20517 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Prosperity Park, on 26 August 2016 - 08:48 AM, said:

Yeah, I thought the dragoons didn't bring clan-unique Mechs... that would have blown their cover much worse than bringing just LosTech.

Well, they had specs to build omnis and such later, and their ships did have updated mechs and a few snafus (Annihilator, Imp, Shogun, etc) but actual original Clan Mechs, I believe you are correct. And even stuff like the Annihilator they left in mothballs with their warships in the deep periphery until their 09 supply run.

But with all the rectcons, you never know any more. After all, apparently the (originally stock) MAD-3R Marauder that the Bounty Hunter took from Kerensky is now a lostech treasure trove. *SMH*

Yes, retcons sometimes are needed, but I hate retcons "just because" that do nothing to actually benefit the story, and everything to destroy the backstory for those who played the game from the get go.

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 26 August 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

Depending on the source you read, they either had cutting edge clan tech stashed away on Outreach or not....

they didn't get Outreach til 3030 or so. After that, in the mid 3030s, they did start equipping Blackwell to update their stuff, and build Omnis, etc. But I don't recall any source material saying they actually had brought any such chassis with them, originally. But again, one never knows, depending on the whimsy of the frikking retcon.

Which is why I asked foor a source, so I could update my mental lexicon, if needed. ( I may loathe most of the retcons, but I'm not one of those grognards who rant and rave that the Clans are not canon, the Dragoons weren't originally Clan, etc.... because um, yeah, they were, and a version of the Clans were ALWAYS planned, hence the "King Arthur" departure of Keresnky, to be "summoned" at the Inner Sphere's time of greatest need, etc)

[Imperius]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 August 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

Yes, but the wave of Clan Mechs are only going to be IF (a very likely if) there is an expansion, which would probably be the third one. So aside from the Cyclops and Hawk, they've not exactly been catering to HBS the last half year or so.

Hence Impy's barb is deflected by facts (again)

Last time I checked HBS said there will be no clans in their game. Maybe in the sequel. As for my milking comment I'm not referring to the past 5 mechs. I bitched to the high heavens I was sick of the IS focus and dredging through the past. No clan heroes etc. then HBS announced their partnership and it became quite clear of why there was such a heavy focus.

You have already been milked and and I'm pretty sure the cyclops and this next is "fan favorite" which won't be the Uziel (though it had majority votes back in 2012-3 not sure it was a super old poll and we can't search back that far anymore.) The next IS mech will be some 3025 junk I'm sure.

Mechwarrior never has been really catered to the old tt purists. Hence why the "abomination" know as Mechassault came out. I pretty much like MWO for what it is gameplay wise. I'd rather they nerf all damage in half and increase the ammo count to 150% (since it's already %50 behind where it should be) then I'd increase the CT of the mechs L15%, M20%, H25%, A30 % and go back to 8 v 8. That would be a Tanky feeling longer time to kill. Remember the fun is in shooting things not watching meters drop. But hey we got GHOST HEAT 2.0 woot for balance.

Supposedly I'm supposed to have my faith restored in MWO at mechcon. Well if it's not the engine upgrade with announced PVE focus then my faith will indeed not be restored and I will cut my loses and ties with MWO.

[Odanan]

Only 2 more days for the Marauder IIC early adopters! New IS mech incoming!!!

Charger, Assassin, Crusader, Wasp... any of those will blow my mind.

[C E Dwyer]

FLG 01, on 25 August 2016 - 02:24 PM, said:

For me it's the Speed. I would love to have an 80 ton Mech with XL400.

Pretty Baby can carry if I remember correctly an xl400 and the Dragon Slayer also, both 80 toners 87.1 kph with speed tweak

[Requiemking]

Cathy, on 29 August 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

Pretty Baby can carry if I remember correctly an xl400 and the Dragon Slayer also, both 80 toners 87.1 kph with speed tweak

Yes, but the Charger(at least the original) is supposed to be over-engined and under-armed.

[C E Dwyer]

Kanil, on 26 August 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

Right, the Warhammer IICs that came with the Wolf's Dragoons, how could I forget.

My point was that if PGI is milking the HBS crowd as Imperius claims, then they're doing a pretty bad job of it -- none of their last 5 'mechs are going to be featured in the HBS game.

