20517 replies to this topic

[Strum Wealh]

Odanan, on 12 November 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

First Banshee. Then Cyclops. Then Zeus. Then Annihilator (too OP for the game, tough). Then King Crab. Then Hatamoto.
Of course I would trade all of them for a Mauler like that fan art...

• The Banshee is effectively the only IS 'Mech that can currently fill the 95-ton slot in the weight listing.
  
• The Cyclops thematically/symbolically fills the role of assault-class EWAR/C2 specialist, but the mechanics that allowed the Cyclops to do this in its stock configurations in BattleTech largely do not exist in MWO - negating a large part of the 'Mech's raison d'être and thus much of the impetus for its implementation.
  
• The Annihilator and the King Crab, for reasons previously discussed at length (some of which are currently included in this thread's opening post), seem unlikely to be slated for near-term implementation.
  
• The Zeus and the Hatamoto-Chi are nearly equally-iconic for their respective factions, and (as a result of the hardpoint restrictions arising from their stock layouts) fill very different niches despite being of the same mass.

Moreover, the overlap between the Hatamoto-Chi and the Awesome can be controlled through variant selection and hardpoint distribution (as well as differing twist and elevation limits for the torsos and arms), such that the two become competitors that are different from one another without either being strictly superior to the other.

[Phoenix Branson]

Strum Wealh, on 12 November 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

• The Banshee is effectively the only IS 'Mech that can currently fill the 95-ton slot in the weight listing.
  
• The Cyclops thematically/symbolically fills the role of assault-class EWAR/C2 specialist, but the mechanics that allowed the Cyclops to do this in its stock configurations in BattleTech largely do not exist in MWO - negating a large part of the 'Mech's raison d'être and thus much of the impetus for its implementation.
  
• The Annihilator and the King Crab, for reasons previously discussed at length (some of which are currently included in this thread's opening post), seem unlikely to be slated for near-term implementation.
  
• The Zeus and the Hatamoto-Chi are nearly equally-iconic for their respective factions, and (as a result of the hardpoint restrictions arising from their stock layouts) fill very different niches despite being of the same mass.

Moreover, the overlap between the Hatamoto-Chi and the Awesome can be controlled through variant selection and hardpoint distribution (as well as differing twist and elevation limits for the torsos and arms), such that the two become competitors that are different from one another without either being strictly superior to the other.

Well said!

[Butane9000]

Here are the option for next Light given the "Humanoid" clue (3+ variant available in 3050).

Thorn - 20 tons in itself plenty controversial as we already have the Locust & Flea. 5 total variants available.

Mongoose - 25 Tons would give the commando company. Interesting visuals. Variants mostly homogenous. Wouldn't call this mech controversial (unless factoring visuals). 6 total variants available.

Hermes - 30 tons to pair up with the Spider. 7 variants available and all VERY homogenous. Has a MASC & ECM variant. Unique visuals similar to the Mongoose.

Urbanmech - Iconic 30 tonner. Fan favorite. Will need to revise MWO's engine system significantly. Debatable usefulness. 3-4 variants available.

Javelin - 30 tonner. Strum sums it up nicely in his post on the previous page. 3 variants available.

Firestarter - 35 tons which is already filled by 2 mechs. 6 total variants. It does have ballistic hard points which make it more unique then most lights. It's been discussed plenty don't need to go further.

Panther - 35 tons (see above). Lists 3 variants but unsure if the 9R Tanaka variant is significantly different from the regular 9R. Notably slower combat light which would put it in the same position the Raven had at it's launch. Comes standard with PPC.

Wolfhound - 35 Tons (see Firestarter). Designed to counter the Panther. Again a slow light. Has 3 timeline variants all with similar production years and very homogenous.

Now what do I think?

My bet's on one of three. The Mongoose, Javelin or Hermes.

The Firestarter would just as good and I think it'd be interesting to see how the Ballistics work out. It'd also give us a ballistic/energy light since they won't give us Commando COM-1C and all we've got is the Raven RVN-4X.

