20517 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Butane9000, on 17 May 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

I still say if we get 3 of each weight class these would be the three I want in each:

Lights - Firefly, Hermes, Firestarter

Mediums - Sentinel, Vindicator, Clint/Kintaro (most wanted/secondary choice)

Heavies - Guillotine, Quickdraw, Exterminator/Grasshopper (most wanted/secondary choice)

Assaults - Banshee, Zeus, Cyclops, King Crab/Shogun (I think the KC and Shogun would look interesting in-game, and I put 4 because we know were getting a yet unannounced assault)

---------------------------------------------


Yes I know a lot of them are just about seeing what Alex could do with a visual overhaul. But isn't that one of the major points of this thread?

Yeah, some of them might be visually interesting, but I must say, most would be horrible in actual game-play or redundant.

Firefly? 86 kph (stock) Light mechs, with no lagshield?
Hermes? No really "variations" to the variants. But the speed would be fun.
Firestarter? I'd buy that for a dollar.

Sentinel? Cicada-3M with a single missile point added. Can't say I would care either way.
Vindicator? Slow, but otherwise a solid chassis (and we do have a lot of slow)
Clint? We're talking IS MEchs, IIC ain't gonna show for quite some time I would guess.
Kintaro: Brings nothing that the Trebuchet doesn't already bring.

Quickdraw? Could prove interesting. Decent speed and mix of 4 energy and 2-3 missile points stock.
Guillotine? See Clint. Otherwise, it's a Cat-3D with missile instead of ballistics.
Exterminator? Fast.... but what 5 energy hardpoints, and 1 missile? Sounds a bit like the Dragon
Grasshopper? Not unlike the Guillotine, tbh, save teh missile point is in the head.

Zeus? Boring weapon loadout (I can't believe I said that as a Steiner)
Banshee? Atlas Jr. Only selling point, is the 95 tonner thing, tbh.
King Crab? Faction limited, but I would not complain.
Shogun? "Humanoid" Stalker with JJ. Cool.. but essentially extinct save teh Dragoons, and they only had two left by 3068. Never existed in great numbers before that.

Odanan, on 18 May 2013 - 02:51 AM, said:

What, no love for the Triple-Gauss Victor?

and Battlemech 20 is........

[Adridos]

When you're so confident of Victor, have you seen it's step-child drawn by FD in the TRO:3145 CC?

[Odanan]

For 2 more mechs of each category:

Light:
- UrbanMech (because people want it)
- Firestarter (because it is the best light brawler)

Medium:
- Clint (because we need a very agile medium)
- Dervish (because it is 55 tons - and I find it more versatile than the Kintaro)

Heavy:
- Guillotine (similar to the Grasshopper, but better option)
- No idea. Not the Quickdraw, which is just another non-creative laser-boat, with almost no variation between variants. Idem for the Black Knight. And I don't know if the Exterminator has enough variants, but it would be a good candidate for a heavy mech with ECM. Another option would be the uncommon Lancelot (though it is generally another laser-boat).

Assault: (including the #5 assault here)
- Banshee (iconic, 95 tonner, kind of unique loadouts. A good upper class assault that complement, but not overshadow, the Atlas)
- Victor (very agile for its weight. Best ballistics assault, not considering Mauler and Annihilator).
- Cyclops (iconic, could look good in the Iglesias' hands, very electronics oriented - most likely with ECM variants)
(Zeus would be fine too, but it is somewhat similar to the Orion and I think the Victor is a much more interesting 80 tonner)

[Bishop Steiner]

Adridos, on 18 May 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

When you're so confident of Victor, have you seen it's step-child drawn by FD in the TRO:3145 CC?

link?

[Odanan]

Bishop Steiner, you must be a very iconoclast Lyran to turn down both the Zeus and the Banshee.

PS: reason for adding the Banshee to the game: BNC-3S (a mech that would make Atlases cry).

Bishop Steiner, on 18 May 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:

and Battlemech 20 is........

[Victor image here]

More like #6 assault (#24 mech).

