20517 replies to this topic

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 September 2016 - 07:07 PM, said:

my latest 3025 mech for my campaign (eventually I'll get to play it!)

Basically, it's a "what if" the Wolfhound Project had been run like contracts are handled today, with multiple manufacturers in the running, trying to meet the objective in different ways, hoping to win the contract.

In this case, it's an entry from General Motors. They basically downsized their GM Marauder chassis, to build a 35 ton mech, hoping to capitalize on the popularity of the Marauder mech. By adding 4 JJs to the torsos, GM matched the movement profile of the DCMS Panther, along with it's overall armor levels. Likewise they retained one of the Magna Hellstar PPCs, moved to the right torso dorsal mount, allowing it to match the Panther's long range punch.

For in-fighting, they chose to forgo the Panther's SRMs, and instead mounted a quartet of Magna MKII Medium Lasers, 2 per arm, allowing for not only a heavier punch but much quicker responsiveness in CQB scenarios. A pair of hand actuators were included to allow it better hand to hand capabilities, versatility as a raider, etc. As a final touch, a single 20mm chain gun was mounted just beneath the cockpit to deal with any infantry threats it might encounter in the Urban Battlefields it was intended for.


While a capable design, able to best Panthers and Jenners in combat trials, it was essentially too similar to the Panther's they were to be facing. It did last all the way to the final testing against TharHes Industries WLF-X Wolfhound design. There, the Wolfhounds greater speed and tactical flexibility was just too apparent, and as such, the contract was granted for the Wolfhound. The "Mini-MAD" as it had been dubbed, was to be shipped back to Kathil along with the nearly dozen prototypes, but the shipment was apparently hijacked en route, and never arrived back at the GM factories.

Thoughts?

I like it, I really do... she runs a little hot (26 max heat with only 10 SHS) but workable with proper firing and moving discipline.

[Odanan]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 September 2016 - 07:07 PM, said:

my latest 3025 mech for my campaign (eventually I'll get to play it!)
(...)
Thoughts?

To make it more effective, I would do this:

• Replace all 4 medium lasers by small lasers; (use PPC in long/medium ranges and small lasers in short range)
  
• Increase the Engine 1 step;
  
• Remove the Machinegun.

But sure, considering how awful are the stock mechs, your design, even if not that bad, is pretty convincing.

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 08 September 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

To make it more effective, I would do this:

• Replace all 4 medium lasers by small lasers; (use PPC in long/medium ranges and small lasers in short range)
  
• Increase the Engine 1 step;
  
• Remove the Machinegun.

But sure, considering how awful are the stock mechs, your design, even if not that bad, is pretty convincing.

Small lasers are all but useless in TT. At 3 hex range you have a +4 to hit penalty. And it's not like you are going to stack them with the PPC. This is 3025. PPC for range, 4 medium lasers up close, and it has 11 heat sinks.

Realistically, if I went with your approach, the "better" approach would be to use 2x Medium Laser over 4x Small laser. The heat difference is minimal, as is the Damage. But having 3x the range? And more importantly, what is long range for smalls is short range for mediums. So for a bit you overlap the MLasers and PPC, and then when you get below PPC ranage, you bleed off the excess heat anyhow. But you are going to get higher avg dmg with the MLs over the SLs because of having more time in range, and lower to hit penalties, in most scenarios.

Yes I could have made a meta mech, but that is boring.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 08 September 2016 - 12:49 PM.

[dervishx5]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 September 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

Small lasers are all but useless in TT. At 3 hex range you have a +4 to hit penalty. And it's not like you are going to stack them with the PPC. This is 3025. PPC for range, 4 medium lasers up close, and it has 11 heat sinks.

Yes I could have made a meta mech, but that is boring.

At what point does it stop being intentionally not-meta and simply bad? Not saying your design is bad (because I don't care about fan designs), but there's got to be a line somewhere.

[Pariah Devalis]

dervishx5, on 08 September 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

At what point does it stop being intentionally not-meta and simply bad? Not saying your design is bad (because I don't care about fan designs), but there's got to be a line somewhere.

I mean, some parts of the design make sense. If TT, infantry is a possibility and having a machine gun or pulse lasers would help a bit. I also wouldn't say the mech looks bad. PPC and Med Las sounds potent enough for its weight.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 08 September 2016 - 12:11 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

dervishx5, on 08 September 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

At what point does it stop being intentionally not-meta and simply bad? Not saying your design is bad (because I don't care about fan designs), but there's got to be a line somewhere.