Edited by Butane9000, 13 November 2013 - 08:53 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Butane9000, on 13 November 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

Here are the option for next Light given the "Humanoid" clue (3+ variant available in 3050).

Thorn - 20 tons in itself plenty controversial as we already have the Locust & Flea. 5 total variants available.

Mongoose - 25 Tons would give the commando company. Interesting visuals. Variants mostly homogenous. Wouldn't call this mech controversial (unless factoring visuals). 6 total variants available.

Hermes - 30 tons to pair up with the Spider. 7 variants available and all VERY homogenous. Has a MASC & ECM variant. Unique visuals similar to the Mongoose.

Urbanmech - Iconic 30 tonner. Fan favorite. Will need to revise MWO's engine system significantly. Debatable usefulness. 3-4 variants available.

Javelin - 30 tonner. Strum sums it up nicely in his post on the previous page. 3 variants available.

Firestarter - 35 tons which is already filled by 2 mechs. 6 total variants. It does have ballistic hard points which make it more unique then most lights. It's been discussed plenty don't need to go further.
Panther - 35 tons (see above). Lists 3 variants but unsure if the 9R Tanaka variant is significantly different from the regular 9R. Notably slower combat light which would put it in the same position the Raven had at it's launch. Comes standard with PPC.

Wolfhound - 35 Tons (see Firestarter). Designed to counter the Panther. Again a slow light. Has 3 timeline variants all with similar production years and very homogenous.

Now what do I think?

My bet's on one of three. The Mongoose, Javelin or Hermes.

The Firestarter would just be too good but I think it'd be interesting to see how the Ballistics work out. It'd also give us a ballistic/energy light since they won't give us Commando COM-1C and all we've got is the Raven RVN-X.

Could it aslo be that part of the Controversy is that they will just make the Urbanmech with a 100 engine? Hardly be the first time that the Urbie was represented that way.

Not saying they will, but that would indeed be controversial.

[Odanan]

Butane9000, on 13 November 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

Here are the option for next Light given the "Humanoid" clue (3+ variant available in 3050).

Thorn - 20 tons in itself plenty controversial as we already have the Locust & Flea. 5 total variants available.

Mongoose - 25 Tons would give the commando company. Interesting visuals. Variants mostly homogenous. Wouldn't call this mech controversial (unless factoring visuals). 6 total variants available.

Hermes - 30 tons to pair up with the Spider. 7 variants available and all VERY homogenous. Has a MASC & ECM variant. Unique visuals similar to the Mongoose.

Urbanmech - Iconic 30 tonner. Fan favorite. Will need to revise MWO's engine system significantly. Debatable usefulness. 3-4 variants available.

Javelin - 30 tonner. Strum sums it up nicely in his post on the previous page. 3 variants available.

Firestarter - 35 tons which is already filled by 2 mechs. 6 total variants. It does have ballistic hard points which make it more unique then most lights. It's been discussed plenty don't need to go further.

Panther - 35 tons (see above). Lists 3 variants but unsure if the 9R Tanaka variant is significantly different from the regular 9R. Notably slower combat light which would put it in the same position the Raven had at it's launch. Comes standard with PPC.

Wolfhound - 35 Tons (see Firestarter). Designed to counter the Panther. Again a slow light. Has 3 timeline variants all with similar production years and very homogenous.

Now what do I think?

My bet's on one of three. The Mongoose, Javelin or Hermes.

The Firestarter would just as good and I think it'd be interesting to see how the Ballistics work out. It'd also give us a ballistic/energy light since they won't give us Commando COM-1C and all we've got is the Raven RVN-4X.

1- I wouldn't call the Mongoose "humanoid".
2- the Panther is much slower than the Raven (64.8 km/h vs. 97.2 km/h).
3- Don't forget there is a Spider with ballistics.
4- Are there so many time-wise variants for the Thorn and Hermes?

