20517 replies to this topic

[Odanan]

Even if the Black Knight is a fan favorite, I can't see how it will be interesting if all its variants have the same number of energy-only hardpoints (they can inflate one hardpoint and move it to different locations on each variant, but that would still be boring).

Grasshopper and Guillotine are very similar (same tonnage, same speed, same jump jets, both are energy backed with some missiles), so I think one exclude the another. But to be honest, after the Quickdraw they are not that interesting (they are just slower, 10 tons heavier Quickdraws).

What, no UrbanMech?

[Odanan]

If I had to guess, this would be my list.

10 total IS mechs for each weight class (let's get wild):

Light weight now:
---------------
- 20 tons: Locust
- 25 tons: Commando
- 30 tons: Spider
- 35 tons: Raven
- 35 tons: Jenner
- 35 tons: Firestarter

more:
- 20 tons: Flea (just a slower and complicated Locust... I wouldn't mind if they pick another -any- mech instead)
- 30 tons: UrbanMech (yes, it is terribly slow, but hey, if people really want it...)
- 30 tons: Javelin
- 25 tons: Mongoose


Medium weight now:
---------------
- 40 tons: Cicada
- 45 tons: Blackjack
- 50 tons: Centurion
- 50 tons: Hunchback
- 50 tons: Trebuchet
- 55 tons: Kintaro
- 55 tons: Shadow Hawk
- 55 tons: Griffin

more:
- 55 tons: Wolverine - CONFIRMED
- 45 tons: Vindicator


Heavy weight now:
---------------
- 60 tons: Dragon
- 60 tons: Quickdraw
- 65 tons: Catapult
- 65 tons: JagerMech
- 65 tons: Thunderbolt
- 70 tons: Cataphract
- 75 tons: Orion

more:
- 60 tons: Lancelot
- 70 tons: Grasshopper (or Guillotine)
- 60 tons: Ostroc (!!!) - no options left (and I heard it's not an Unseen anymore.
EDIT: OK, instead the Ostroc, it could be the Black Knight (that gorgeous art convinced me).


Assault weight now:
---------------
- 80 tons: Awesome
- 80 tons: Victor
- 85 tons: Stalker
- 85 tons: Battlemaster
- 90 tons: Highlander
- 100 tons: Atlas

more:
- 95 tons: Banshee
- 90 tons: Mauler (strange choice but they said they are working on it, right? besides, finally an assault ballistics boat)
- 80 tons: Zeus (nothing very unique, but this is a too much important chassis to be left out)
- 90 tons: Cyclops (or King Crab, or Hatamoto, or Crocket, or Charger, I really don't care at this point)

Edited by Odanan, 27 February 2014 - 04:00 AM.

[Butane9000]

Here's my ideal IS list regardless of total weight class representation. based on what we have now, whats announced and what is speculation/wishful thinking:

Light: 14
20T: Locust, Flea, Thorn*
25T: Commando, Mongoose*
30T: Spider, Javelin*, Hermes*, Urbanmech*, Hussar*
35T: Jenner, Raven, Firestarter, Wolfhound*

Medium: 15
40T: Cicada, Sentinel*, Clint*, Whitworth*
45T: Blackjack, Vindicator*, Hatchetman*
50T: Hunchback, Centurion, Trebuchet, Crab*
55T: Kintaro, Shadowhawk, Griffin, Wolverine

Heavy: 13
60T: Dragon, Quickdraw, Lancelot*
65T: Catapult, Jagermech, Thunderbolt
70T: Cataphract, Guillotine*, Grasshopper*
75T: Orion, Marauder*, Black Knight*

Assault: 11
80T: Awesome, Victor, Zeus*
85T: Stalker, Battlemaster
90T: Highlander, Mauler*, Cyclops*
95T: Banshee*
100T: Atlas, King Crab*

Total IS Representation: 53 Chassis.

Clans?

Lights: 7
20T: Firemoth (Dasher)
25T: Mist Lynx (Koshi), Locust IIC
30T: Kit Fox (Uller), Arctic Cheetah
35T: Adder (Puma), Jenner IIC

Mediums: 9
40T: Viper (Dragonfly), Battle Cobra, Pouncer
45T: Ice Ferret, Shadow Cat
50T: Nova (Black Hawk), Huntsman (Nobori-nin)
55T: Stormcrow (Ryoken), Stooping Hawk

Heavies: 6
60T: Mad Dog (Vulture)
65T: Hellbringer (Loki), Ebon Jaguar (Cauldron Born), Crossbow
70T: Summoner (Thor)
75T: Timber Wolf (Mad Cat)

Assaults: 6
80T: Gargoyle (Man-O-War), Naga
85T: Warhawk (Masakari)
90T: Kingfisher
95T: Gladiator (Executioner)
100T: Dire Wolf (Daishi)

Total Clan representation: 28 Chassis.