When the only consideration is maximizing effectiveness against other mechs, to the point it has no lore /fluff flavor, it's not interesting to me.

[dervishx5]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 September 2016 - 12:36 PM, said:

When the only consideration is maximizing effectiveness against other mechs, to the point it has no lore /fluff flavor, it's not interesting to me.

So mechs designed to primarily kill other mechs are meta?

I mean I generally find the lame cheesy meta to be the stat maximizers like pulse + TC or mass TAG spam.

Edited by dervishx5, 08 September 2016 - 12:39 PM.

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 September 2016 - 12:36 PM, said:

When the only consideration is maximizing effectiveness against other mechs, to the point it has no lore /fluff flavor, it's not interesting to me.

heh, makes me think of an interesting discussion going on, on the HBS boards, between myself, Bombast and Hatchy... it started with Hatchy saying that the Bushy is out right bad when compared to the Rajin, but has evolved into a caparison between the SHD-2Hb and the BSW-S2..

[dervishx5]

Metus regem, on 08 September 2016 - 12:40 PM, said:

heh, makes me think of an interesting discussion going on, on the HBS boards, between myself, Bombast and Hatchy... it started with Hatchy saying that the Bushy is out right bad when compared to the Rajin, but has evolved into a caparison between the SHD-2Hb and the BSW-S2..

The Raijin blows. I kinda like the look of it but the original design lacks armor and heat capacity. I had to use those things all the time and I never wish to again.

[WarHippy]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 September 2016 - 07:07 PM, said:

my latest 3025 mech for my campaign (eventually I'll get to play it!)

Basically, it's a "what if" the Wolfhound Project had been run like contracts are handled today, with multiple manufacturers in the running, trying to meet the objective in different ways, hoping to win the contract.

In this case, it's an entry from General Motors. They basically downsized their GM Marauder chassis, to build a 35 ton mech, hoping to capitalize on the popularity of the Marauder mech. By adding 4 JJs to the torsos, GM matched the movement profile of the DCMS Panther, along with it's overall armor levels. Likewise they retained one of the Magna Hellstar PPCs, moved to the right torso dorsal mount, allowing it to match the Panther's long range punch.

For in-fighting, they chose to forgo the Panther's SRMs, and instead mounted a quartet of Magna MKII Medium Lasers, 2 per arm, allowing for not only a heavier punch but much quicker responsiveness in CQB scenarios. A pair of hand actuators were included to allow it better hand to hand capabilities, versatility as a raider, etc. As a final touch, a single 20mm chain gun was mounted just beneath the cockpit to deal with any infantry threats it might encounter in the Urban Battlefields it was intended for.


While a capable design, able to best Panthers and Jenners in combat trials, it was essentially too similar to the Panther's they were to be facing. It did last all the way to the final testing against TharHes Industries WLF-X Wolfhound design. There, the Wolfhounds greater speed and tactical flexibility was just too apparent, and as such, the contract was granted for the Wolfhound. The "Mini-MAD" as it had been dubbed, was to be shipped back to Kathil along with the nearly dozen prototypes, but the shipment was apparently hijacked en route, and never arrived back at the GM factories.

Thoughts?

I like it a lot. I personally might fiddle with the load out a bit, but overall that seems solid.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 08 September 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

I mean, some parts of the design make sense. If TT, infantry is a possibility and having a machine gun or pulse lasers would help a bit. I also wouldn't say the mech looks bad. PPC and Med Las sounds potent enough for its weight.

and there are no pulse lasers in 3025.

4 medium lasers gives it close range firepower basically exceeded on average, only by the Jenner, which with only 10 SHS, runs hotter and can only use it's SRM4 sparingly. A Wolfhound could tie in it's Large Laser, but that adds an even bigger chunk of heat. Javelin and Commando can potentially do more damage, but since they rely on missiles for their firepower, their actual average damage is lower.

With 11 heatsinks, it can fire it's PPC while walking for no heat, or it's MLs with only 2 heat build up. if it Jumps, it fires only 3 lasers. Between that and 6.5 tons of armor, as a straight battler it hold up against any other 3025 Light. The issue is, like the Panther or Urbanmech (and to some degree, the Valkyrie) it comes at the cost of Light Mech mobility. And that is where the Wolfhound has it beat... speed, and thus, tactical flexibility.

If I'm playing your typical lack of imagination MWO type campaign, then the MG becomes superfluous. If I play a REAL campaign, with Infantry, ambushes, etc? The MG makes perfect sense.