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 18 May 2013 - 03:14 AM, said:

For 2 more mechs of each category:

Light:
- UrbanMech (because people want it)
- Firestarter (because it is the best light brawler)

Medium:
- Clint (because we need a very agile medium)
- Dervish (because it is 55 tons - and I find it more versatile than the Kintaro)

Heavy:
- Guillotine (similar to the Grasshopper, but better option)
- No idea. Not the Quickdraw, which is just another non-creative laser-boat, with almost no variation between variants. Idem for the Black Knight. And I don't know if the Exterminator has enough variants, but it would be a good candidate for a heavy mech with ECM. Another option would be the uncommon Lancelot (though it is generally another laser-boat).

Assault: (including the #5 assault here)
- Banshee (iconic, 95 tonner, kind of unique loadouts. A good upper class assault that complement, but not overshadow, the Atlas)
- Victor (very agile for its weight. Best ballistics assault, not considering Mauler and Annihilator).
- Cyclops (iconic, could look good in the Iglesias' hands, very electronics oriented - most likely with ECM variants)
(Zeus would be fine too, but it is somewhat similar to the Orion and I think the Victor is a much more interesting 80 tonner)

Agree on the Lights. But think we could also add the Mongoose


And the Vulcan is as agile, and more interesting (IMO) than the Clint (which is also an essentially extinct mech, produced by no one in hundreds of years) and the Assassin is MORE agile. Totally agree with the Dervish.

Heavies are the category that seems to dry up on truly interesting designs fastest. Unseen issues and all. Mediums are similar boat.

And pretty much agree on the Assaults, although, I have "saved" Alex the Cyclops trouble.....


nope.. no shameless self promotion here......

Odanan, on 18 May 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

Bishop Steiner, you must be a very iconoclast Lyran to turn down both the Zeus and the Banshee.

PS: reason for adding the Banshee to the game: BNC-3S (a mech that would make Atlases cry).



More like #6 assault (#24 mech).

A decade as a Rabid Fox might have colored my thinking.... and the absolute idiocy of Nondi Steiner.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 18 May 2013 - 03:27 AM.

[Odanan]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 May 2013 - 03:28 AM, said:

The Mongoose is just another silly laser-boat.
Now that Dervish of yours... it is the best I ever saw. Very, very MWO worthy.

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 18 May 2013 - 03:33 AM, said:

The Mongoose is just another silly laser-boat.
Now that Dervish of yours... it is the best I ever saw. Very, very MWO worthy.

firstly, tyvm on the Dervish

and, the Mongoose is a DeathSnail on Steroids with BAP standard.

The Mon-67Db is a laser boat with XL, DHS and a ER Large stock, the MON-68 drops the BAP for an SRM2 making it a little more versatile (yay missiles!). TBH, the Firestarter, is essentially just another LaserBoat (sorry 2 ballistics in a Light don't m,ake me warm and fuzzy.. at least while MGs are worthless).

And... what's wrong with laser boats?

[Adridos]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 May 2013 - 03:20 AM, said:

link?

Yep, it's small, but that's because of copyrights and other things that I really don't want to break....
BTW, it's called Lu Wei Bing.

[Der BruzZzler von Wiesndoof]

Yep, it's definitely too small, but it's big enough to see a real bad a** Victor!

[Adridos]

The Birdeater, on 18 May 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

...real bad a** Victor!

You're not correct, my friend :

Adridos, on 18 May 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

BTW, it's called Lu Wei Bing.

Edited by Adridos, 18 May 2013 - 06:55 AM.

[Odanan]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 May 2013 - 03:41 AM, said:

And... what's wrong with laser boats?

Medium Lasers are the most OP weapon in the TT. They should generate more heat and/or weight at least 2 tons to be par with other weapons.
Of course, they nerfed the Medium and Small Lasers in MWO, but "group fire" still gives an edge for mechs with tons of small lasers, over mechs with mixed weapons. If there was only "chain fire" in MWO (like in TT), things would be different.

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 18 May 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

Medium Lasers are the most OP weapon in the TT. They should generate more heat and/or weight at least 2 tons to be par with other weapons.
Of course, they nerfed the Medium and Small Lasers in MWO, but "group fire" still gives an edge for mechs with tons of small lasers, over mechs with mixed weapons. If there was only "chain fire" in MWO (like in TT), things would be different.

Honestly never found them that OP. elseways everyone would run Komodos and Blackhawks. Death of a 1000 paper cuts might sound good damage wise (and Medium Lasers were the efficiency king, especially Clan ER versions), but focusing 10, 15 or 20 damage all in one spot, one shot, vs doing twice as much damage all over the place, seems a good trade off to me.