* - IS units not officially announced. Over half the clan list hasn't been officially announced but based on MWO standard is what we are likely to see outside the guaranteed 16 Omnimechs.

Edited by Butane9000, 26 February 2014 - 06:17 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

still don't think weight class symmetry is the goal. having an equal number of each weight just to do it seems silly. If there are equal numbers of good designs, fine. But the number of each class of mech is not "equal" and since they are going to keep introducing mechs, keeping "symmetry" in numbers is going to be impossible.

Just counting the 3025/3050 and 2750 era mechs which entail the majority of what are available, minus the HG UNseen and Quads you have a breakdown approximately like:
19 Lights
27 Mediums
17 Heavies (HG Unseens hit the Heavies hard)
18 Assault.

And some of these are also unlikely do to faction rarity, Melee weapons,etc. But if we use the "Symmetrical" Methodology, until the 3055 offerings start becoming available, we should artificially limit IS mechs to 17 total per class, since that is all the Heavies available?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 26 February 2014 - 06:38 AM.

[Steinar Bergstol]

Odanan, on 26 February 2014 - 04:29 AM, said:

Even if the Black Knight is a fan favorite, I can't see how it will be interesting if all its variants have the same number of energy-only hardpoints (they can inflate one hardpoint and move it to different locations on each variant, but that would still be boring).

Grasshopper and Guillotine are very similar (same tonnage, same speed, same jump jets, both are energy backed with some missiles), so I think one exclude the another. But to be honest, after the Quickdraw they are not that interesting (they are just slower, 10 tons heavier Quickdraws).

What, no UrbanMech?

I'd like to see a Grasshopper. It's a classic and, heck, if memory serves Takashi Kurita used one to survive an assassination attempt (as in "crash the dropship he's on"... A little overkill I feel) in Heir to the Dragon. If the Grasshopper is good enough for the Coordinator of the Combine then it is good enough for me.

The Guillotine does nothing for me. Never liked its look at all.

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 26 February 2014 - 04:29 AM, said:

Even if the Black Knight is a fan favorite, I can't see how it will be interesting if all its variants have the same number of energy-only hardpoints (they can inflate one hardpoint and move it to different locations on each variant, but that would still be boring).

Grasshopper and Guillotine are very similar (same tonnage, same speed, same jump jets, both are energy backed with some missiles), so I think one exclude the another. But to be honest, after the Quickdraw they are not that interesting (they are just slower, 10 tons heavier Quickdraws).

What, no UrbanMech?

Interesting to you is not guaranteed interesting to me. That's the fallacy for "that mech just wouldn't be interesting". There are people who DO like laser boats, but if they had a choice between a HBK-4P, BJ-1X, AWS-8Q or a Black Knight, would pick the Black Knight. (Same speed as the two mediums, armor similar to the assault, and the same energy versatility, plus can run bigger engines than the 8Q, thus more internal DHS, etc).

So, it brings to the table more flexibility for that particular role. Whether you, or Strum or other players (like me even) care for it or not is far different from it being boring, nothing new to the table, pointless, etc.

[SgtMagor]

would a 6 er large laser, or 4 erppc Black Knight be boring, probably for the person using it and coring any mech who tries to even get close to this monster oh yea!

[FireSlade]

Butane9000, on 25 February 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:

I'd like to see the Banshee next month. I really only play my Awesomes when I play assault mechs. Though I have my Battlemasters and Highlanders neither of them really feels right or makes me want to play them. So I'm looking for a new assault to try since I don't care for the Atlas or Stalker and the Victors a shadow of what could have been.

You must not like JJs and XLs, since the Victor does a great job using those two items; same with Highlanders.

Bishop Steiner, on 26 February 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

Interesting to you is not guaranteed interesting to me. That's the fallacy for "that mech just wouldn't be interesting". There are people who DO like laser boats, but if they had a choice between a HBK-4P, BJ-1X, AWS-8Q or a Black Knight, would pick the Black Knight. (Same speed as the two mediums, armor similar to the assault, and the same energy versatility, plus can run bigger engines than the 8Q, thus more internal DHS, etc).