PS: it will be the Firestarter.

[Scrawny Cowboy]

FireSlade, on 12 November 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

...
With ballistics the way they are currently; [sarcasm] yeah we really need an AC40, dual Gauss, 4 AC5s/UAC5s that can take all the downsides of the Jagermech and toss them out the window. [/sarcasm] Problem with ballistics at the moment is they pack too much punch, with high ROF, and pinpoint damage with weight, crit slots, and ammo being the downside. Hell an AC2 that weighs the same will almost do the same damage as a PPC in the same cool down and will out DPS it easily. Once PGI fixes the ballistics balance, I would love to have mechs like the Mauler and King Crab in MWO but if PGI adds them before then they will become the new meta and they will be the only mechs that you see (sort of like the Jagermech).

It wouldn't be the first time PGI capitalized with new mechs and hero mechs that favored current meta, like the Highlander and Victor.

[Bishop Steiner]

FireSlade, on 12 November 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

With looks it is different in that it uses chicken walker legs and since we will never get a Warhammer we may as well get a better Warhammer



With ballistics the way they are currently; [sarcasm] yeah we really need an AC40, dual Gauss, 4 AC5s/UAC5s that can take all the downsides of the Jagermech and toss them out the window. [/sarcasm] Problem with ballistics at the moment is they pack too much punch, with high ROF, and pinpoint damage with weight, crit slots, and ammo being the downside. Hell an AC2 that weighs the same will almost do the same damage as a PPC in the same cool down and will out DPS it easily. Once PGI fixes the ballistics balance, I would love to have mechs like the Mauler and King Crab in MWO but if PGI adds them before then they will become the new meta and they will be the only mechs that you see (sort of like the Jagermech).

A King Crab could easily be made with plenty of downsides of it's own. Doesn't need to be the squishiness of the Jager.

The King Crab for instance, would be SLOW. (As would the Annihilator. almost unusably slow in it's case). And it would be wide. We have already established through the ShadowHawk, that Tall is much less than issue than wide. Wide and slow is kiss of death, ala the Awesome.

Add into it simply programming it to have agility akin to the Stalker.

Plenty enough to balance having good armor.

[Odanan]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 November 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

A King Crab could easily be made with plenty of downsides of it's own. Doesn't need to be the squishiness of the Jager.

The King Crab for instance, would be SLOW. (As would the Annihilator. almost unusably slow in it's case). And it would be wide. We have already established through the ShadowHawk, that Tall is much less than issue than wide. Wide and slow is kiss of death, ala the Awesome.

Add into it simply programming it to have agility akin to the Stalker.

Plenty enough to balance having good armor.

Sure, King Crab wouldn't be OP (just two big ballistics). Annihilator, on the other hand...

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 13 November 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

Sure, King Crab wouldn't be OP (just two big ballistics). Annihilator, on the other hand...

what is the top speed of the Annihilator, again?

It will be able to run a 240 engine, TOPS, by the current engine capping. That's 42.8 kph. On a mech that at best will have the torso rotation profile of an Atlas, and the same terrain profile.

ALL it's mounts will be low, meaning not a very effective hill humper. And the feared 4 ballistics? Unless they are ac5s, will take up massive amounts of space. LB-Xs are 6 a piece. Every thing else that hits hard is as large or more. And they are heavy. There is a reason the thing only has 12.5 tons of armor stock. About the only upgrade that works is Endo, which saves you a massive 5 tons.... all of which would have to go to ammo in MWO.


The mech literally does not have the critical space, or spare tonnage to cover it's glaring inadequacies as is, let alone to upgrade it.

The annihilator realistically has a LOT of problems to overcome before it becomes the evil turret of death people are envisioning.

[Bishop Steiner]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 November 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

what is the top speed of the Annihilator, again?

It will be able to run a 240 engine, TOPS, by the current engine capping. That's 42.8 kph. On a mech that at best will have the torso rotation profile of an Atlas, and the same terrain profile.

