses.)

Edited by Belorion, 15 May 2013 - 05:29 AM.


#3543 Kuso

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:38 AM

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bandersnatch

If they manage to think up a way to include single variant mechs in the next year and a half, this would be pretty cool.

I'm keeping hope alive for the King Crab as the next assault!

#3544 Odanan

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:52 AM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 15 May 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

So, why exactly wouldn't the Black Knight work in MWO? :(


Are you kidding? Is this just for polemics or are you really not as smart as I thought you are?

Just look at the hardpoints. They are the same.


Black Knight BL-6-KNT (2750) - speed 64.8, Endo Steel

RA 2E (PPC, Medium Laser)
RT 2E (Large Laser, Medium Laser)
H 1E (Small Laser)
CT
LT 2E (Large Laser, Medium Laser)
LA 1E (Medium Laser)

-----------------------------------------
Black Knight BL-6b-KNT (2750) - speed 64.8, DHS

RA 2E (ER PPC, Medium Laser)
RT 2E (Large Pulse Laser, Medium Laser)
H 1E (Small Laser)
CT
LT 2E (Large Pulse Laser, Medium Laser)
LA 1E (Medium Laser)

-----------------------------------------
Black Knight BL-7-KNT (3025) - speed 64.8

RA 2E (PPC, Medium Laser)
RT 2E (Large Laser, Medium Laser)
H 1E (Small Laser)
CT
LT 2E (Large Laser, Medium Laser)
LA 1E (Medium Laser)

-----------------------------------------
Black Knight BL-7-KNT-L (3025) - speed 64.8

RA 2E (Large Laser, Medium Laser)
RT 2E (Large Laser, Medium Laser)
H 1E (Small Laser)
CT
LT 2E (Large Laser, Medium Laser)
LA 1E (Medium Laser)

-----------------------------------------
Black Knight BL-9-KNT (3052) - speed 64.8, Endo Steel, XL Engine, Hatchet

RA 2E (ER PPC, Medium Pulse Laser)
RT 2E (Large Laser, Medium Pulse Laser)
H 1E (Small Laser)
CT 1E (Large Pulse Laser)
LT 2E (Large Laser, Medium Pulse Laser)
LA 1E (Medium Pulse Laser) + Hatchet

Even if adding one extra energy hardpoint in a different location for every variant, they would all end the same 9 energy hardpoints crap (sounds like an Awesome to me). Don't let your personal feeling by this mech to blind you.

PS: I fart in the face of the Black Knight.

#3545 Butane9000

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 06:14 AM

View PostOdanan, on 15 May 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:


Are you kidding? Is this just for polemics or are you really not as smart as I thought you are?

Just look at the hardpoints. They are the same.


Black Knight BL-6-KNT (2750) - speed 64.8, Endo Steel

RA 2E (PPC, Medium Laser)
RT 2E (Large Laser, Medium Laser)
H 1E (Small Laser)
CT
LT 2E (Large Laser, Medium Laser)
LA 1E (Medium Laser)

-----------------------------------------
Black Knight BL-6b-KNT (2750) - speed 64.8, DHS

RA 2E (ER PPC, Medium Laser)
RT 2E (Large Pulse Laser, Medium Laser)
H 1E (Small Laser)
CT
LT 2E (Large Pulse Laser, Medium Laser)
LA 1E (Medium Laser)

-----------------------------------------
Black Knight BL-7-KNT (3025) - speed 64.8

RA 2E (PPC, Medium Laser)
RT 2E (Large Laser, Medium Laser)
H 1E (Small Laser)
CT
LT 2E (Large Laser, Medium Laser)
LA 1E (Medium Laser)

-----------------------------------------
Black Knight BL-7-KNT-L (3025) - speed 64.8

RA 2E (Large Laser, Medium Laser)
RT 2E (Large Laser, Medium Laser)
H 1E (Small Laser)
CT
LT 2E (Large Laser, Medium Laser)
LA 1E (Medium Laser)

-----------------------------------------
Black Knight BL-9-KNT (3052) - speed 64.8, Endo Steel, XL Engine, Hatchet

RA 2E (ER PPC, Medium Pulse Laser)
RT 2E (Large Laser, Medium Pulse Laser)
H 1E (Small Laser)
CT 1E (Large Pulse Laser)
LT 2E (Large Laser, Medium Pulse Laser)
LA 1E (Medium Pulse Laser) + Hatchet

Even if adding one extra energy hardpoint in a different location for every variant, they would all end the same 9 energy hardpoints crap (sounds like an Awesome to me). Don't let your personal feeling by this mech to blind you.

PS: I fart in the face of the Black Knight.


You must really hate that thing.

View PostBishop Steiner, on 15 May 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

http://www.masteruni...es=18&BookAuto=

Looks like the DV-6Md right there to me. Star League Era means the chassis would technically be available, though 99.9% would likely be with Comstar or the Clans.


And funny that you answer me answering the answer where those links were already given. Just sayin.


I still don't think the DV-6Md would make it. It doesn't even have a rule set or introduction date like the others.

#3546 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 07:02 AM

View PostBelorion, on 15 May 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

I actually included the Grand Dragon in my count. I was being optimistic. There are many on my list that people would dismiss out of hand for various reasons (Wolf's Dragoons exclusive, ultra rare, redundant, etc.).

I don't necessarily think rarity should be a reason not to include it. We the players are supposed to represent the exception in the MWO universe not the rule (cause we are special and stuff).