[Odanan]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 May 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

Honestly never found them that OP. elseways everyone would run Komodos and Blackhawks. Death of a 1000 paper cuts might sound good damage wise (and Medium Lasers were the efficiency king, especially Clan ER versions), but focusing 10, 15 or 20 damage all in one spot, one shot, vs doing twice as much damage all over the place, seems a good trade off to me.

1 ton! 1 critical! No worry about ammo, you can put them all over the mech.
10 medium lasers in a fast, jumping mech are devastating (and you will only need 5 extra DHS).
And no, the Clan ER ML is not as good.

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 18 May 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

1 ton! 1 critical! No worry about ammo, you can put them all over the mech.
10 medium lasers in a fast, jumping mech are devastating (and you will only need 5 extra DHS).
And no, the Clan ER ML is not as good.

Clan ER Medium Laser..... 1 ton, 1 Crit. Range: 15. HEat:5. Damage: 7
IS LArge LAser.................. 5 tons, 2 crits. Range 15. Heat:8. Damage: 8

Yeah... can't agree. The Clan ER Medium essentially gives you the range and firepower of a Large Laser, for 4 tons, 1 crit, and 3 heat less.

Sure, boating 10 of them adds 20 more heat over the IS version. But to do (essentially) the same damage you only need & Clan lasers (49 dmg vs 50 for 10 IS). The IS generate 30 heat, the Clan, 35. Then again they also hit 166% the range of the IS, and saved you 3 tons that you can devote to DHS, and actually end up 1 pt LESS heat. And because each clan laser does more damage, you have a greater chance to concentrate damage and core components.

If that ain't the most OP, efficient, whatever weapon in the game, I am playing the wrong game.

[Sennin]

Odanan, on 18 May 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

And no, the Clan ER ML is not as good.

Clan ER Mediums are 5 heat and 7 damage at 450 meters for 1 ton and 1 crit. This is the pinnacle of weapon efficiency on the battlefield. In MWO, Standard Inner Sphere Large Lasers have the same range but cost 5 tons, 2 critical spaces, 7 heat and only achieve 9 damage. In table top it's 8 heat and only 8 damage! Regardless, that means for 5 tons I can achieve 35 damage for the cost of 1 Standard Large Laser! No offense Odanan but I fail to understand your reasoning.

[Colddawg]

whoever said they're limiting themselves to a certain number of 'Mechs...

From Ask The Devs 38

Quote

Miles Naismith: There are a number of mechs that are available by canon but don't have enough variants to master. Any chance we can get some C-Bill buyable custom variants to flesh them out?
A: Right now we have so many BattleMechs to choose from with plenty of variants. Once we exhaust that supply, we can explore ways to bring those Mechs into the fold.

[Odanan]

Sennin, on 18 May 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

Clan ER Mediums are 5 heat and 7 damage at 450 meters for 1 ton and 1 crit. This is the pinnacle of weapon efficiency on the battlefield. In MWO, Standard Inner Sphere Large Lasers have the same range but cost 5 tons, 2 critical spaces, 7 heat and only achieve 9 damage. In table top it's 8 heat and only 8 damage! Regardless, that means for 5 tons I can achieve 35 damage for the cost of 1 Standard Large Laser! No offense Odanan but I fail to understand your reasoning.

You should not compare it with the IS Large Large (which is crap).
Indeed, the Clan ER Medium Lasers do more damage and have better range, but they also generate almost the double of heat. Sure it is better, but almost all Clan weapons are great (except for all LB-X autocannons).

I say the IS Medium Laser is so good comparing with the other IS weapons.

Colddawg, on 18 May 2013 - 10:06 PM, said:

whoever said they're limiting themselves to a certain number of 'Mechs...

Quote

Right now (...)

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 19 May 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

You should not compare it with the IS Large Large (which is crap).
Indeed, the Clan ER Medium Lasers do more damage and have better range, but they also generate almost the double of heat. Sure it is better, but almost all Clan weapons are great (except for all LB-X autocannons).

I say the IS Medium Laser is so good comparing with the other IS weapons.

You call the large laser crap.

Yet tell me, if you were driving a mech, and could only mount 1 single weapon, the choice was between the large laser, and the medium. All other things (magically) stay the same. You would take 1 medium over 1 large? Doubtful. And the Clan Lasers essentially duplicates the Large for "less".

