20517 replies to this topic

[TheArisen]

CK16, on 11 May 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

Because once to Bambambambam stage you will walk tthorough mechs. It needs a jam chance other wise we get a machine gun but with alot larger damage and you just hold down the trigger till dead....not balanced at all o.O

True but if it doesn't have very much ammo per ton you wouldn't be able to hold it down for long.

Spin up + low ammo per ton would balance the RAC IMO.

[Juodas Varnas]

CK16, on 11 May 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

Because once to Bambambambam stage you will walk tthorough mechs. It needs a jam chance other wise we get a machine gun but with alot larger damage and you just hold down the trigger till dead....not balanced at all o.O

The faster bambambambam the more heatheatheatheatheat it makes.

[CK16]

Yes, but it reminds me of the Autoloader in WOT very high burst damage, they have a reload compared to running out of ammo but one RAC armed mech could wreck atleast 1 mech on that short span, something very frustrating to happen in WOT if you take a clip and still living you ate very messed up rest of the match.

Edited by CK16, 11 May 2016 - 08:52 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

CK16, on 11 May 2016 - 07:23 AM, said:

You got an un healthy obsession with killing infantry Bishop o.O poor guys already have it rough!

Eh, on holding out to long on future tech. As I said before I view it as a true opportunity to fix current broke (good or bad) weapons and rebalance them to the new stuff.

- IS UAC's rebalanced to more like Clans (aka bursty)
- C-LBX/AC fixed for single shots.
- LBX/C-LBX increased crit chance and slighty narrower spread
- IS regular lasers give better heat values, but slightly reduced range.
- LRM/C-LRM 10/15/20 reduced spread

These a few things that would make current weapons have more flavor imo and not be obsoleted by future tech.
Making normal lasers the heat efficient system but no range would give them value compared to ER lasers for the IS that would be hotter but act like the Clan ER's. Many weapon systems not mentioned are in a good place IMO balance wise (besides a few over quirked mechs making them seem really broken)

Also this game should be able to ammo swap, if Armored Warfare can do it with multiple weapon armed vehicles (mainly AFV's) PGI should be able to get it right for the LBX and sometime in the future ATM's.

Idk I see adding future tech ad an opportunity to balance the game more if done right, not letting all hell break loose.

the problem I see, aside from what Metus already mentioned? Is at what point has PGI shown a remote capability to balance what they already have? They couldn't before star league tech was added (and 3025 tech was pretty well balanced by nature), they sure couldn't once star league tech was added, they definitely can't with clan tech, and quirks just made it all worse.

The problem is that Russ and Paul often don't even seem to comprehend what is wrong with existing tech balance (and no, future tech doesn't "balance" anything, it just further exacerbates power creep and obsoletes a whole bunch more stuff) let alone wearing rose colored blinders thinking that adding more will balance ANYTHING.

Power Creep and the attendant TTK issues in this game have gone hand in hand since day one. The moment DHS and Gauss Rifles were added, the trip down the balance toilet bowl began.

TheArisen, on 11 May 2016 - 08:36 AM, said:

True but if it doesn't have very much ammo per ton you wouldn't be able to hold it down for long.

Spin up + low ammo per ton would balance the RAC IMO.

in a focus fired, ezmode aiming, low TTK game? Comps wont need much ammo to reduce the rest of the masses to rubble.

[Bishop Steiner]

CK16, on 11 May 2016 - 07:23 AM, said:

You got an un healthy obsession with killing infantry Bishop o.O poor guys already have it rough!

are you remotely familiar with the back story and capabilities of the Word of Blake's Manei Domini operatives?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Manei_Domini
During the Jihad they made the Elemental panic of the Clan Invasion seem like a day dream.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 May 2016 - 09:00 AM.

[CK16]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 May 2016 - 08:45 AM, said:

the problem I see, aside from what Metus already mentioned? Is at what point has PGI shown a remote capability to balance what they already have? They couldn't before star league tech was added (and 3025 tech was pretty well balanced by nature), they sure couldn't once star league tech was added, they definitely can't with clan tech, and quirks just made it all worse.

The problem is that Russ and Paul often don't even seem to comprehend what is wrong with existing tech balance (and no, future tech doesn't "balance" anything, it just further exacerbates power creep and obsoletes a whole bunch more stuff) let alone wearing rose colored blinders thinking that adding more will balance ANYTHING.

Power Creep and the attendant TTK issues in this game have gone hand in hand since day one. The moment DHS and Gauss Rifles were added, the trip down the balance toilet bowl began.


in a focus fired, ezmode aiming, low TTK game? Comps wont need much ammo to reduce the rest of the masses to rubble.