So, it brings to the table more flexibility for that particular role. Whether you, or Strum or other players (like me even) care for it or not is far different from it being boring, nothing new to the table, pointless, etc.

I have to agree with Bishop, (sorry Odanan) the Black Knight is still a viable mech even with the similar hardpoints between each variant. Remember the Quickdraw? That is still one of my favorite heavy mechs even though all the variants have very similar hardpoints. I just run different loadouts to shake things up. One has ERPPCs as the primary weapons, another ERLLs, and another is just a ML boat. I can see the Black Knight being treated the same.

Edited by FireSlade, 26 February 2014 - 10:27 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Butane9000, on 25 February 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:

Victors a shadow of what could have been.

...what should it have been? It's fast, agile, jumps, has good armor, the best hitboxes of ANY Assault, spreads and tanks damage like a boss, even with an XL, and can pack comparable firepower to an Atlas or HGN while going 20 kph faster than either.

Short of being buffed with Clan Tech, have trouble understanding what more it could do. It's a crap LRM boat, and only MEH as a Laser/PPC boat, obviously (aka, doesn't have multiple highmount energy points for hill and poptarting), but it is easily the most versatile Assault, and can easily outduel ANY other assault.

Different strokes for different folks (I happen to like the BLR too, though it is my second fave Assault), but can't see how it's a "shadow" of anything bro.

[Odanan]

SgtMagor, on 26 February 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

would a 6 er large laser, or 4 erppc Black Knight be boring, probably for the person using it and coring any mech who tries to even get close to this monster oh yea!

It would be boring because all variants would be the same, not because it is an energy boat.

But I guess I'm alone in that, so go on, guys...

Edited by Odanan, 26 February 2014 - 10:53 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 February 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

Interesting to you is not guaranteed interesting to me. That's the fallacy for "that mech just wouldn't be interesting". There are people who DO like laser boats, but if they had a choice between a HBK-4P, BJ-1X, AWS-8Q or a Black Knight, would pick the Black Knight. (Same speed as the two mediums, armor similar to the assault, and the same energy versatility, plus can run bigger engines than the 8Q, thus more internal DHS, etc).

So, it brings to the table more flexibility for that particular role. Whether you, or Strum or other players (like me even) care for it or not is far different from it being boring, nothing new to the table, pointless, etc.

In my defense, I made a case for the Black Knight on the basis of there being few alternatives in its weight bracket and that the variants could still be made sufficiently distinct regardless of the homogeneity of their minimum required hardpoints, rather than from any stance of favoritism.

[Odanan]

(EDIT because ninjaed by Strum again)

Yes, you did, Strum.

Edited by Odanan, 26 February 2014 - 11:09 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 26 February 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

It would be boring because all variants would be the same, not because it is an energy boat.

But I guess I'm alone in that, so go on, guys...

almost all variants of the Firestarter are the "same". Even simply having the hardpoint in different locations have given them immense stylistic flavor, allowing one to custom tailor them to your preferences. No reason at all that the Black Knight can't have similar play in ho heavy and where it's hard points are.

The point being that too often we let our opinion of what is fun or good blind us to whether or not it is or is not viable and useful.

Strum Wealh, on 26 February 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

In my defense, I made a case for the Black Knight on the basis of there being few alternatives in its weight bracket and that the variants could still be made sufficiently distinct regardless of the homogeneity of their minimum required hardpoints, rather than from any stance of favoritism.

actually, I was just throwing your name, Odanan and mine as those who can have rather strong opinions that might sometimes skew our judgement about "viability".

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 26 February 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

(EDIT because ninjaed by Strum again)

Yes, you did, Strum.

yup, he did. But through the magic of hardpoint inflation, you could easily have one very arm heavy and thus better for dealing with fast units, another with heavier torso mounts, thus able to use it's arms as shields and tank damage, etc.

That said, it ain't my first choice either, but it is far from my last. (I'd rather it than the Grasshopper, TBH, and probably the Guillotine, but I never liked either of those mechs, so I am biased) Lancelot and Flashman have the same issues as the BK, sadly, and the Champion is a funny shaped Dragon, essentially. Not a lot of "viable" heavy options out there, might as well go by looks ATM.

[Odanan]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 February 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

yup, he did. But through the magic of hardpoint inflation, you could easily have one very arm heavy and thus better for dealing with fast units, another with heavier torso mounts, thus able to use it's arms as shields and tank damage, etc.

