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Ultimate Mech Discussion Thread

BattleMech Balance

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#6881 stjobe

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 11:16 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 25 January 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

3025 was overall pretty well balanced, actually.

I so wish they'd made a 3025 game instead... Isn't there enough fighting going on in the Inner Sphere during the Succession Wars?

Then they could have had a big honking expansion a few years down the line with "Mechwarrior Online: The Clans!", and a few years after that "Mechwarrior Online: Word of Blake", and perhaps even "Mechwarrior Online: The Dark Ages".

But that all would depend on them getting "Mechwarrior Online: Succession Wars" up and running first...

#6882 John MatriX82

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 12:47 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 25 January 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

other text is not quoted because I already did so for Butane's big post :)

IDK, your idea is still better than what we have, but I think it is still a little too easy to take a mech totally outside the role it was conceived for. That is why I still tend to favor sized hardpoints. It has the same elegance in simplicity your proposal has, with less chance for abuse. I like the thought of your basic idea with the crits fixed to their locales more, but IDK if it would be too convoluted or "limiting" for people. Although listening to the cries for unlimited customization makes me think that most who feel that way realistically have no clue of which they speak anyhow.


Yeah "crit borrowing" bothered me as well; but suppose you introduce an hardpoint restriction system like a more "strict" sized hardpoint one.

I would have liked to have sized hardpoints from the beginning, but I know a lot of people who like the "inventive" of going around with a big gun at the expense of anything else. This system can allow you to do that, but not as easily as you do it now, suddendly making a 1 crit MG hardpoint capable of housing an AC 20.

I also have thought about "realism" in outfitting mechs, but the whole game, as I've been playing it from 2 years ago, is already quite far from that point of view, so that for me it's not an excuse.. I thought this system because I believe the "dynamic critical hardpoints" would be somewhat more accepted from the general public/community than fixed/sized hardpoints, if they would have to be introduced somewhat in the near future. Because they'd still allow some creativity/freedom as we're used to now that "fixed" hardpoints wouldn't.

It would still allow creativity but disallowing a lot of bad things as it is now. I wouldn't be buggered that much by 3PPCs HBK4Ps, running 15 DHSs and a nice XL engine with that hunch.. I have a reknown team-mate that usually runs a 4LL XL HBK 4P for the lulz, that would still be possible, both aren't necessarily op at all, because the thing blows up in the nick of time as soon as it gets under the enemy crosshairs/draw some attention. And they could all be housed in the hunch, so it wouldn't be so unrealistic (theoretically you'd still be using 3 of the 6 hardpoints in the hunch, borrowing "energetic pods" :P from the head and the arms).

Also, we could get some mechs that we'll never see, because PGI is picking variants among those that cannot be OP (think about the Victor that should have come with 1 ballistic slot in each side torso added to that in the arm), they didn't added it because "omg 3xGauss or 3xAC20!".

Another relatively simple way, would be that for each weapon you upgrade, you may get a crit penalty.. like that if you upgrade from mediums to large lasers (borrowing hardpoints around other parts of the mech), there's not too much hassle, but if you upgrade them furthermore (making a medium laser become a PPC -changing the magnitude order of a further tier-) then you lose 1 crit slot. So an HBK 4P could reach 2xPPC and 1 ML @ max, for a total of 7 crits since you've upgraded to PPCs from medium lasers.


Anyway, whatever system it will be, I just hope that PGI will realize that the current hardpoint system is bogus and ghost heat has to go in favor of sized hardpoints, so that each variant has a reason to exist and chassis could become more specialized, rather than seeing everywhere PPCs and AC5s, or PPCs and GRs as it used before or masses of PPCs/LLs or LRM 90 boats and so on.
But I'm still waiting (better: I was waiting, now I've lost any hope) to see SRMs get back their proper dmg and splash effects, and I think we're 7 months away from that patch, so I guess they won't never ever make it... I mean to reach some good "common sense" decisions..

#6883 stjobe

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 01:04 PM

Something that I'd like explore would be penalties for diverging from stock loadouts.

So even though it would be legal to rip out the MG from a side torso of a K2 and stick an AC/20 in there, it would come with some sort of penalty because the chassis isn't built for a 14 ton weapon there.