Well Russ said that it was time for clans because we'd had five in a row, then we got the Cyc, now supposed to be going back to alternates. The dead line for IS mechs in HBS while there has been no official word, must surely have passed by now, but there is DLC add on's that could be available later.

That said

This snob is far more likely to stay playing and supporting this game if they do finish the unseen and the 3025 mechs before a time jump, and the earlier the crusader arrives, if it ever does, the more likely it will be the good looking one with the high armed missile pods, and not the trash retcon one with the fat wrists

[FLG 01]

Cathy, on 29 August 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

Pretty Baby can carry if I remember correctly an xl400 and the Dragon Slayer also, both 80 toners 87.1 kph with speed tweak

That is true, but I prefer Mechs which are canonically supposed to be cavalry Mechs and canonically have the 400 rating over PGI invented non-canon (hero) variants.
On the IS side this means Charger and Spartan, unless we get new tech in MWO.

Requiemking, on 29 August 2016 - 01:03 PM, said:

Yes, but the Charger(at least the original) is supposed to be over-engined and under-armed.

Indeed. There is no way of making a viable 80 ton Mech with a STD 400. However with an XL engine, the armament becomes quite interesting, and in combination with the high speed it is no longer a joke Mech.
Still a very special Mech for a small niche, but not a joke.

Edited by FLG 01, 29 August 2016 - 01:33 PM.

[SMDMadCow]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 August 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

they didn't get Outreach til 3030 or so. After that, in the mid 3030s, they did start equipping Blackwell to update their stuff, and build Omnis, etc. But I don't recall any source material saying they actually had brought any such chassis with them, originally. But again, one never knows, depending on the whimsy of the frikking retcon.

Which is why I asked foor a source, so I could update my mental lexicon, if needed. ( I may loathe most of the retcons, but I'm not one of those grognards who rant and rave that the Clans are not canon, the Dragoons weren't originally Clan, etc.... because um, yeah, they were, and a version of the Clans were ALWAYS planned, hence the "King Arthur" departure of Keresnky, to be "summoned" at the Inner Sphere's time of greatest need, etc)

They brought Imps, Operation Klondike entry.

[Bishop Steiner]

SMDMadCow, on 29 August 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

They brought Imps, Operation Klondike entry.

And Shoguns and Annihilators.... none of which were clan tech, or even advanced tech.

[SMDMadCow]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 August 2016 - 05:49 PM, said:

And Shoguns and Annihilators.... none of which were clan tech, or even advanced tech.

According to the record sheets in OP Klondike, they were all Star League era tech - which would have been more advanced than what the IS had on hand at the time of the Dragoons mission. With the Imp being wholly manufactured by the nascent clans outside of the IS, and the Imp entry does state the ones the Dragoons took were downgraded. But there it is, the first clan made mech deployed to the IS; Shoguns and Annihilators were SLDF machines.
Page 174-175 in a book only about the clans in the Pentagon worlds.

Edited by SMDMadCow, 29 August 2016 - 06:11 PM.

[FLG 01]

To be perfectly fair... The Annihilator missed the Amaris War, and ComStar and the IS only knew it from blueprints; they did not know about actual production and deployment. They could not possibly know, because it was only build after the (first) Exodus (and just before the Second). Hence they were wondering how the Dragoons got this Mech. From their point of view, it was a SL design but not a SLDF Mech.
In case of the Imp however, which could not be found in the records at all, ComStar assumed it was a genuine WD-design, completely new like the Marauder II. It should be noted that the early use of Imps and Annis was restricted to downgraded intro-tech variants, but they attracted ComStar's attention all the same.

There was not really a retcon, because those Mechs were always known to be of post-SL, non-IS origin (I just looked that up in the 80ies WD sourcebook and the original TRO:3050 from 1990). Later books merely confirmed they originated from the SL-in-Exile respectively the Clans, and gave more details.

As far as Clan-Tech goes, the Dragoons did produce it on Outreach since the late 3040ies. That means they must have possessed the know-how by 3019, i.e. their last supply run to the Clans. I am not aware of any open use of Clan-Tech before 3051.