ALL it's mounts will be low, meaning not a very effective hill humper. And the feared 4 ballistics? Unless they are ac5s, will take up massive amounts of space. LB-Xs are 6 a piece. Every thing else that hits hard is as large or more. And they are heavy. There is a reason the thing only has 12.5 tons of armor stock. About the only upgrade that works is Endo, which saves you a massive 5 tons.... all of which would have to go to ammo in MWO.


The mech literally does not have the critical space, or spare tonnage to cover it's glaring inadequacies as is, let alone to upgrade it.

The annihilator realistically has a LOT of problems to overcome before it becomes the evil turret of death people are envisioning.

in fact, it's too slow to use the LB-X effectively in MWO, and it can't carry the 3 ton per ac needed to last deep into matches as a primary weapon. It can't mount endo, or at best you can use 4 ac5. So it becomes what, a giant slow DPS target?

[Dawnstealer]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 September 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Have to second what Adridos said. And the same issues crop up with the Wolfhound. Aside form there not being enough canon variants at this time, what does it do that the Raven and Jenner don't totally outclass it in?

The Raven is just as fast, can carry just as much armor, and has a variety of hard points, whereas the Wolfhound has ....energy. And one version has JJs, another has ECM. The Jenner, can pack as much armor, has as many energy hardpoints AND missiles, jumps, and is faster.

In the current Mechlab implementation, they simply are outclassed. Which is why, despite the protests of the "Pros" I have always pushed for sized hardpoints and armor caps (allow up to 35-50% more armor than the stock version , with the cap still being the max the tonnage class can handle) similar to speed caps. Why would you play a relatively fragile Jagermech when you could drive a heavily armored Cataphract instead? Well, with sized Hardpoints, the Phract would have more armor, but much less potent weaponry probably. So one trades off, High endurance, or high firepower. It preserves roles, while allowing or reasonable customization, whereas now, everything kind of ends up in a min/maxed muddle, and as such, some units, like the Panther, Urbanmech and Wolfhound, are just flat outclassed.

Right now, with the degree of customization available, we actually have LESS viable chassis than we would if w had sized hardpoints.

This - never understood why they didn't limit both the type AND the size of the hardpoints. Otherwise, these things are basically omnimechs.

[Bishop Steiner]

well, back to happier? thoughts?

Let's combine the Clans AND the Next Light Mech?

My favorite was always the Myst Lynx. This is the Sierra variant I liked to run.

Designed explicitly for city fighting, it's BAP allows it to find any hidden units and infantry, the ECM allows it to jam any communications, while the 5 20mm vulcan guns can make short work of any infantry, armored or not. And those 4 ER Medium Lasers give it some serious punch against bigger targets. The high mount TAG is designed so that while hiding under it's ECM cover, it can lase enemy locations without exposing the mech or giving away it's position.

[FireSlade]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 November 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

A King Crab could easily be made with plenty of downsides of it's own. Doesn't need to be the squishiness of the Jager. The King Crab for instance, would be SLOW. (As would the Annihilator. almost unusably slow in it's case). And it would be wide. We have already established through the ShadowHawk, that Tall is much less than issue than wide. Wide and slow is kiss of death, ala the Awesome. Add into it simply programming it to have agility akin to the Stalker. Plenty enough to balance having good armor.

Bishop Steiner, on 13 November 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

what is the top speed of the Annihilator, again? It will be able to run a 240 engine, TOPS, by the current engine capping. That's 42.8 kph. On a mech that at best will have the torso rotation profile of an Atlas, and the same terrain profile. ALL it's mounts will be low, meaning not a very effective hill humper. And the feared 4 ballistics? Unless they are ac5s, will take up massive amounts of space. LB-Xs are 6 a piece. Every thing else that hits hard is as large or more. And they are heavy. There is a reason the thing only has 12.5 tons of armor stock. About the only upgrade that works is Endo, which saves you a massive 5 tons.... all of which would have to go to ammo in MWO. The mech literally does not have the critical space, or spare tonnage to cover it's glaring inadequacies as is, let alone to upgrade it. The annihilator realistically has a LOT of problems to overcome before it becomes the evil turret of death people are envisioning.