Perhaps a cooldown penalty, or a range penalty, or some other sort of penalty.

What do you guys think?

#6884 John MatriX82

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 01:37 PM

View Poststjobe, on 25 January 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Something that I'd like explore would be penalties for diverging from stock loadouts.

So even though it would be legal to rip out the MG from a side torso of a K2 and stick an AC/20 in there, it would come with some sort of penalty because the chassis isn't built for a 14 ton weapon there.

Perhaps a cooldown penalty, or a range penalty, or some other sort of penalty.

What do you guys think?


Probably it wouldn't be necessary when the hardpoint system is well thought. I'd say that everytime you don't use an hardpoint, also thought for other weapons systems (talking of the K2, when you don't address energy hardpoints in the arms and in the side torsoes) you "may" get some more/extra crit space for ballistics, but very strict. Like that for every unused hardpoint you can enlarge of 1 crit the ballistic "capability" of the mech.

However in this case it wouldn't be an issue, since most of K2 users don't even bother to use those arms and go around armorless in there so.. Something else may have to be thought, or keeping good what I said in my previous post, considering that everytime you "deviate" from weapons tiers you lose something.

9 energy critical slots coming from 9 hardpoints means medium or mpluse lasers @ max. You start putting a PPC inside, it doesn't equates 3 of those critical slots but 4, something like this maybe. Something like if you upgrade from tier I to tier II it's not a bad thing but from tier I to III it is.

Anyway I'd never cripple the main features/stats of the weapon for the purpose.. those must stay the same imho.

Edited by John MatriX82, 25 January 2014 - 01:38 PM.


#6885 CDLord HHGD

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 01:47 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 25 January 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

yeah, kinda why I champion them. I would love to make it as uber sim like as possible, but considering the gaping gaps in logic in the source game, especially post 3050, that is unlikely. (3025 was overall pretty well balanced, actually). So I embrace a mix of logical, but simple. Small and Large Hardpoints I just think do it easiest.

Yep Small and Large. Larges can equip small weapons, but smalls cannot equip large weapons. Here's the breakdown:

Small Hardpoints: TAG, SL, ML; MG, AC2, AC5; NARC, SRM2, SRM4, LRM5, LRM10.
Large Hardpoints: LL, PPC; AC10, AC20, Gauss; SRM6, LRM15, LRM20 + all small weapons.

This way, stock light mechs that do carry large weapons can remain unique on the battlefield. The lists above also include variants to the weapons such as pulse, er, streak, lbx, uac, etc...... Artemis has no effect on this.

#6886 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 01:59 PM

View Postcdlord, on 25 January 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

Yep Small and Large. Larges can equip small weapons, but smalls cannot equip large weapons. Here's the breakdown:

Small Hardpoints: TAG, SL, ML; MG, AC2, AC5; NARC, SRM2, SRM4, LRM5, LRM10.
Large Hardpoints: LL, PPC; AC10, AC20, Gauss; SRM6, LRM15, LRM20 + all small weapons.

This way, stock light mechs that do carry large weapons can remain unique on the battlefield. The lists above also include variants to the weapons such as pulse, er, streak, lbx, uac, etc...... Artemis has no effect on this.

exactly the break down I have been pushing since Closed Beta. Though I also would love to see a new category, called support, to stick things like TAG, BAP, AMS and ECM under. Keep ECM restricted, but I am so tired of TAG taking a place of a laser. Have even toyed with suggesting MG and Flamers as support items. (This would also cover AP pods and such in the future)

#6887 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 02:05 PM

View PostJohn MatriX82, on 25 January 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:


Probably it wouldn't be necessary when the hardpoint system is well thought. I'd say that everytime you don't use an hardpoint, also thought for other weapons systems (talking of the K2, when you don't address energy hardpoints in the arms and in the side torsoes) you "may" get some more/extra crit space for ballistics, but very strict. Like that for every unused hardpoint you can enlarge of 1 crit the ballistic "capability" of the mech.

However in this case it wouldn't be an issue, since most of K2 users don't even bother to use those arms and go around armorless in there so.. Something else may have to be thought, or keeping good what I said in my previous post, considering that everytime you "deviate" from weapons tiers you lose something.