That said, it ain't my first choice either, but it is far from my last. (I'd rather it than the Grasshopper, TBH, and probably the Guillotine, but I never liked either of those mechs, so I am biased) Lancelot and Flashman have the same issues as the BK, sadly, and the Champion is a funny shaped Dragon, essentially. Not a lot of "viable" heavy options out there, might as well go by looks ATM.

The Lancelot is fast as hell, has one jumping and one Ballistics-in-the-arms variant.

If only they added melee... now that would make things interesting (including for the Black Knight).

[SgtMagor]

Battle Axe or Dragoon!

[FireSlade]

SgtMagor, on 26 February 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

Battle Axe or Dragoon!

Love the designs but the second one needs a lot of work to look less gundamy and more like it belongs in Battletech.

[Strum Wealh]

SgtMagor, on 26 February 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

Battle Axe or Dragoon!

The Dragoon was purposefully rendered wholly extinct & unrecoverable, as it was the brainchild of Stefan Amaris; "Produced in limited numbers, only the elite of Amaris's regiments and a select few of Armaris' loyal chosen would receive the design and its variants. The design would see service in the Star League Civil War, often being salvaged by the Star League Defense Force. However, after the liberation of Terra, General Kerensky would order the purging of the design and the retooling of Krupp's two Dragoon production lines. The few remaining Dragoons in service elsewhere would become extinct before the 3rd Succession War."

The BattleAxe, the first home-grown AFFS BattleMech, fares only very slightly better; "The last BattleAxes, considered ancient, were destroyed in a desperate defense of Robinson against conventionally equipped Combat Vehicle formations during the Second Succession War."
However, Achernar BattleMechs revives the design during the WOB Jihad, when they start producing the BKX-8D variant in 3073 (along with likewise reviving the Hammerhands, the second original AFFS 'Mech, in 3071).
However, their general resemblance to the Warhammer may be enough to cause issue and keep them from seeing the light of day in MWO... (*insert curses upon Harmony Gold USA here*)

[FireSlade]

Strum Wealh, on 26 February 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

The Dragoon was purposefully rendered wholly extinct & unrecoverable, as it was the brainchild of Stefan Amaris; "Produced in limited numbers, only the elite of Amaris's regiments and a select few of Armaris' loyal chosen would receive the design and its variants. The design would see service in the Star League Civil War, often being salvaged by the Star League Defense Force. However, after the liberation of Terra, General Kerensky would order the purging of the design and the retooling of Krupp's two Dragoon production lines. The few remaining Dragoons in service elsewhere would become extinct before the 3rd Succession War."

The BattleAxe, the first home-grown AFFS BattleMech, fares only very slightly better; "The last BattleAxes, considered ancient, were destroyed in a desperate defense of Robinson against conventionally equipped Combat Vehicle formations during the Second Succession War."
However, Achernar BattleMechs revives the design during the WOB Jihad, when they start producing the BKX-8D variant in 3073 (along with likewise reviving the Hammerhands, the second original AFFS 'Mech, in 3071).
However, their general resemblance to the Warhammer may be enough to cause issue and keep them from seeing the light of day in MWO... (*insert curses upon Harmony Gold USA here*)

Both reasons has not quite stopped PGI yet with the later being the Jagermech (looks like a Rifleman).

[Butane9000]

FireSlade, on 26 February 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

You must not like JJs and XLs, since the Victor does a great job using those two items; same with Highlanders.

Bishop Steiner, on 26 February 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

...what should it have been? It's fast, agile, jumps, has good armor, the best hitboxes of ANY Assault, spreads and tanks damage like a boss, even with an XL, and can pack comparable firepower to an Atlas or HGN while going 20 kph faster than either.

Short of being buffed with Clan Tech, have trouble understanding what more it could do. It's a crap LRM boat, and only MEH as a Laser/PPC boat, obviously (aka, doesn't have multiple highmount energy points for hill and poptarting), but it is easily the most versatile Assault, and can easily outduel ANY other assault.

Different strokes for different folks (I happen to like the BLR too, though it is my second fave Assault), but can't see how it's a "shadow" of anything bro.

The Victor lacks it's requisite ballistic hard points. We had this discussion when it was announced and then released. It's vastly shy of what it could have been. Our very first true ballistic assault. Instead PGI pandered to the fear of AC40 without the XL weakness and opted to nerf the Victor.

Now everyone's losing their mind over the Mauler, a mech we know of that is heavy ballistics and even heavier weight wise then the Victor. It's asinine to be honest. Now I've seen Victors in the battlefield and they clearly perform, but personally with the way PGI implemented them and the ones I've played I just have no interest. If I need to jump in an assault I'll just keep my Highlanders.