Edited by FLG 01, 29 August 2016 - 07:22 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

SMDMadCow, on 29 August 2016 - 06:09 PM, said:

According to the record sheets in OP Klondike, they were all Star League era tech - which would have been more advanced than what the IS had on hand at the time of the Dragoons mission. With the Imp being wholly manufactured by the nascent clans outside of the IS, and the Imp entry does state the ones the Dragoons took were downgraded. But there it is, the first clan made mech deployed to the IS; Shoguns and Annihilators were SLDF machines.
Page 174-175 in a book only about the clans in the Pentagon worlds.

Skip the retcon garbage and try reading the TRO in the back of the Wolfs Dragoons source book. The ones that we actually played. Not a shred of start league tech.

[SMDMadCow]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 August 2016 - 07:26 PM, said:

Skip the retcon garbage and try reading the TRO in the back of the Wolfs Dragoons source book. The ones that we actually played. Not a shred of start league tech.

That book is presented as an in-universe Comstar report. Comstar would have no knowledge of the true origins of the Dragoons or the Imp. Its not a retcon, its 'history' you didnt know about because it was from an IS only perspective.
Its a great detail about how BT publications are made from in-universe points of view, theres hardly any omniscient information source.

[FLG 01]

It is indeed very important to remember the in-universe PoV of the sourcebooks which is usually incomplete if not outright faulty, unlike the omniscient narration of the novels.

ComStar was able to figure out some of the mysteries regarding the Dragoons' Mechs, but not all of them. They knew there was some link to the very last days of the Star League: the Annihilator was based on late SL plans; and the Imp shared design features with other late SL-Mechs. (Plus, of course, the number of previously extinct SL-Mechs).
The reader of the WD sourcebook was left with clues pointing to a decidedly post-SL yet very advanced origin of these Mechs, as the Annihilator was never build by the SL and as the Imp was totally new. There were some red herrings too, like Marauder II which had nothing to do with the SL-in-Exile.
That is the nature of the in-universe PoV. Some conclusions are right, some are wrong. However even if not every single one of ComStar's conclusions was accurate, the data presented is in perfectly line with what later sourcebooks detail. In fact the origin of the Annihilator and the Imp could be deduced correctly, hailing from the SL-in-Exile and early Clans.

Keep in mind we are talking about FASA-time here, not later retcons. Some kind of Clan Invasion was always planned, and the Dragoons were always part of it – including their post-SL Mechs. That is some long-planned good world building imo.

Edited by FLG 01, 30 August 2016 - 07:59 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

SMDMadCow, on 30 August 2016 - 06:01 AM, said:

That book is presented as an in-universe Comstar report. Comstar would have no knowledge of the true origins of the Dragoons or the Imp. Its not a retcon, its 'history' you didnt know about because it was from an IS only perspective.
Its a great detail about how BT publications are made from in-universe points of view, there hardly any omniscient information source.

the book are the specs that the people who ACTUALLY played the scenarios live as they happened used. Just like when the actual real scenarios played with the bounty hunter were played he had a normal Marauder. The Specs given are not "Comstars take" but the actual tournament legal stats that those of us that were there before all the retcons used.

[SMDMadCow]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 August 2016 - 02:39 PM, said:

the book are the specs that the people who ACTUALLY played the scenarios live as they happened used. Just like when the actual real scenarios played with the bounty hunter were played he had a normal Marauder. The Specs given are not "Comstars take" but the actual tournament legal stats that those of us that were there before all the retcons used.

I already said the Imps were downgrades, and explained why its not a retcon. Its cool you got to play through those scenarios though. I would have loved to but my group of BT players went all gung ho for clan stuff to the point they were making all IIC versions of everything and just killed it for me.

[Bishop Steiner]

SMDMadCow, on 31 August 2016 - 05:55 AM, said:

I already said the Imps were downgrades, and explained why its not a retcon. Its cool you got to play through those scenarios though. I would have loved to but my group of BT players went all gung ho for clan stuff to the point they were making all IIC versions of everything and just killed it for me.

when those came out there were no clans yet, thankfully. Clan Power Creep Munchkinism was indeed a plague once 1990 arrived, though.

[Rock Roller]

How long is from the time one pre sales ends before another is announced? To tell you the truth I haven't paid attention in the past.

[Metus regem]

Rock Roller, on 31 August 2016 - 02:38 PM, said:

How long is from the time one pre sales ends before another is announced? To tell you the truth I haven't paid attention in the past.

About a month give or take.