9 energy critical slots coming from 9 hardpoints means medium or mpluse lasers @ max. You start putting a PPC inside, it doesn't equates 3 of those critical slots but 4, something like this maybe. Something like if you upgrade from tier I to tier II it's not a bad thing but from tier I to III it is.

Anyway I'd never cripple the main features/stats of the weapon for the purpose.. those must stay the same imho.

I always recommended that one could trade 2 small hardpoints for one large class. This would allow the "upgrade" of weapons still, but further reduce total available ones. But the hardpoints had to be available in the same location, which is where it differs from your crit idea.

Sadly, there is no one way to approach it that will make everyone happy or be totally unabusable, but as long as the abuse comes at a tradeoff, I can live with it.

#6888 DocBach

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 03:09 PM

You know what sucks? I have no want for the clan package because I don't like the clans...

Wish they had some inner sphere reinforcement package with tech readout 3050 mechs like the wolfhound, Zeus, Mauler....

#6889 Odanan

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 03:40 PM

View Postcdlord, on 25 January 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

Yep Small and Large. Larges can equip small weapons, but smalls cannot equip large weapons. Here's the breakdown:

Small Hardpoints: TAG, SL, ML; MG, AC2, AC5; NARC, SRM2, SRM4, LRM5, LRM10.
Large Hardpoints: LL, PPC; AC10, AC20, Gauss; SRM6, LRM15, LRM20 + all small weapons.

This way, stock light mechs that do carry large weapons can remain unique on the battlefield. The lists above also include variants to the weapons such as pulse, er, streak, lbx, uac, etc...... Artemis has no effect on this.

This this and this. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

View PostDocBach, on 25 January 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

You know what sucks? I have no want for the clan package because I don't like the clans...

Wish they had some inner sphere reinforcement package with tech readout 3050 mechs like the wolfhound, Zeus, Mauler....

And there is a lot of variants they didn't release (some just because they would look too similar to planned hero mechs), which is a shame.

#6890 BarHaid

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 04:23 PM

View Poststjobe, on 25 January 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Something that I'd like explore would be penalties for diverging from stock loadouts.

So even though it would be legal to rip out the MG from a side torso of a K2 and stick an AC/20 in there, it would come with some sort of penalty because the chassis isn't built for a 14 ton weapon there.

Perhaps a cooldown penalty, or a range penalty, or some other sort of penalty.

What do you guys think?
I've been meaning to do a Feature Suggestion along these lines for some time now. Just need to flesh it out a bit. My concept is assigning negative quirks the farther from stock you get. Make ghost heat a negative quirk, and only applicable when you mod out your mech, and then the Awesome and Swayback can boat their normal load out without any penalty. I'd even go so far as to add negative quirks to heat sink and endosteel upgrades! No penalty ferrofibe though; it's crappy enough as is. :)

#6891 Odanan

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 04:29 PM

View PostBarHaid, on 25 January 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

I've been meaning to do a Feature Suggestion along these lines for some time now. Just need to flesh it out a bit. My concept is assigning negative quirks the farther from stock you get. Make ghost heat a negative quirk, and only applicable when you mod out your mech, and then the Awesome and Swayback can boat their normal load out without any penalty. I'd even go so far as to add negative quirks to heat sink and endosteel upgrades! No penalty ferrofibe though; it's crappy enough as is. :)

Ghost heat only when you mod the stock weapons? Hmmm that's very interesting!

#6892 BarHaid

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 04:34 PM

Yeah, I was trying to think of a way to curb the fotm builds without resorting to sized hardpoints. Make it more palatable to PGI perhaps?

#6893 Butane9000

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 07:19 PM

Well if they go with their "sneak peaks" of the Hero mechs we should see what the next light is around Monday or Tuesday.

#6894 MonkeyDCecil

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 08:10 PM

View PostButane9000, on 25 January 2014 - 07:19 PM, said:

Well if they go with their "sneak peaks" of the Hero mechs we should see what the next light is around Monday or Tuesday.