- Well yes of course if PGI went all lazy (that very well could happen...) new tech would obliterate some current stuff if they left some current tech exactly as is. Why I mentioned fixing current stuff either now or at implementation of new tech. Some stuff would be op as hell (IS UAC 20 with single shots....nope!). While others would be obsoleted even more (LBX).

I am I guess thinking more of how it should be done, thus almost wanting to write up how to balance and add in a more in depth post. To submit to PGI, but like they ever take our worthy ideas....but listen to stupid ones (dropping Clan Scout tonnage to 55......or locking Omnimech Armor values.... )....IDK but someone needs to get the ball rolling though, thinking about it and a well laid plan would be best, rather the rushing it.

- BINGO, look what Autoloader platoons do in WOT, who cares about long reload when you just dump your mag into 1 or 2 tanks and jist erase them from the field in seconds....relocate and reload, rinse repeat. It's very nasty in pugs and comp....It is a death squad and if they pick you out your dead at only getting maybe 2 shots off....

Edited by CK16, 11 May 2016 - 09:13 AM.

[FaithBombCRNA]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 May 2016 - 08:59 AM, said:

are you remotely familiar with the back story and capabilities of the Word of Blake's Manei Domini operatives?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Manei_Domini
During the Jihad they made the Elemental panic of the Clan Invasion seem like a day dream.

Except they were EXTREMELY rare. Given the POV system for much of the Jihad storyline, confirmation bias made them seem far more widespread than they actually were. Your unit got rolled? Must have been MD cybersoldiers. Your comms went down? Must have been MD cybersoldiers. Your office run out of toilet paper? Must have been MD cybersoldiers sabotaging the bathroom. Transmission on your car go out just as you finally paid it off? Must have been MD cybersoldiers working for your local car dealership.

[cazidin]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 May 2016 - 07:06 AM, said:

and the last page inspired me to create a "hell on earth" anti infantry mech


born in the fires of the Jihad, meant to drag Celestials from the sky and bathe Manei Domini in the cleansing fires of hell. (and lots of bullets, too)

Those Machine Guns would be super effective against Atlas backs too, right?

[Bishop Steiner]

FaithBombCRNA, on 11 May 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

Except they were EXTREMELY rare. Given the POV system for much of the Jihad storyline, confirmation bias made them seem far more widespread than they actually were. Your unit got rolled? Must have been MD cybersoldiers. Your comms went down? Must have been MD cybersoldiers. Your office run out of toilet paper? Must have been MD cybersoldiers sabotaging the bathroom. Transmission on your car go out just as you finally paid it off? Must have been MD cybersoldiers working for your local car dealership.

they weren't that super rare (15 shadow divisions composed partly to completely of them), and they were also backed by large numbers of WoBbie infantry and Power Armor. Thus, a Hunter Killer mech still makes a lot of sense.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 May 2016 - 10:09 AM.

[Odanan]

CK16, on 11 May 2016 - 07:23 AM, said:

Idk I see adding future tech ad an opportunity to balance the game more if done right, not letting all hell break loose.

OK, but PGI don't need to wait future tech to balance what we already have in the game.

Bishop Steiner, on 11 May 2016 - 06:43 AM, said:

also, a version for those who don't have the manliness to enjoy Metal.....

Nope, I prefer the manly version.

[CK16]

Odanan, on 11 May 2016 - 10:37 AM, said:

OK, but PGI don't need to wait future tech to balance what we already have in the game.

Yes, I know and it would be welcome, as it would settle complaints currently and hopefully with new tech (if the new tech is done right). I guess I am glass half full on all this, in hopes PGI gets thier arse in gear on it before all this, if not they really would need to at tech jump, other wise as pointed out bad bad bad juju is coming and balance goes right out the window.

Edited by CK16, 11 May 2016 - 10:56 AM.

[FaithBombCRNA]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 May 2016 - 10:07 AM, said:

they weren't that super rare (15 shadow divisions composed partly to completely of them), and they were also backed by large numbers of WoBbie infantry and Power Armor.

But that's not 15 divisions of power armor and super-quirked out MD. And not 15 divisions of the super, named, "ascended" types either, which are what we tend to associate with them.

Bishop Steiner, on 11 May 2016 - 10:07 AM, said:

Thus, a Hunter Killer mech still makes a lot of sense.

How'd that Snake work out?

[Bishop Steiner]

FaithBombCRNA, on 11 May 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

But that's not 15 divisions of power armor and super-quirked out MD. And not 15 divisions of the super, named, "ascended" types either, which are what we tend to associate with them.