Bishop Steiner, on 13 November 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

in fact, it's too slow to use the LB-X effectively in MWO, and it can't carry the 3 ton per ac needed to last deep into matches as a primary weapon. It can't mount endo, or at best you can use 4 ac5. So it becomes what, a giant slow DPS target?

Yeah they have their drawbacks but so did the Jagermech when it came out and it is one of the most heavily used mechs. The Stalker’s agility never deterred people from putting 4-6PPCs in them and AC5/10s are better than PPCs so 4 of them fired at once will pretty much ruin anyone’s day so the lack of agility does not really matter unless they are alone against a light/medium mech. Plus the Awesome’s drawback is not really that it is really wide it is that its CT is really wide so that takes 90% of the damage causing it fail faster than the side torsos so it has less time on the field. Add to that it also is an energy boat and we all know that energy weapons cannot even come close to the amount of damage that a ballistic can dish out so that mean that with the reduced time that the Awesome was viable that they did little damage compared to the rest of the team. Even if the Annihilator lasts 3 min with only a minute of fighting they can do 960 points of damage so even if it is a glass cannon they still help the team. Just my prediction for any assault able to boat ballistics with ballistic weapons still acting the way they do now.

Bishop Steiner, on 13 November 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

well, back to happier? thoughts? Let's combine the Clans AND the Next Light Mech? My favorite was always the Myst Lynx. This is the Sierra variant I liked to run. Designed explicitly for city fighting, it's BAP allows it to find any hidden units and infantry, the ECM allows it to jam any communications, while the 5 20mm vulcan guns can make short work of any infantry, armored or not. And those 4 ER Medium Lasers give it some serious punch against bigger targets. The high mount TAG is designed so that while hiding under it's ECM cover, it can lase enemy locations without exposing the mech or giving away it's position.

If BAP and ECM are used on the same mech I believe that it cancels the ECM buff unless PGI makes the CECM even more effective than the IS ECM. Love the Myst Lynx though.

Edited by FireSlade, 13 November 2013 - 02:05 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

and since there is so much Javelin love on here (despite it's dubious quality as a mech)



A Bishop Steiner take on it.

Honestly, I feel the Javelin to be a boring humanoid design, so I am trying to make it a slightly less boring humanoid design.

[BarHaid]

I don't know Bishop; if the Javelin doesn't look like a fat man in a diaper, is it really a Javelin?

[FupDup]

BarHaid, on 13 November 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

I don't know Bishop; if the Javelin doesn't look like a fat man in a diaper, is it really a Javelin?

Sort of like how a Kintaro that doesn't look like a chimpanzee in a tutu isn't really a Kintaro?

[Odanan]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 November 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

and since there is so much Javelin love on here (despite it's dubious quality as a mech)

[awesomeness]

A Bishop Steiner take on it.

Honestly, I feel the Javelin to be a boring humanoid design, so I am trying to make it a slightly less boring humanoid design.

Bishop, you are on fire!

[Odanan]

(But I agree, even if amazing, that mech doesn't look much as a Javelin...)

BTW, Bishop? Did you ever did the Firestarter? We need moar next mech in here.

[DoktorVivi]

Firestarter would be cool. Kind of a big Commando. Need inferno rounds, though.

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 13 November 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

(But I agree, even if amazing, that mech doesn't look much as a Javelin...)

BTW, Bishop? Did you ever did the Firestarter? We need moar next mech in here.

I have some minor ones I did in the past, but truth to tell, they just were proportioning the stock art more sensibly. I have been tinkering with doing one, but I also have an UrbanMech III that has been occupying a lot of my time.