Hahahahahahhahahahhahahhahahhah

#6895 Butane9000

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 08:11 PM

View PostMonkeyDCecil, on 25 January 2014 - 08:10 PM, said:


Hahahahahahhahahahhahahhahahhah


Yea I know...

#6896 Jenkss

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 08:58 PM

View Postcdlord, on 25 January 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

Yep Small and Large. Larges can equip small weapons, but smalls cannot equip large weapons. Here's the breakdown:

Small Hardpoints: TAG, SL, ML; MG, AC2, AC5; NARC, SRM2, SRM4, LRM5, LRM10.
Large Hardpoints: LL, PPC; AC10, AC20, Gauss; SRM6, LRM15, LRM20 + all small weapons.

This way, stock light mechs that do carry large weapons can remain unique on the battlefield. The lists above also include variants to the weapons such as pulse, er, streak, lbx, uac, etc...... Artemis has no effect on this.


That is exactly what I want. I wish PGI would give us a reason why they aren't doing this.

I like it because its a simple, blanket solution that can apply to all mech and it can bring diversity back by having mechs that fill their intended roles from the lore.

I thought about 2 small hardpoints = 1 large. But I think that might remove a little of the variability and uniqueness of some mechs, the Panther for example.

Sure mechs wouldn't be as customizable as they are now. But really, if you want a mech then runs triple PPCs then go buy the Awesome.

Fights would be longer and more interesting. Scouting could come back, less fear of being instagibbed. So many possibilities.

The best part is that you wouldn't need special rules for each mech, oh A applies here but it doesn't apply to this mech, it has its own rules. Which is the main issue I see with giving penalties for diverging, or other ideas like that.

Please PGI.

#6897 stjobe

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 10:50 PM

View PostJenkss, on 25 January 2014 - 08:58 PM, said:

I wish PGI would give us a reason why they aren't doing this.

PGI never gives their reasons. And when they do, it's made-up baloney ("3-second Jenner", "6 MG Spider", "My kid couldn't play until 3PV").

View PostJenkss, on 25 January 2014 - 08:58 PM, said:

I thought about 2 small hardpoints = 1 large. But I think that might remove a little of the variability and uniqueness of some mechs, the Panther for example.

The Panther also suffers from the fact that the heat system invalidates SHS completely.

#6898 Jenkss

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 11:39 PM

View Poststjobe, on 25 January 2014 - 10:50 PM, said:

The Panther also suffers from the fact that the heat system invalidates SHS completely.

Why's that?

Just in the PPCs aren't heat efficient and SHS would struggle to manage it?

Why did they have to say it's definiely NOT the Panther.

I'd love the Panther...

#6899 stjobe

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Posted 26 January 2014 - 12:14 AM

View PostJenkss, on 25 January 2014 - 11:39 PM, said:

Just in the PPCs aren't heat efficient and SHS would struggle to manage it?

That's the obvious reason; they tripled firing rates while leaving heat dissipation as-is, meaning all weapons are three times as hot in MWO as in TT. The Panther would overheat in 35 seconds of firing its PPC; 20 seconds if also firing its SRM-4. And that's a 'mech that was heat-neutral in TT just firing its PPC.

There's also a few other things making the Panther a no-go design in MWO:

Doubled armour means the PPC isn't the very dangerous weapon it was in TT, and a single PPC + a single SRM-4 is woefully undergunned for something meant to provide fire support (I used to play with a Ghetto Panther PNT-10K, and it really lacks punch).

And finally, a 64 kph top speed means it'll be as easy to hit as an assault, but with a third of the armour of one. It'd be ridiculously easy to kill.

View PostJenkss, on 25 January 2014 - 11:39 PM, said:

I'd love the Panther...

As would I, and many others. We'll just have to keep dreaming until someone decides to make a proper BattleTech game; sometime after 2020 I guess, since that's how long PGI has the license.

#6900 Odanan

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Posted 26 January 2014 - 03:46 AM

View Poststjobe, on 25 January 2014 - 10:50 PM, said:

PGI never gives their reasons. And when they do, it's made-up baloney ("3-second Jenner", "6 MG Spider", "My kid couldn't play until 3PV").

Ouch!

Also: don't forget the "it's working as intended" and the "it's only Beta" (oh wait...).





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