How'd that Snake work out?

Snake was poorly designed. How'd the firestarter work out for centuries?

And actually the majority of those divisions were cyber psychos. Cyberpsychos without armor, cyberpsychos with, cyberpsychos in mechs, aerospace fighters, armored vehicles..... But most assuredly the majority were cyberpsychos. It's just that WoB was a lot more than just 15 shadow divisions

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 May 2016 - 12:24 PM.

[wanderer]

So, about that Dervish (no hellpage required):

The DV- another member of the ideal-tonnage 55-ton medium club, right down to the same engine ranges (as all of them start with a 275 rated one).

Stock, this is the most lightly armored of the lot, but packs a mix of missiles and medium lasers- LRM 10's in the torso, SRM-2's and a medium laser in each arm. Notably, it also doesn't have hands, giving it 9 crit spaces in each arm instead of the eight the IS 55-tonners all have otherwise. Dervishes are also fully jump-capable.

In MWO terms, the DV-6M would have 1E + 1M in each arm and 1M per side torso for a total of 2E/4M, putting it the same hardpoint load as machines like the Griffin- although with much better distribution, meaning a single lost arm won't remove it's energy loadout, nor a single destroyed side torso cripple it's missile complement.

It's drawback is that it's variants are almost identical in-timeline: The -6Md (Star League upgrade) would have almost identical hardpoints and trades into an XL engine with LRM-15's instead of 10s, plus a three-ton CASE-shielded (read: meaningless in MWO) ammo bin.

The -7D keeps it's standard engine, adds endo and ferro, and comes with DHS stock, slightly improving it's armor tonnage and swapping it's arm missile racks to Streak-2s instead of SRM-2s.

This hardpoint monotony makes the Dervish somewhat unappealing, as it's only real differences would be quirk related. In addition, it's small arm missile launchers would likely translate to small max tube counts, leaving it's torsos as the only real LRM option- though it could easily duplicate the 4x6 SRM builds common to medium missile brawlers.

[Metus regem]

wanderer, on 11 May 2016 - 02:09 PM, said:

So, about that Dervish (no hellpage required):

The DV- another member of the ideal-tonnage 55-ton medium club, right down to the same engine ranges (as all of them start with a 275 rated one).

Stock, this is the most lightly armored of the lot, but packs a mix of missiles and medium lasers- LRM 10's in the torso, SRM-2's and a medium laser in each arm. Notably, it also doesn't have hands, giving it 9 crit spaces in each arm instead of the eight the IS 55-tonners all have otherwise. Dervishes are also fully jump-capable.

In MWO terms, the DV-6M would have 1E + 1M in each arm and 1M per side torso for a total of 2E/4M, putting it the same hardpoint load as machines like the Griffin- although with much better distribution, meaning a single lost arm won't remove it's energy loadout, nor a single destroyed side torso cripple it's missile complement.

It's drawback is that it's variants are almost identical in-timeline: The -6Md (Star League upgrade) would have almost identical hardpoints and trades into an XL engine with LRM-15's instead of 10s, plus a three-ton CASE-shielded (read: meaningless in MWO) ammo bin.

The -7D keeps it's standard engine, adds endo and ferro, and comes with DHS stock, slightly improving it's armor tonnage and swapping it's arm missile racks to Streak-2s instead of SRM-2s.

This hardpoint monotony makes the Dervish somewhat unappealing, as it's only real differences would be quirk related. In addition, it's small arm missile launchers would likely translate to small max tube counts, leaving it's torsos as the only real LRM option- though it could easily duplicate the 4x6 SRM builds common to medium missile brawlers.

Not to nit-pick too much, but how do you spend 3t on CASE? At .5t each limited to LT/RT only I can see 1t spent on CASE, but not 3t....

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 11 May 2016 - 02:24 PM, said:

Not to nit-pick too much, but how do you spend 3t on CASE? At .5t each limited to LT/RT only I can see 1t spent on CASE, but not 3t....

the ammo bin is 3 tons, and shielded by case.

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 May 2016 - 02:39 PM, said:

the ammo bin is 3 tons, and shielded by case.

Thanks for the clarification.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 May 2016 - 02:39 PM, said:

the ammo bin is 3 tons, and shielded by case.

Just in CASE you need it!

You know...CASE...just in case....get it!

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 12 May 2016 - 02:36 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

MeiSooHaityu, on 12 May 2016 - 02:36 AM, said:

Just in CASE you need it!

You know...CASE...just in case....get it!

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 11 May 2016 - 03:28 PM, said:

Thanks for the clarification.

I am a master of clarity