The IS Medium is easily abusable, but if it was further reduced, the problem is that many lights would become totally worthless in a fight. Imagine if the Medium Laser, for the sake of argument, became a "Small Laser with better range". Now your Commando-2d, Stinger, Locust, Wasp, etc, have trouble damaging each other significantly and no hope at all of taking out (even with dumb luck) a bigger mech. Buff the bigger weapons instead, and the little guys die pretty much instantly.

You talk about 10 Mediums with JJs... which is essentially a BlackHawk KU. Yet, given their druthers, most people would choose a mech like a Ryoken, with it's LRMs or Ultra AC/20, etc, despite their gross comparable inefficiency (well.. actually Clan Missiles are pretty crazy too, but as you said different argument) or an IS Mech with PPCs or an AC20, because those weapons have a potential for 1 shot kills. , vs splashing damage all over a mech. Heck, in TT they are far less effective than in MWO because you have them hitting 10 random spots. Drive a HBK-4P in this game and all 9 often are in the same location..... and still while dangerous aren't really OP/Game Breaking.

Chalk it up to the law of diminishing returns, bigger doesn't always mean the power level will scale exponentially. Apparently, in BT terms, the Medium Laser represents the "optimal" size to power point, and things like the Large Laser are simply grossly inefficient to achieve what they do.

25 years playing BT TT tournaments, I don't recall the tournament Meta turning to people running Medium Laser boats.

[Necroconvict]

Strum Wealh, on 12 May 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

From both a timeline-appropriateness and number-of-variants perspective (a minimum of three (3) are needed, to function correctly in MWO's XP/skill system), the only viable 55-ton options for now are the Dervish (with the DV-6M, DV-6Md (DV-6M + XL + bigger LRM launchers + CASE), and DV-7D) and the Kintaro (with the KTO-18, KTO-19, and KTO-20).

The Hoplite isn't really a viable choice, since "every Hoplite in the Inner Sphere was destroyed during the Amaris Crisis and the early Succession Wars" and the few that exist in the IS at this point in the timeline were brought in by the Wolf's Dragoons - and not only was it held exclusive to the Dragoons, but even they don't have the means to replace lost Hoplites or produce replacement parts for those they do have, as "after the mercenaries cut ties with the Clan Homeworlds in 3020, they also lost access to replacement Hoplites".

The main point against the Dervish is that all of the variants are fairly homogeneous - missile launchers in both arms and both side-torso locations, and an additional energy weapon in each arm.

• DV-6M (basic variant)
  
• DV-6Md (non-Royal Star League era variant that uses LosTech and upgrades the LRM-10s to LRM-15s (with 3 tons of ammo); all required LosTech - XL Engine and CASE - has been rediscovered)
  
• DV-7D (available in 3047; uses Endo Steel internal structure, Ferro Fibrous armor, CASE, and DHS; upgrades the SRM-2s to Streak SRM-2s (with one ton of ammo))

The DV-1S uses "primitive" tech" (which doesn't make a resurgence until the WoB J***d).


Hypothetically, PGI could differentiate the Dervish variants by:

• DV-6M: add one additional energy hardpoint to each side-arm (for a total of two energy hardpoints in each arm, one missile hardpoint in each arm, and one missile hardpoint in each side-torso)
  
• DV-6Md: add one additional missile hardpoint to each side-torso (for a total of one energy hardpoint in each arm, one missile hardpoint in each arm, and two missile hardpoints in each side-torso)
  
• DV-7D: add one additional missile hardpoint to each arm (for a total of one energy hardpoint in each arm, two missile hardpoints in each arm, and one missile hardpoint in each side-torso)

As described, each Dervish variant would have a total of 8 hardpoints, with one (DV-6M) being more energy-heavy, one (DV-6Md) focusing on missiles mounted in the slower-tracking but better-armored (and more spacious, given the lack of actuators) torso, and one (DV-7D) focusing on missiles mounted in the faster-tracking but more-vulnerable (and less spacious, given the presence of the actuators) arms.


Thoughts?


EDIT: fixed links to go to the correct 'Mechs...

I think it looks like 2 potential mechs there, as well as the Kintaro that you didn't lay out, but it is already laid out pretty well on its own. so I see a total of 3 55 ton mechs that could be added to the list of future mechs.