Which is the beauty of 3025. No free lunch. Uncork SLDF tech and I can make mechs that will beat and 3 stock 3025 mechs of equal or lesser tonnage.

Sadly, over at the HBS forums, I see plenty of people pushing their plans for all Energy/No Ammo explosion meta boats. Hoping HBS has enough balancers that the game retains more of it's Btech soul than MWO did.

[Bishop Steiner]

dervishx5, on 08 September 2016 - 12:38 PM, said:

So mechs designed to primarily kill other mechs are meta?

I mean I generally find the lame cheesy meta to be the stat maximizers like pulse + TC or mass TAG spam.

No. A mech that is intentionally optimized to remove any possible things like ammo explosions, and have perfect heat neutral weapon brackets, etc, but also is, largely only built for fighting other mechs. Another way one could look at them is as "Solaris" designs, where one has no other considerations to build around.

Even the Wolfhound is borderline Munchkin Mech. Great part? Get it in a city and my inferno equipped infantry will have afield day with it.

In my experience too many people think too 1 dimensional "mechwarrior" when designing mechs, or have played in too many campaigns where the GMs really never maximize the potential of conventional units.

[Bishop Steiner]

WarHippy, on 08 September 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

I like it a lot. I personally might fiddle with the load out a bit, but overall that seems solid.

Thanks. I like to intentionally not maximize every detail, or add non conventional design parameters, etc. The MG for instance is something most people will look at as an afterthought. Others will look at having the full hands as a negative, because it can't swing it's MLs into the rear arc. But for gameplay and story considerations, having the MG is very useful in urban environments.
Hands not only allow for H2H combat but also make it easier to pick up objects on raids, move barricades and obstacles, be used in SaR work, such as recovering downed pilots, etc.

None of that matters on your basic 4 mech vs 4 mechs on a open field map sheet... but I stopped building along those criteria years ago. I pretty much every Solaris custom mech match I ever entered in the early 90s at conventions. I find making "lore friendly" mechs more interesting.

[dervishx5]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 September 2016 - 12:52 PM, said:

No. A mech that is intentionally optimized to remove any possible things like ammo explosions, and have perfect heat neutral weapon brackets, etc, but also is, largely only built for fighting other mechs. Another way one could look at them is as "Solaris" designs, where one has no other considerations to build around.

Even the Wolfhound is borderline Munchkin Mech. Great part? Get it in a city and my inferno equipped infantry will have afield day with it.

In my experience too many people think too 1 dimensional "mechwarrior" when designing mechs, or have played in too many campaigns where the GMs really never maximize the potential of conventional units.

So something like this.

Edited by dervishx5, 08 September 2016 - 01:08 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

dervishx5, on 08 September 2016 - 01:04 PM, said:

So something like this.

yup. That's a good example. Mind you, having a few "pure battlers" mixed in is fine, and sensible. But too many people want every single mech to be that (just see MWO). Which can haunt you against a mean GM.

[dervishx5]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 September 2016 - 01:14 PM, said:

yup. That's a good example. Mind you, having a few "pure battlers" mixed in is fine, and sensible. But too many people want every single mech to be that (just see MWO). Which can haunt you against a mean GM.

IE me. Random aerospace strafing tends to fix a lot of problems I perceive.

[Metus regem]

dervishx5, on 08 September 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

IE me. Random aerospace strafing tends to fix a lot of problems I perceive.

Infantry with flamers and demolition packs do a wonderful job too... as do SRM carriers.... and Tech 2 Demolisher tanks...

[Bishop Steiner]

dervishx5, on 08 September 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

IE me. Random aerospace strafing tends to fix a lot of problems I perceive.

By all means, strafe that city you're trying to capture. Catch it on fire around your own forces, etc. *shrugs *

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 08 September 2016 - 10:57 AM, said:

I like it, I really do... she runs a little hot (26 max heat with only 10 SHS) but workable with proper firing and moving discipline.

Well, she ain't meant to alpha. Long Range: 12 heat if running 11 Heat sinks. Short Range: 14 heat if running, 11 heatsinks.
Not really meant to overlap.

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 September 2016 - 03:45 PM, said:

Well, she ain't meant to alpha. Long Range: 12 heat if running 11 Heat sinks. Short Range: 14 heat if running, 11 heatsinks.
Not really meant to overlap.

Like I said, with proper discipline.... I just know too many tools that would alpha strike with it....