If we were really going on rarity we shouldn't be driving anything other than the unseen. They are after all the common mechs of the day (an odd decision of FASA to make all the licensed artwork the common mechs, and to create unique artwork for mechs that no one really uses.)



While I agree with the premise of "Cream of the Crop" I do wish there was a way to limit some mechs, particularly based on Weight and Availability, like having both factor into a BV type system for drops (at least in 8 man) (aka we can own whatever we want, and use it, but to keep drops from being 8 Atlases (or worse, Annihilators) since Assault Mechs are supposed to be very rare, and it is just annoying to see so many, as one example.

That way things might be a little more balanced, Medium Mechs might see more use, and there might be a change in the Meta due to it.

Basically, have "tiers" we can choose to drop in where groups are assigned via total BV settings, or such, so that teams that want to actually play balanced, fluff correct type units can, and so the MinMax Warriors can still have their "fun" (though how Poptarting and cookie cutter builds are fun, I have never discerned)

#3547 Belorion

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 07:08 AM

With the Black Knight they could just add various other hard points with different locations and what not.

Actually they COULD do the same thing for single variant and dual variant chassis with the explanation that different production plants have slight variations that still conform to the variant, but have the capacity to be modified in different ways.

#3548 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 07:25 AM

View PostButane9000, on 15 May 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:


You must really hate that thing.



I still don't think the DV-6Md would make it. It doesn't even have a rule set or introduction date like the others.

The listing in the "Era Report 2750" and Sarna.Net list it as XL engine and LRM15s w/3 total tons of ammo, CASE and 12 SHS. Standard Rules, nothing special. If they can't figure out how to do the Mods, they got no business running a Mechwarrior Game (especially since most supposedly were / are long time player Btech Devs).

XL engine frees up 7.5 tons
Each LRM rack adds 2 tons (total of 4)
Ammo +1 ton (5)
Heat Sinks 12 (+2 for 7 tons)
CASE (.5 tons for 7.5 tons)

and problem solved. Heck, half the variants of Mechs either have no intro dates, or contradictory ones (the joy of FASA copy editing), so the Intro date is hardly important.

I mean for consistency, we have most "SLDF" Tech listed as some kind of latter day stuff, yet the
- XL Engine was in 2589,
- CASE in 2476 (100 years before there WAS a Star League and a whopping 30 years after the creation of the FIRST Mech. :( )
- EndoSteel, 2487 (40 years after the Mackie)
- Pulse Lasers, 2609
etc.

The First Succession War wasn't til 2787..... yet these are all "rare tech, mostly not possessed by the Great Houses" for 300 years, but it took the Lyran Commonwealth 24 years from then to design their SECOND in-house Mech, the Commando?

I love the game, but the discrepancies are ...... rather dizzying.

#3549 Lonestar1771

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 07:43 AM

one week left for them to announce the Zeus!!™

#3550 Belorion

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 07:46 AM

I think many of their discrepancies were from creating a lot of detail in the TRO's and Books with a lot of freedom given to the author without some sort of master plan, then trying to mash it all together.

Edited by Belorion, 15 May 2013 - 07:46 AM.


#3551 Butane9000

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 07:56 AM

View PostLonestar1771, on 15 May 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

one week left for them to announce the Zeus!!™


I think you're forgetting about the
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#3552 SgtMagor

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:21 AM

Black Knight, Zeus, Banshee(for sure), but I really want my Buzzard Posted Image

#3553 Butane9000

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:39 AM

View PostSgtMagor, on 15 May 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

Black Knight, Zeus, Banshee(for sure), but I really want my Buzzard Posted Image


I don't know what that is.

#3554 Dyson Ring

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:45 AM

View PostButane9000, on 15 May 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:


I don't know what that is.


It's the ALB-3U Albatross.

#3555 Odanan

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:49 AM

Albatross.. now that's a mech immune to head punches.

#3556 Phoenix Branson

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:50 AM

Will we find out what Battlemech is behind the Atlas today?

Posted Image

#3557 Odanan

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:52 AM

View PostMaverick01, on 15 May 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

Will we find out what Battlemech is behind the Atlas today?


Next Wednesday.

#3558 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:18 AM

View PostLonestar1771, on 15 May 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

one week left for them to announce the Zeus!!™



I fear your hatred and loathing of the game will continue after the announcement of the Victor.

View PostBelorion, on 15 May 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

I think many of their discrepancies were from creating a lot of detail in the TRO's and Books with a lot of freedom given to the author without some sort of master plan, then trying to mash it all together.



Very true. And MOST were in the glorious shoebox FASA days, where fact checking and such seemed non-existent. That said, more than the egregious technical details on Mechs, I would dearly love to see CGL make it a point to RetCon what is needed to make a cohesive and intelligible timeline.

#3559 Butane9000

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:19 AM

View PostThontor, on 15 May 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

Don't get your hopes up. Next week is much more likely.


I know it's next Wednesday. Again a dev told me. I just don't want to give his name and get him in trouble.

#3560 Sennin

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 10:37 AM

The next 'Mech to be announced will likely prompt the following reactions from me...

Banshee = "I told you so!"
Victor = Pleasantly surprised.
Zeus = Meh...another one of "those" 'mechs.
Devastator = Insert "Shut up and take my money!" Meme.
King Crab = Maniacal laughter.
Annihilator = Die laughing...





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